Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
And Adam was?
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
LastOfTheDinosaurs,
The identity of Hephthalites (aka White Huns) is hotly debated on whether they were Iranic or Turkic. I strongly believe that they were Iranic though: Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos
It is true that Khiljis were Pashtunized Turks. The waves of different peoples migrating from Central Asia into Pakistan-Afghan region occured steadily for centuries. Aryans << Scythians << Parthians << Kushans << Hephthalites << Turks << Mongols. Of course they were eventually absorbed among the locals.
I agree with you on Pakistan’s national language issue. For Pakistan’s long term survival it should be changed from Urdu to Dari/Farsi or Arabic: Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos
Boundaries between all countries are arbitrary. For example, a large portion of Afghanistan (60%) is Tajik, Uzbek, Turkmen, etc despite the fact there are separate countries of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, etc. Almost 25% of Iran is Azeri despite the fact there is a separate country of Azerbaijan, plus Iran’s Khuzistan province is mostly Arab similar to neighboring Iraq, not to mention its Turkmen and Baluch. Also, let’s not forget that Turkmens, Azeris, Uzbeks, etc. are Turkic peoples who are an offshoot of Altaic family (related to Mongolian) distinct from the Indo-Iranians. So no country is perfect and they have to make a case for its identity based on what exists.
At least in Pakistan’s situation all of its people (99%) are linguistically Indo-Iranian, geographically based around Indus river and its tributaries, mostly racially Caucasoid mixed with others, culturally a blend of Muslim and Indo-Iranian roots, followers of the religion of Islam, and have a common Harappan-Aryan-Scythic-Turkic-etc. heritage.
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
Who gives a rats behind in everyday life about their “roots” that deep? Only Historians, now they can go and eat $hit for all I care. When I travel around and I find Muslim(s) I feel connected already, I don’t need to ask them if they were Aryans, Caucasian or any other “ans”, the need to find “roots” is for those who are unable to connect somehow.
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
The Muslim World is in the process of its own (potential) "renaissance"... evolving from a religious fundamentalist mindset to a more secular one... similar what Europeans experienced a few centuries ago.. which might be a very difficult and timely transition... post-911 internal and external factors are also acting as a catalyst for it..
Increasingly... more and more Pakistanis exposed to secularism and modernism are questioning the current/past weak Islamocentric ideologies... and realize the urgent necessity to redefine the Pakistani identity based on not only religion, but also history, culture, race, and language. Islam can unite a people, but its just not enough... and we have proof for it with the creation of Bangladesh.
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
Would you support the division of Afghanistan along ethnic lines aswell if Islam isnt enough of a comman identity as it is in Pakistan?
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
I don’t want to sound rude or disheart you, but Pakistan (pre and post Bengla) has nothing do with “Islam” except for the mantra that Pakistan is a Islamic country, Pakistan’s constitution is based on Islamic principles bla bla bla. Islam has been (ab)used by all political/military rulers to get our sheepy nation’s approval of their manhandling of country’s constitution, institutions, wealth etc.
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
This is the most idiotic thread after we discussed ‘who hates Pakistan’.
In other gatherings these people try to convince us that there is no dissimilarity among Muslims on the basis of blood and race.
And here a majority of them is dying hard to declare that they carry an Arab-Afghan blood in their veins.
So Muhajirs are second class citizens? Is it so?
Ps, First ask Arabs, if they are ready to consider your wish!
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
care to list out that “majority”?
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
Pakistanis are not Arabs, Afghans, Persians, Turks, or Indians!
Pakistanis are just Pakistanis.... a blend of Middle Eastern, Central Asian, and South Asian elements.... Linguistically Indo-Iranian, geographically based around Indus river and its tributaries, mostly racially Caucasoid mixed with others, culturally a blend of Muslim and Indo-Iranian roots, followers of the religion of Islam, and a common Harappan-Aryan-Scythic-Turkic-etc. heritage.
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
You are living in some fantastic (Thomas Morian) world where you consider yourself a universal citizen independent of territorial bonds, group affinity, and cultural and liguistic affiliations. The reality is, being rootless, you cannot connect yourself to anything immediate and “concrete” so are identifying with an “abstract and utopian” notion i.e. the “Muslim Nationhood” which never was and which never would be. Realistic/rational historians should not eat ****; only those living in the glorious past of Islam and feeding Pan-Islamic utopia to the simple-minded.
We are talking of something that is tangible and on the ground i.e. our nationality and our citizenship.
By the way Pakistanis are called “Maskins” by Arabs, brothers in Islam, for their poverty and worker status in Arab countries.
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
The geographies of the these are imposed and colonially drawn. Moreover, ethnicities and cultural entities have always outlived political and administrative orders. So many kingdoms and empires are under the debris of history but communities held together by common territory, common culture, common history, common language and ethnicity have survived.
All these may be favorable (but not sufficient) factors but where is an “equitable contract”…a genuine democratic federation with fair control to units?
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
Corruption is a different issue that any govt can indulge in whether its religious or secular. But so far religion has been used as a tool to manipulate the ignorant masses by the exploitive rulers for their vested interests. It has only given Pakistan a full dose of terrorism, sectarian violence, and instability. It is true that “true” Islam is not followed (at least in my secular context)… but there can never be “a” true Islam since different people will always interpret it differently and again leading to violence/insability… The best thing to do is leave religion as a personal matter and not make it interfere in the state affairs.
As far as state affairs are concerned, a strong national identity is vital to any nation’s long term survival. Since religion alone cannot unite a people (there will always be many different Muslim countries) and only Islam as the basis of Pakistan’s existence is obviously a very weak national identity. It is only logical that the basis of Pakistan’s existence (national identity) be emphasized more on a combination of common religion, race, culture, geography, history, and language.
Bangladesh’s creation was inevitable whether Pakistan was going to be a “true” Islamic state or not… because the cultural/geographic/racial/historical differences would only serve as catalyst to any injustice or foreign interference leading to their separation.
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
Afghanistan was an empire held together by internal interests and interests of big powers. Now that monarchy has gone, it depends how would harmony, fair share of power, and balance among different ethnic groups be achieved. If that could be done, Afghanistan would survive otherwise it would disintegrate.
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
I agree.. a fair and democratic federal govt is the key here along with a strong national identity composed of commonality in religion, race, culture, language, history, etc.
Yes all boundaries of these regions were created by the British, Russian, and French colonialists. However, creating newer boundaries based on ethnic lines is almost impossible and will open a pandora box of infinite ethnic violence. This is because many regions are multi-ethnic.
Another thing to note is that ethnicities are constantly evolving dependent on their environments… and geo-political boundaries can certainly influence them in the long run…
This might not be possible in the present political circumstances, but opening borders where the same ethnic people are divided will be beneficial to them…
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
Paqkistan4Ever, how can you prove that Pakistan with its present territorial limits and as a unified cultural entity ever existed in history? If it was never a part of Mainland India, how does that warrant the merger of Baluchis, Punjabis, etc. into one nation? How can you convince me that I have more in common with Punjabis and Sindhis than with Pashtuns of Afghanistan?
Above all how can you convince me that just Urdu, Islam, Indus and tributories, Harrapan past, and common Aryan, Sythian, etc. roots without a fair contract, autonomy, and genuine federation are enough for me to be part of the new "nationhood".
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
One more question!
It is an obvious fact that Pashtuns, Baluchis, Dards, and Potoharis have no or very little Hindustani affinities, then why are you people pulling us into Indian mold by forcing us to adopt Urdu/Hindi and ignore our own distinct Iranic and Dardic languages...I feel that we are gradually being indianized?
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
No one is living in “glorious past” here, I’m not taking pride in any 900 years “Muslim” rule or hundreds of years of “Khilafah rule”. Why did Muslims from different parts of the world travelled to help Bosnians? Afghanistan? or in other old history? cuz they were “Muslims”. You can deny as much you’d like the existence of “Muslim nationhood” but believe me, you can never grasp what it really means thats why you have to find your “roots” to fill the “gap” inside you.
I already know you are limited to boundaries/geographies.
You are wrong, Arabs call Pakistani “Rafeeq”, not “Miskeen”. Anyway whats the purpose of bringing this up? Feeling weak already? “Muslims” in Arab lands or anyother land respect Pakistani “Muslims”.
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
Captain, I never thought you'd be a fundoo. I'm disappointed.
Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!
LastOfTheDinosaurs,
Like I said before I do support changing Pakistan’s national language from Urdu to Dari/Farsi… and of course the fair contract, local govt autonomy, and genuine federation is also vital !
No doubt, a Pakistani Pashtun will have more commonality with an Afghan Pashtun… but as we discussed previously, boundaries for all countries that exist today in the Middle East, Central Asia, and South Asia were drawn by the European colonialists… and ethnic groups are divided/separated in almost all of these countries. So your concern should not single out Pakistan… its a region-wide problem. Perhaps one day when the socio-econo-political conditions improve these countries will open borders for free movement of the same ethnic groups divided/separated.
By the way, Punjabis/Sindhis are not Hindustanis, as they have their own culture, language, history, identity, etc.
Pakistan as a post-colonial successor state (just like all other countries in the region) is blessed to have a common Indo-Iranian identity. Your dividing of Indo-Iranian into sub-branches of Iranian, Indo-Aryan, and Dardic would be similar to dividing Germanic into North Germanic and South Germanic sub-branches (reference: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90017 ). Also, all ethnic groups of pakistan have a common heritage under the Harappans, Rig Vedic Aryans, Scythians, Kushans, Greco-Bactrians, Hephthalites, Turks, etc. Then there are other factors that are common already discussed in previous posts such as race, culture, economics, geography, defence, etc.