Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Harappans and Rig Vedic Aryans (i.e. ancestors of Pakistanis) were Hindu!

Not a single Hindu idol/deity/temple has been excavated at Indus sites. Plus evidence shows that Harappans ate beef and buried their dead. This is what the renowned historian John Keays states on the religion of Harappans:

*The religion of Harappans is unknown. No site has certainly been identified as a temple and most suppositions about sacrificial fires, cult objects and deities rest on doubtful retrospective references from Hindu practices of many centuries later. Such inferences may be as futile as, say, looking to Islamic astronomy for an explanation of the orientation of the pyramids. In short, these theories are all fanciful and do not bear scrutiny.

Depicted on some Harappan seals, is that of a big-nosed gentleman wearing a horned head-dress who sits in the lotus position, an air of abstraction and an audience of animals. He may not be an early manifestation of Lord Shiva as Pashupati, `Lord of the Beasts.’ Myth, as has been noted, is subject to frequent revision. The chances of a deity remaining closely associated with the specific powers - in this case, fertility, asceticism, and familiarity with the animal kingdom - for all of two thousand years must raise serious doubts, especially since, during the interval, there is little evidence for the currency of this myth. Rudra, a Vedic deity later identified with Shiva, is indeed referred to as Pasupati because of his association with the cattle, but asceticism and meditation were not Rudra’s specialties nor is he usually credited with an empathy for animals other than kine. More plausibly, it has been suggested that the Harappan figure’s heavily horned headgear bespeaks a bull cult, to which numerous other representations of bulls lend substance.

Similar doubts surround the female terracotta figurines which are often described as mother goddesses. Pop-eyed, bat-eared, belted and sometime ministed, they are usually of crude workmanship and grotesque mien. Only a dusty-eyed archaeologist could describe them as `pleasing little things.’ The bat-ears, on closer inspection, appear to be elaborate head dresses or hairstyles. If, as the prominent and clumsily applied breasts suggest, they were fertility symbols, why bother with millinery? Or indeed minists?*

The Harappan seals depicting the sitting man/deity wearing horned headdress (which you claim as so called Shiva) is as follows:

http://www.lugodoc.demon.co.uk/PASHUPAT.JPG

Similar to this Harappan man/deity is the Celtic Cerrunos that was worshiped in ancient Europe:

http://www.lugodoc.demon.co.uk/GUNDEST2.JPG

On the other hand, Hinduism’s Shiva looks totally different:

http://webpages.marshall.edu/~altany/shiva.jpg

So obviously Harappans did not worhip Shiva, not even close! Btw, it is the cow thats worshiped in Hinduism, not the bull! Bull was sacred in many ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern cultures as well.

Now coming to the Aryans.. The concept of Aryan Race is pure BS invented by the Nazis. But what is historically correct is that Aryans were an ancient people who originally inhabited Central Asia and later migrated southwards to the regions stretching from Iran to northwest India. These early Aryans had a similar language, culture, and religion with many variations. Racially they were predominantly Caucasoid. The Aryans of Iran were later influenced by the Elamites and Babylonians. The Aryans of Pakistan were later influenced by the Harappans. The Aryans of north India were later influenced by the Dravidic-Mundic natives (giving birth to Hinduism). Of course in later centuries other peoples invaded/migrated, bringing other influences/mixing.

The Aryans associated with the Rig Veda and Sapta Sindhva (i.e. today’s Pakistan region) were definitely not Hindu because they did not follow the Hindu caste system, they ate beef, sacrifised cows, culturally were closer to Avestan Iranians, forbade idolatry, etc.

Here are some excerpts that support my views:

“The evidence of the Rig Veda shows that during the centuries when the Aryans were occupying the Punjab and composing the hymns of the Rig Veda, the north-west part of the subcontinent was culturally separate from the rest of India. The closest cultural relations of the Indo-Aryans at that period were with the Iranians, whose language and sacred texts are preserved in the various works known as the Avesta, in inscriptions in Old Persian, and in some other scattered documents. So great is the amount of material common to the Rig Veda Aryans and the Iranians that the books of the two peoples show common geographic names as well as deities and ideas”. (Pakistan and Western Asia, By Prof. Norman Brown)

According to A.L. Stravanos on the non-Hindu nature of Rig Vedic Aryans:

*The word Veda means knowledge. There were originally four Vedas, but the most important is the Rigveda, which is also the oldest. The Rigveda is a primary source for study of the early Aryans; it is in essence a collection of 1028 hymns arranged in ten books. Per the Vedas, Aryans worshiped elements of nature in personified forms, and idolatry was forbidden.

In Rig Veda, the gods of Dyaus is the same as the Greek Zeus (Roman Jupiter), Mitra is the same as the Graeco-Roman Mithras, Ushas is the same as the Greek Eos (Roman Aurora), Agni is the same as the Graeco-Roman Ignis.

The image of the Aryans that emerges from Vedic literature is that of a virile people, fond of war, drinking, chariot racing, and gambling. Their god of war, Indra, was an ideal Aryan warrior: ‘he dashed into battle joyously, wore golden armor, and was able to consume the flesh of three hundred buffaloes and drink three lakes of liquor at one time’.

When they first arrived in the South Asia the Aryans were primarily pastoralists. Their economic life centered around their cattle and wealth was judged on the basis of the size of herds. As the newcomers settled in fertile river valleys, they gradually shifted more to agriculture. They lived in villages consisting of a number of related families. Several villages comprised a clan, and several clans a tribe, at the head of which was the king. The king’s authority depended on his personal prowess and initiative, and was limited by the council of nobles, and in some tribes by the freemen.

The outstanding characteristics of this early Aryan society was its basic difference from the later Hinduism. Cows were not worshipped but eaten. Intoxicating spirits were not forsaken but joyously consumed. There were classes but no castes, and the priests were subordinate to the nobles rather than at the top of the social pyramid. In short, Aryan society resembled much more the contemporary Indo-European societies than it did Hinduism that was to develop in later centuries in the Gangetic Valley.*

Further supports how a few Aryans who later migrated eastward towards India slowly became Hindu because of Dravidic-Mundic influences:

*"The castes were hardened by the time the Aryans occupied the middle land i.e., the Gangetic Valley and distinguished themselves from their brethern in Sind and the Punjab who were despised by them for not observing the rules of caste … and for their non-Brahmanical character.” (Sindhi Culture, By U.T. Thakur)

“While some Aryans had by now expanded far into India, their old home in the Punjab, Sind and the north-west was practically forgotten. Later Vedic literature mentions it rarely, and then usually with disparagement and contempt, as an impure land where sacrifices are not performed.” (The Wonder that was India, By A.L. Bhasham)*

This is further supported by Dr. Gurupdesh Singh:

*From geographical information in the RigVeda, the Vedic Period (1500-500BC) was confined to the northwest. The hymns composed by Vedic mystics/poets of the northwest (Saptha Sindhva) tell that the Vedic peoples worshipped non-Brahmanical Gods (Indra, Varuna, Mitra), ate cows, elected their chiefs, drank liqor, considered the Punjab rivers to be sacred, and refer to people living to the south in the gangetic region as “Dasyas”! None of the gangetic Brahmanical gods (e.g Ram, Krishna, Vishnu, Brahma, etc.) are mentioned in RigVeda hyms nor do they appear in connected Aryan Avestan texts and Hittite tablets. Avestan terms for soldiers (“rathaestar”) and citizens (“vastriyo”) are similar to Vedic-derived terms (kshatriyas, vasihyas) but the Avestan term for priest (“athravan”) is not even close to “Brahmanas”. Moreover, central Gangetic religious texts like the Mahabharta and VarnaAshramDharma of Manu call the Vedic Aryans in Saptha Sindhva “mlechas”, “sudras” and “vratyas”; “forbid Brahmins” from even visiting the northwest country (“Vahika-desa”); and depict dark Dravidian Gods like Krishna fighting and defeating Vedic Aryan gods like Indra (Mahabharta). Similarly, the RigVeda contains taboos and injunctions against the “dasya-varta” region to the south of Saptha Sindhva and praises Indra (god of thunderbolt) for victories over “dasya-purahs” (dasya cities).

Both early RigVedic and gangetic Puranic sources clearly point to ethnic, cultural and religious differences and a “clash of civilizations and nations” at the ganga indicating that the Vedic people and culture of the northwest did not accept the gangetic priests, their gods, shastras, religion, culture and Brahmanical caste ideology. The eastern gangetic heartland is not only historically a separate region, but geographically resides over 1500 miles to the southeast of the Saptha Sindhva country. Uptil the advent of Mohammed Ghori in the 13th century, the northwest was politically unified with southasia only 92 years under the Mauryas (out of 27 centuries) since the start of Saptha Sindhva’s Vedic period (1500 BC).

A few Vedic tribes from Saptha Sindhva broke RigVedic norms and migrated southward. These numerically outnumbered groups expanding into the trans-gangetic region near the end of the Vedic period (8-6th century BC) tried to use the indigenous Dravidian priesthood to entrench themselves as the new ruling order. Within a few generations of acquiring control over the foreign Gangasthan, the minority Vedic tribes were usurped by the indigenous “borrowed” priesthood; their Aryan religion, gods and customs mostly deposed and supplanted with indigenous gangetic gods and mythologies; and their new social order (varna or color based) replaced with the pre-existing profession (jati) based Brahmanical caste system (“chatur-varna” ). Through religious manipulation and intrigue, the Vedic in-comers to Gangasthan were usurped and made to surrender their political rule and soon pigeon-holed into becoming the loyal obedient chownkidars of their “superior” dravidic Brahmanas till the rise of Buddhism two centuries later.*

Evidence of early Aryans rejecting idolatry:

*“There is only one God, worship Him” (Rig Veda, Vol. 6, Hymn 45 vs 16 )

“Do not worship any one beside Him” (Rig Veda Bk. 8, Hymn 1, Vs 1)

“They are enveloped in darkness, in other words, are steeped in ignorance and sunk in the greatest depths of misery who worship the uncreated, eternal prakrti—the material cause of the world—in place of the All-pervading God, but those who worship visible things born of the Prakrti, such as the earth, trees, bodies (human and the like) in place of God are enveloped in still greater darkness, in other words, they are extremely foolish, fall into an awful hell of pain and sorrow, and suffer terribly for a long time.”—Yajur Veda 40:9.

“The Formless Supreme Spirit that pervades the universe can have no material representation, likeness or image.”—Yajur Veda 32:3.*

Yet Hindus commit idolatry and defend it as an authorized/integral practice for Hinduism. In fact, Hindu priests world-wide provide prayers, offerings and even bathe miniature idols in milk regularly; pious Hindus across the globe pray to and bow-down before such idols of Krsna, Ram/Sita, Linga (Phallus), Siva, Elephants (Ganesa), Monkeys (Hanuman), Cows (Nandi/etc.), Brahma, Yoni (Vagina), Nude Kali (Naked Dravidian-looking Goddess with a protruding blood-thirsty tongue), Snakes (Nag), Hogs (Varaha - Boar Avatar), Turtles (Kurma - Turtle Avatar), Fish (Matsya - Fish Avatar), etc.

In conclusion, all the evidence shows that Harappans and early Aryans (i.e. ancestors of Pakistanis 3000-500 BC) were non-Hindu! Hindu imperialistic/hegemonic claims have been proven wrong despite their Dravid-Hindu fantasies!

Later on I will also post evidence with non-Pakistani references on how Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and Hellenism were popular in Pakistan for many centuries..

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

o yaar why does it even matter, the ancestors of the most holy figures in our religion were idol worshippers, and their ancestors followed something else and their ancestors followesd something else all the way up to Adam.

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

it is advantageous to be arab muslim since they were the original?

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

Namaste & Salaam!

you have taken great trouble to attempt to show Hinduism didn't exist during the Vedic period. There are many theories abour Aryan invasion also. Nobody simply knows enough.

But there are many inaccuraccies in your post:

  • The bull is very much a revered animal worshipped as the Nandi - most Siva temples will have a prominently placed Nandi facing the deity. * it is therefore wrong to claim Hindus don't worhip bulls*

  • Siva is depicted in many many forms - the dancing Siva that you have provided a image link for is one of the more famous and beautiful one. Siva has taken numerous forms over time in numerous incidents, usually the form suiting the role (avtaar?). it is therefore wrong to state the Harappan seals don't look like Siva

  • Even those who believe in the Aryan invasion theory as well as most Hindus will readily agree that Aryans did not BRING Hinduism into the subcontinent - so yours is no new discovery - Hinduism developed in India, may be with Aryans who had settled there, may be by a mix of races or may be as you say, there was no such thing as Aryans...so what? therefore this is an unconnected obvious data that has no relationship to the conclusion you want to draw

  • Don't know where you draw the line when you say "north west" - in Mahabharatha, Gandhara had a great role to play (Dhridhrashtr married the princes of Gandhara and the great villain Shakuni was her brother) - Gandhara is Afganistan. therefore unless you want redefine north west, no go

  • I don't know what you're trying to say about Mahabharatha war being between the dark skinned and fair skinned - ONLY Krishna (by virtue of being an Avtaar of Vishnu) is said to be dark/blue skinned. The Pandavas are not so described. In fact, both sides (Pandavs & Kauravs) came from the same clan and family ....so what's your point

I can go on about the rather stupid and uniformed data that are numerous in your essay - but the worst of all is the complete ignorance of timeline. It is well documented that the Muslims of the subcontinent were either forcibly coverted by the Mugals, or coered through taxes. And when Pakistan was formed 58 years ago, a whole bunch of muslims from the east moved (and a whole bunch didn't move).

Point is, your facts are wrong, you ignore timeline and you do not connect even your own arguement to your conclusion.

Bye

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

Ancestors of 90% of Pakistanis were Hindus. Don't try covering it up. :D

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

I am glad they were not hindus but I am also glad they were martians.

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

[QUOTE]

  • The bull is very much a revered animal worshipped as the Nandi - most Siva temples will have a prominently placed Nandi facing the deity. * it is therefore wrong to claim Hindus don't worhip bulls* [/QUOTE]

Bull's role is comparitively very weak in Hinduism when compared to the cow. Nandi is only Shiva's guardian and represents fertility. Any way, bull was much more sacred in ancient Mediterranean and Mesopotamian cultures. Sacredness of bull does not equate to Hinduism.

[QUOTE]
* Siva is depicted in many many forms - the dancing Siva that you have provided a image link for is one of the more famous and beautiful one. Siva has taken numerous forms over time in numerous incidents, usually the form suiting the role (avtaar?). it is therefore wrong to state the Harappan seals don't look like Siva
[/QUOTE]

There are no literary evidence on Harappan religion, so we have to rely on excavated artifacts. When the science of archeology supports the fact that not a single Indus statue or seal resembles the Shiva of Hinduism that is known in all forms, then thats evidence against the Shiva theory. The Harappan deity looks similar to the Celtic deity of Cerunnos, so are you saying that ancient Europeans were also Hindu?

[QUOTE]
* Don't know where you draw the line when you say "north west" - in Mahabharatha, Gandhara had a great role to play (Dhridhrashtr married the princes of Gandhara and the great villain Shakuni was her brother) - Gandhara is Afganistan. therefore unless you want redefine north west, no go
[/QUOTE]

Northwest is Pakistan region and bordering regions as its periphery. Gandhara was located in southern Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. One of Gandhara's most important cities was Taxila in present day Punjab. Just because a princess of one country married another country's leader does not mean any thing! Such practices were common in ancient peoples to represent neighborly friendship, alliances/treaties, etc.

[QUOTE]

worst of all is the complete ignorance of timeline.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you did not read my post carefully.. I did mention that I will post facts on how Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and Hellenism flourished in Pakistan for many centuries. I did mention in the post the religions of Harappan and Rig Vedic Aryans (Pakistani ancestors) only covers 3000-600 BC. I

[QUOTE]
t is well documented that the Muslims of the subcontinent were either forcibly coverted by the Mugals, or coered through taxes.
[/QUOTE]

Muslims were taxed as well... its just that non-Muslim tax had a different name. However, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that people were forcebly converted to Islam. The base of Muslim Empires in South Asia was in North India (Delhi & surroundings), yet overwhleming majority of north Indians are Hindu whereas Pakistanis and Bangladeshis who were located at the periphery of the Muslim empires with some sovereignty became Muslims! This simple fact itself proves that Islam was not forced on the peoples in South Asia! What made the people convert en masse to Islam was Sufism, and all well respected scholars agree with that!

[QUOTE]

And when Pakistan was formed 58 years ago, a whole bunch of muslims from the east moved
[/QUOTE]

They represent only 7% of Pakistanis!

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

Facts about the pre-Muslim ancestors of Pakistanis:

  1. Before the advent of Islam, the majority of people in the region of
    Pakistan practised Buddhism, Zoroastrianism (and its derivatives like Mithraism,
    Saurism, Manichaeism, etc.), Animism (nature worship), Paganism (Hellenic
    and other deities), and Shamanism. Harappans ate beef, buried their dead,
    had no Hindu temples/idols/deities, etc. RigVedic Aryans forbade idolatry,
    ate beef, sacrificed cows, had no caste system, were culturally closer to ancient
    Iranians, etc. Under Persian rule, Zoroastrianism started to spread. Similarly,
    Greek Paganism (Hellenism) spread under the Greeks. Ashoka brought Buddhism,
    which was later also propagated along with Zoroastrianism, Animism, Shamanism,
    Hellenism, etc.under the Bactrians, Sakas/Scythians, Parthians, and Kushans for
    many centuries. Hephthalites/White Huns were not very fond of Buddhism,
    but it still remained popular among the masses. Brahmanists and Shaivites were
    a minority in Pakistan. Kafirs of Kalasha, the only people in Pakistan who have
    retained their ancient religion are an example of the non-Hindu religions practised
    by the ancestors of Pakistanis. Gangetic holy Hindu texts call Pakistan region
    as outlandish, sinful, outcaste, mlechas, etc.The pre-Muslim ancestors of most
    Pakistanis never called themselves Hindu nor practised any religion similar to
    present-day Hinduism.Thus, the pre-Muslim ancestors of most Pakistanis had
    nothing to do with Hinduism.

  2. The word/term "Hindu/Hinduism" is a recent construct. It were the
    Muslim invaders who for the first time in history imposed the foreign
    term "Hindu" in South Asia to the countless distinct local religions. The term
    "Hinduism" was given by the British colonialists. Not a single pre-Muslim/British
    era Brahman, Buddhist, Jain, or any other South Asian scripture/inscription
    mentions the word "Hindu/Hinduism". Similarly, "Sanata Dharma" was a term
    invented in the 19th century AD by Brahmanist scholars in their desperate
    attempt to replace the Muslim/British term "Hindu/Hinduism". Such terms are
    artificial in nature because of its origins and meanings. Just because we call all
    Europeans or their descendents as "Goras" it does not make them one people as
    they have many racial, religious, linguistic, cultural, and historical differences. By the
    same token, if the Ghorid Muslim invaders imposed the foreign word/term "Hindu"
    on the non-Muslim peoples of south Asia it does not mean that they were one
    people since there were/are countless different religions, cultures, histories,
    languages, and races in south Asia. Besides, by the time of Ghorid invasions (12th
    century AD), Pakistan region was already mostly Muslim. Most of Pakistan
    region was a part of Arab empires previously and Arabs called them as Sindhis.
    So the Ghorid imposition of the artificial term Hindu was mostly for present day
    north India for their ruled non-Muslim subjects. The bottomline is Pakistanis
    were not Hindus because they never called themselves Hindu nor practised Hinduism.

  3. A significant minority of Pakistanis are descendents of Arab,
    Iranian, Turkic, Mughal and Afghan invaders/migrants, who just like
    the rest of the ancestors of Pakistanis were Zoroastrians, Animists, Pagans,
    Shamanists, and Buddhists before Islam. It was mostly due to Islamic Sufism
    that the ancestors of Pakistanis converted en masse to Islam.

  4. Pre-1947 region of present-day Pakistan only had less than 15%
    non-Muslims, out of which half were Sikhs. Many of the Hindus
    were actual migrants from the region of present day India during the
    British rule. For example, most of the Hindus in pre-1947 Karachi had
    migrated from Gujarat and Rajasthan during British rule because of
    Karachi's economic boom then. The other remaining Hindus of local origin
    were converts due to Shankarcharya's missionaries from India region
    during post- 9th century AD period. The fact is there is barely any trace
    of Hindu past in Pakistan region yet there are plentiful of Buddhist and other
    non-Hindu archeological remains in Pakistan region. The few Hindu temples in
    Pakistan region cannot be dated past the 9th century AD. When Muslims
    invaded Pakistan region the majority of its people were Buddhists (as testified in
    Chachnama), so much so that the word for idol became "budh".

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

It beats me why someone would worship and insist in worshiping cow, bull, naked or half naked woman and piece of stone.

So no argument when someone says yes or no to bull-worshiping as opposed to cow worshiping. Both are mortal animals.

On the other hand, I am glad to hear at least some muslims now a days had their ancestors non-muslims and they were converted to Islam for whatever reason..they made great choice for whatever right or 'wrong' reason. They are better off than those who didn't convert.

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

Namaste & Salaam!

If anyone is that curious about ancestry just ask yourself this -

why is it that most Pakistani muslims looks like the Indian Hindus.

Bye

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

This analogy is simply hogwash! With your logic since the Turkish/Anatolian Muslims look like the French Christians they must have a common religion in the past.. which they didnt! Or since the Chinese used to be Buddhists in the past just like how Sri Lankans are today they must look the same! Absurd claims…

By the way, “most” Pakistanis look different from “most” Indians.. every one knows that!

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

If we are talking about the 'looks' which is not important anyway. here is I can say:

Most of indian hindus look very prominently different than Pakistanis in color, clothings, mannerism, language accent, 'head bobbing or shaking gesture', body and clothe smell, physical stature, smile etc.

its rare that i personnaly cannot spot an indian versus a Pakistani. though it is quite possible to mix two.

Still............................its great that despite non-muslims in ancestry chain....many are now muslims.

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

how about u ask urself this..

why is it that most Indian Hindus looks like Pakistani Muslims?

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

Agree.

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

Namaste & Salaam!

you guys are funny. Anyway, if you're that desperate to establish your ancestors as non-Hindus, go right ahead. Doesn't matter that you'll have to rewrite not just history but geography, every branch of science and logic including ethics.

So what! go for it.

Bye

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

^^Booze!
How come modern day Pakistan has no major temple like varanasi, or ayodhia.
Why there is nothing sacred about Chenab, Jehlum etc. compared to Ganga?

There are many more examples that clearly establish the fact that Hinduism may have existed as a tiny minority but never prospered in the areas now comprising Pakistan.

Even before Partition, there would be one Hindu (mostly banya) in the whole village. Few that were in fact involved in agriculture, converted to Sikhism many centuries ago. The same process never occured in the Hindu heartland of UP where Hindus thrived for eons.

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

The way this chap is trying to expose his intelligence is laughable.

This idiot does not know that Harrappa had nothing to do with Hindu religion.

Muhajirs are also not former Hindus…let him prove it!

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

Namaste & Salaam!

Ganga's holyness is traced back to it having adorned Shiva and brought to this world by Bhageerath. You may also want to look up the info on the hidden river Saraswathi.

Partition is irrelevant - go back to pre-mugal period.

Bye

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

Some of us claim to be direct decendants of the Prophe Mohamad.. Your own Queer, who happens to be an Indian, claims he is a such a descendant, in fact he loves to harp on about how Pakistanis were Hindus, but he himself is an Arab…:hehe:

Re: Ancestors of Pakistanis were NOT Hindu!

North Indians, atleast those around Punjab and Kashmir and possibly Rajasthan, tend to be very similar to Pakistanis. South Indians and by that I mean the Gujratis awell, tend to be very different and were probably descended from different stock.