Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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The way shias have been treated in Pakistan in the last 20 years is a shame and a disgrace. The shias are probably more safer in india than in today’s Pakistan. It is especially sad because Pakistan was created for all muslims and not just one sect

http://www.shaheedfoundation.org/Eventlists.asp

http://www.shaheedfoundation.org/Eventlists.asp?whichpage=2&pagesize=10&sqlQuery=select+%2A+from+Event

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

No doubt, Pakistan hasn't been very kind to its Shia population.

But I still think the situation is better than in India. In India, it doesnt matter what sect of Islam you follow...Muslims in general occupy the lowest rung of Indian society, and face discrimination in education, employment, housing, etc....according to some studies they're even more backwards as a group than the Untouchables. Not to mention the periodic riots that claim the lives of a few thousand people every couple of years...Also, India has its share of sectarian strife too...every Moharram there are Sunni-Shia clashes in all the major cities with large Shia populations...Lucknow, Hyderabad, Delhi, etc

India has plenty of things going for it...but its definitely not a hospitable place for the average *Muslim *(meaning other than the 0.5% who have found success in bollywood & politics)...

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

for the information of those who keep "worrying" about the "plight" of muslims in india..this is what that should be known before commenting on their "plight"

-the number of poor hindus would exceed the entire muslim population in india. So keep this in mind before telling about discrimination.
-Muslims are heavily concentrated in states like UP, Bihar, West bengal, Assam and kerela. All these states are very backward and go and check out the plight of non muslims also in these states. You will get an idea as to whether there is any discrimination or not or everyone being discriminated. And two of these states are communist ruled states(west bengal and kerela). Because of their socialist policies unemployment is spread amongst every other community(not just muslim) in these two states.

Let me say one more thing about kerela. 25% of the population in kerela is muslim and it is the only state in india which has achieved 100% literacy. So even all muslims are literate over there. How come they are literate over there if there was discrimination??... and Hyderabad is majority muslim. It is one of the most advanced cities in india...So don't comment on something just because it serves your purpose.

If so worried about muslims problems in india, why did you leave in 1947??..If you had stayed back, there wouldn't have been no such problems. All this sangh parivar, and other hindu orgs would have had no other option but to shut up as muslim population too would have substantially high almost on par of hindu population. And now don't think i am willing to allow back a set of people who always have the confusion of whether to consider kafirs as friends or as enemies and also keep living in confusion eternally whether religion and state should be seperate or not.

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Let me be very honest about my opinion as to why shia-sunni clashes are not frequent in india. For shias and sunnis in india, as such internal clash will make ummah weaker within the country and it will only strengther their opponent --->hindu based organization. For them unity is strength.

Not all muslims may perceive or look at things in this way. Such type of muslims usually are sane enough not to consider anyone as opponents(be it from other religions or their own muslims) and want to live peacefully. But some muslims who indeed look at shia or sunnis with a discriminating attitude, know that their bigger opponent is else where and not their own. So infighting is bad.

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

That is true no doubt...but also statistically irrelevant. Of course there are more poor Hindus...India's population is 80% Hindu!

To get an accurate picture of the situation, you need to look at statistics for the population as a whole. And based on whatever statistical information that we have, Muslims are by far the most socioeconomically backwards group in India...just take a look at the Sachar Committee Report, which found that Muslims are significantly underrepresented in the government, the corporate world, institutions of higher learning, etc...in fact, the only place where they were overrepresented was in prisons.

Really? Then why are Muslims so underrepresented in government employment even in these communist states?

Muslims make up 25% of West Bengal's population, but only account for 4.2% of state employees. In Kerala, Muslims are 20% of the population, but 10.4% of government employees.

Fine, the government in Kerala ensures that even Muslims get an elementary school education...

But if there's no discrimination, why are they so poorly represented in the government services there?

First of all, Hyderabad is not a mostly Muslim city. The population is no more than 40% Muslim. And the overwhelming majority of those Muslims live in poverty in the in slums of the old city...not the posh suburbs you must be thinking of.

I wasn't born in 1947, so the question is irrelevant to me.

My father's family never left for Pakistan.

And if you must know, my mother's family was forcibly expelled by your "secular" government.

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

*“…That the community lags behind other groups in Kerala is shameful, for this has occurred despite Muslims having political clout in the shape of the League. Mohamad attributes this to the fact that Muslim organisations have still not charted out a long-term plan to consider aspects related to education and other social issues. There’s no space for intellectual thought, or for a think tank, even in the Muslim League, he adds. *
*
As a thumb rule, the community falls prey to ‘trends’, with little or no thought given to what following them would achieve. This, Mohamad says, is reflected in the way schools are started with poorly qualified teachers, with no attention being paid to the qualitative aspects. A ‘trend’ earlier was to start Arabic colleges, and now the focus is on opening B Ed institutes, says Mohamad. The community itself needs to take the initiative to work out a concrete plan to improve its own, he adds. The Narendran Commission report echoes this line of thought. ‘If the Muslim community and its leaders take more interest in the matter of education and make a concerted effort, this community can also reach a similar level of educational advancement [as the Ezhavas] in the not-distant future,’ it predicts”

*http://www.indiatogether.org/2007/aug/edu-muslimedu.htm

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

And as far as the original topic is concerned...I've seen Indian police beating azadars with lathis and firing tear gas canisters into the crowds during Muharram in Srinagar with my own eyes.

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

I have many Indian Muslim friends . Infact my best and I mean THE BEST friend is an indian Muslim . He barracks for indian crickt team and support and love india just as much if not more as we do for pakistan . There is no problem in India with Muslims . More muslims live in India than in Pakistan and are better of and happy there

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

I don’t have anything more to say than to paste this link and highlight important points. And BTW, i too had worked on contract for a public sector org for 2 years. Yes, there were muslims working just like me with muslim outlook in full form. Though i never calculated the percentage and cannot do it also.

NEW DELHI: Forget all half-baked opinions you may have heard on the economic state of religious communities in India. Truth be told, at the national level, Hindus and Muslims are closer than you thought as far as average household income, expenditure, savings and even ownership of select consumer goods go.

**In fact, in rural India, the gap between the two communities’ narrows appreciably and even reverses in some cases in favour of Muslims. Not surprisingly, the Sikhs are the most prosperous lot in India, with highest household income, expenditure and ownership of cars, two-wheelers, TV sets and refrigerators. Christians and other smaller communities don’t lag too far behind either. **

**Hindu ****61,423 **
**Muslim ****58,420 **
**Christian ****70,644 **
**Sikh ****91,153 **
**Others ****101,105 **

**Average annual household income (Rs At 2004-05 prices) **

**In the first ever exercise mapping the economic contours of different religious communities in India, ET presents an exclusive peek into the National Council of Applied Economic Research’s (NCAER) data analysis from its National Survey of Household Income and Expenditure (2004-05), which was led by senior fellow Rajesh Shukla. **

**The survey collected primary data from a sample of approximately 63,000 households out of preliminary listed sample of 4,40,000 households spread over 1,976 villages (250 districts) and 2,255 urban wards (342 towns) covering 64 National Sample Survey (NSS) regions in 24 states/UTs. **

**If you thought Muslims alone were steeped in poverty, read on. Hindus and Muslims, at a national level, run neck-and-neck on average annual household income (AHI) of Rs 61, 423 and Rs 58,420, respectively. **

Or, to put it differently, an average Hindu household has an income of Rs 168 per day, while an average Muslim household earns Rs 160 a day. In rural India, an average Hindu AHI is Rs 49,077 with Muslim close behind with AHI of Rs 47,805. **On income parameters, at least, Hindus and Muslims are, indeed, bhai-bhai. **

Marketers planning an ethnographic pitch to grab mindshare or policy makers preparing ground for affirmative action may do good to remember that **an average Muslim household, at the national level, spends more than a Hindu one, with annual household routine expenditure (AHRE) at Rs 40,327 compared to Rs 40,009 for the latter. **

**Sikh household AHRE is highest at Rs 60,475 with Christians at Rs 45,291. In rural India, Muslim AHRE (Rs 33,711) is higher than Hindu (Rs 32,555) and compares well with Christian (Rs 38,068). **

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/Economy/Indicators/Muslims_spend_more_than_Hindu_peers/articleshow/msid-1858719,curpg-1.cms

Chat ki Fruit Chaat
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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

If this is statistically irrerelevant, then quoting other data about % unemployment of muslims must also be statistically irrelevant. Atleast there must be provision to make it irrelevant if things are looked in other ways. Muslims should come forward to work, educated in mainstream subjects and compete(which many muslims are already doing). Most of the muslims i have seen prefer to do or start their own business, like cloth merchants and metal trading. and No denying there will be some discrimination which is something even hindus experience along caste lines. BTW,More number of muslims have been killed in pakistan and bangladesh than in india. should that mean muslims get discriminated more in pakistan than in india?..I don't think it is.

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

From the Sachar Committee Report:

Education
The literacy rate among Muslims in 2001 (59.1%) is far below the national average (65.1%). SCs/STs are still the lowest literate group both in urban and rural India. (Pg. 52)

In the premier colleges in the country, only one out of the 25 Under-Graduate students (4%) and one out of 50 Post-Graduate students (2%) was a Muslim.(Pg. 69).

Muslims are grossly underrepresented in the elite Indian Institutes of Management (IIMs) and the Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs). Enrolment data for the years 2004-5 and 2005-6 show Muslims were only 1.3% of the total number of students in all the IIM courses. In case of the IITs, out of 27,161 students enrolled in all the courses, only 894 (3.3%) were Muslims. (Pgs. 68-69).
**
Employment**
The participation of Muslims in regular jobs in urban areas is quite limited compared to even the traditionally disadvantaged SCs/STs. (Pg. 94).

Compared to other SRCs (Scheduled Castes), Muslim workers are more vulnerable as they are concentrated in the informal sector characterised by low wages, bad working conditions and little or no social security. (Pg.104).

The participation of Muslims in the professional and managerial cadre is low. (Pg.104).

**Access to Credit
**Since a much higher percentage of Muslim workers are self-employed, the need for access to credit to them is the greatest. Despite this data shows that they are far behind others in terms of access to credit. (Pg. 136).

But Muslims’ share in loan accounts is much lower than their population share and their share in loan amounts outstanding is even worse. (Pg. 125).

On an average, the amount outstanding (indicator of loans sanctioned) per account for Muslims is about half that for other minorities and only one-third of ‘Others’. (Pg. 126).

The record of specialized lending institutions such as the Small Industries Development Bank of India (SIDBI) and the National Bank for Agricultural and Rural Development (NABARD) is worse than that of the Scheduled Commercial Banks. (Pgs. 134-135).

During the six years period 2000-01 to 2005-06, of the total amount of Rs. 26,593 crores disbursed by SIDBI, Muslims received a paltry Rs. 124 crores (less than 0.5 %). (Pg. 134).

NABARD has done no better. During the two years 2004-05, 2005-06, Muslims received only 3.2% of the total production credit and 3.9% of investment credit. (Pg. 135).

Some banks have identified a number of Muslim concentration areas as ‘negative geographical zones’ where bank credit and other facilities are not easily provided. (Pg. 136).

**Poverty
**Muslims face fairly high levels of poverty. On the whole, their condition is only slightly better than that of SCs/STs. When compared to other SRCs, urban Muslims face much higher relative deprivation than Muslims in rural India. (Pg. 153).

For the year 2004-05, the all India average Mean per Capita Expenditure (at current prices) for urban areas was Rs. 1,105. In comparative terms the figures were, upper caste Hindus (Rs.1,469), Other Minorities (Rs.1,485), OBC Hindus (Rs.955), Muslims (Rs. 804) and SCs/STs (Rs. 793). Thus, the MPCE of upper caste Hindus was nearly 80% more than that of Muslims and SCs/STs. (Pg. 153).

**Government Jobs
**The presence of Muslims was found to be only 3% in the IAS, 1.8% in the IFS and 4% in the IPS. (Pg. 165).

Muslims have a representation of only 4.5% in Indian Railways. Almost all (98.7%) of them are positioned at lower levels. (Pg. 167).

Share of Muslims in security agencies is around 4%. (Pg. 168).

In no state does the representation of Muslims in the government departments match their population share. (Pg. 171).

And it goes on...

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Wow...this is like pulling teeth.

The absolute number of impoverished Hindus is statistically irrelevant if we are trying to compare to a relatively small minority population. You need percentages.

Hypothetically, lets say we have a country of 1000 people, where 95% of the population (950 people) belongs to community X, and 5% of the population (50 people) belongs to community Y. And in this country 10% of community X would be considered poor (95 people), while 80% of community Y (40 people) would be considered poor. Now, in this case, in absolute numbers, there are more than twice as many poor people from community X (95 vs. 40 in community Y)...and yet, statistically, community X is still 'better off' as a greater percentage of its population is not poor(90% of community X is rich, while only 20% of community Y is). Get it now?

And I thought Indians were supposed to be good at math.

The vast majority of Muslims are getting 'mainstream' educations. Only 4% of Muslim children attend madrassas. But there's only so much people can do when there are fundamental problems in access to educational facilities and resources, and significant discrimination in admissions. My father was educated in the Indian school system...I've heard what its like for Muslims.

What is that based on? If you factor in the number of civilians butchered by your brave javans in Kashmir, I'm sure it far outweighs the deaths in sectarian clashes in Pakistan.

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

I dont know why christians are more educated than hindus in India. Do u see why. Because there is a wish for them to learn. Not reciting religious books but proper scientific learning. Religion has to be placed secondary to scientific learning. In christian schools thats what they teach. They have a normal curriculum with emphasis on proper learning and then they have sunday schools. Muslims also should make an effort to learn and achieve success in life. But if you sit at home believing u will anyway succeed after death will only make life difficult in real life.
Major colleges and schools across india are run by one christian denomination or another. But hardly any muslim university of any repute has been around for a while. Aligrah Muslim university has now become hot bed for terrorism. Jamia-Islamia university in Andhra pales in comparison to hyderabad central university.
Besides also the wealthy rich muslims in Indian sub continent left india for Pakistan and left the poor in India. The rich muslims in present day India should make an effort to uplift their community members.
In the present indian set up, those who have tried always succeeded. An example is Abdul Kalam. Son of a fisherman would not have made it if there was negative discrimination.

!! Mera Jee Chahta Hai !!
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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Iam amazed how people engineer the facts to make their case.

In Pakistan, apart from few families ( may be 5-6% of population) every one is sufferering from all the possible evils, may it be security, may it be unemployement.. u name it, in a way or other 95% of Pakistani people ( regardless of their believes, race and color) are suffering.

The uneven division of the wealth, lowering education standads and lack of opportunities, has created frustration and anger, now this anger/frustation is exploited by enemies of Pakistan and Islam. People are killing people in the name of religion or ethinic division, but the prime purpose for them ( killers) is to make (easy) money and get rich.

The Random Thread
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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Great.

And as I pointed out above when someone else made a similar point, according to recent research less than 4% of Indian Muslim school children are educated at madarsas. Just because Indian society has stereotyped Muslims as shunning all things modern (perhaps to justify to justify the shoddy treatment it mets out to them), doesn't make it true.

Thank you for demonstrating for everyone here yet another reason why being a Muslim in India is a miserable existence. AMU is a perfectly fine university, where more than half of the students aren't even Muslim. But because it is associated with the Muslim population, Indians like yourself naturally assume that its associated with 'terrorism' and 'anti-national elements.' The fundamental assumption among you people is that anyone with a Muslim name must be a terrorist, or a closet-Pakistani....perhaps one of the reasons Christians are more successful in India is because they don't have to deal with these absurd stereotypes.

I'm an American-born, US citizen, and I've traveled extensively in Europe and the Middle East. Honest to God, the only place in the world that I have ever been openly discriminated against was in India.

You can trot out that one example every time someone criticizes the was Muslims are treated in India. First of all, from what I've gathered from his interviews, Abdul Kalam is a Bhagavad Gita-reading, devotee of Rama who happens to have a Muslim name...in other words, he's the BJP's ideal, completely Hindu-ized "Muslim."

And in any case, you can't bring out one or two examples and pretend that there are no problems...yes, Abdul Kalam was president, but at the same time, despite making up 15% of the population, their representation in the Lok Sabha and the Council of Ministers is just 6%. Honestly, its like someone pointing out that there have been a handful of Black senators in the US, so there is no discrimination against black people here....

Timepass
Timepass
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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Are Muslims being pushed/held down and not given any rights by the government in main parts of India(i'm not talking about kashmir because that part is still disputed til today with all the militants running around)? Maybe the Muslim community leaders need to take an initiative to make and stress that academic education for their community is the most important and the key to success. Many times Muslim girls in places other than Kerala get married at a very young age not finishing college. Why? Another Indian muslim guppy on GS had said that his mother being a teacher tried her hardest to get Muslims in their community to a school to educate them so their futures would be bright but they weren't interested in it at all. Is this the fault of the teacher or the government? Nope.

Even Muslims in the UK usually stay in their own community and don't really mix with others. Why is that? There was a thread on GS talking about this exact subject....I can't remember the title right now.

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

NO PUN INTENDED

I have a very best friend Indian Muslim. Who hates India so much and always support Pakistan team due the fact what he has to go through.

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Good for him, he should be safe in Pakistan then and bring his family over from India. Would Pakistan allow something like this? If Indian Muslims want to come over to Pakistan in huge groups because they hate India, would Pakistan allow it.
The one or two Indian Muslims I know love India so much.

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

The situation in Kashmir is obviously worse than it is in the rest of the country (though, contrary to popular belief, there are less than 1500 foreign militants in Kashmir...and that's according to the Indian army's figures).

But that hardly changes the fact that there is systematic discrimination against Muslims throughout the country. If you have a Muslim name in India, there is a fundamental assumption that you are secretly Pakistani, and a terrorist...and so you get treated quite poorly.

Even buying a house a nice neighborhood becomes an ordeal. There was recently a story in the Indian media about how even famous, wealthy Muslim Bollywood and TV actors weren't being allowed to buy apartments in the elite areas of Bombay...people like Shabana Azmi and Emraan Hashmi had property brokers telling them 'we don't sell to Muslims.'

Like I said before, India has a lot of things going for it...a functioning civilian government, rapid economic growth, stability...but based on my experiences, and the experiences of my relatives in both countries...as a Muslim I would much rather be in Pakistan.

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Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Well before you jump to the conclusion, he is safe in USA. Now you can continue bad mouthing about Pakistan.