An Independent Kashmir.

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
81

I am not saying that Pakistan has not made mistakes, but rather sincerity of the belief that Kashmir is not an Indian state but rather a disputed territory, as much as India would like to deny this fact.

82

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

It will be ture ??!!!!

83

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

Dream on..Not in our lifetime brothers.

84

Could you give the source of the figure you're stating there.

1)According to your figure of '200,000', 20+% of all people killed in the Partition of India would be muslims from Jammu.
2) Total population of Jammu in 1947 was around 1-1.5million, and around 50% of the population of Jammu was hindu, that would mean that around 500,000-700,000 muslims lived in Jammu, so killing 200,000+ of them would make 30% of the population dead (lower est), and 40% of the population dead (upper est).
3) The uprising only occured in the Poonch district, its total population was around 200,000.
4) The Dogra douchebag asked for the Patiala douchebag's help in September 1947 after Pakistan started supplying the rebels in Poonch who were rebelling against the Dogras tax rules (later the rebelion became one of independance) with supplies and weapons, and ye they were part of India, so India does seem suspicious here.
5) Muslims of Poonch are the same as the muslims of the Potohar region of Pakistan Punjab, so it can be seen why they changed their movement to one of accession to Pakistan.
6) Pathans were also douchebags, they looted and killed muslims too.
7) Pathans had the chance to take Srinagar, but were too busy looting.
8) Rebels declared Azad Kashmir independant on 24th october, Maharajah scared of a succesful revolution signed accession treaty with a special clause requiring plebiscite later on.
9) Indian troops moved in...
10) Nehru asks Jinnah to pull out Pathans before plebiscite can occur, Jinnah says he doesn't have control over them, and that Indian troops should be pulled out first. Nehru saying that accession treaty was signed and that Indian troops had a right to be there.

If you forget about the wishes of the people etc, and just look at it from the pov of the rulers (no matter how despised they were), it was still a princely state and not a democracy, the dogra douche asked for help from the Patiala dude, so logically it was his right and decision to ask for help to protect the sovereignty of his land. Pakistan behaved opportunistically, as it realised that the sanctions it had imposed on Kashmir were angering the Maharajah and that their chances of him joining Pakistan were diminishing because of the sanctions. Pakistan wasn't exactly looking out for the people of Kashmir.

All that said, had Kashmir joined Pakistan in 1947, it probably would have been a lot better than it is now.

85

“…in the remaining Dogra area, 237,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated, unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border, by all the forces of the Dogra State headed by the Maharaja in person and aided by Hindus and Sikhs.”
The Times of London, October 10, 1947
Cambridge History of Islam

“Unlike every part of the state, Hindus and Sikhs slightly outnumbered Muslims, and within a period of about 11 weeks, starting in August, systemic savageries …practically eliminated the Muslim element in the population, amounting to 500,000 people. About 200,000 just disappeared, remaining untraceable, having been butchered of died from epidemic or exposure. The rest fled to West Punjab.”
The Statesman, Calcutta
Kashmir in Conflict

“The mad orgy of Dogra violence against unarmed Muslims should put any self-respecting human being to shame. I saw armed bands of ruffians and soldiers shooting down and hacking to pieces helpless Muslim refugees heading towards Pakistan… I saw en route State officials freely distributing arms and ammunition among the Dogras… From the hotel room where I was detained in Jammu I counted as many as twenty-six villages burning one night and all through the night rattling fire of automatic weapons could be heard from the surrounding refugee camps.”
Kashmir Times, October 28, 1947

Most contemporary reports in both the international and Indian media seem to agree on the 200,000+ figure.

Horrifying, isn’t it?

In the district of Jammu alone, the Muslim population fell by about 110,000 between 1941-51.

It spread to Mirpur, Muzaffarabad, and Gilgit pretty quickly. I’ve met plenty of people from those areas who are still proudly talk about how their grandparents expelled the Maharaja’s forces so they could join Pakistan.

Meh…in the summer of 1947, the state assembly of Jammu & Kashmir overwhelmingly voted in favor of a bill demanding that the Maharaja sign the state over to Pakistan. I don’t think it was just a Mirpuri/Poonchi thing.

No one is denying that.

The fact remains that, contrary to popular belief, Indian soldiers were the first to arrive in Kashmir.

I have a stalker.
86

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

What has Pakistan got for spending nearly a fourth of national wealth and thousands of lives on Kashmir? Just international backlash. And what do the Kashmiri say? Independent.

87

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

That is the whole point. These people are just ingrates. When they wanted safety from Pakistani attack they ran to us in India and signed the accession. Then after India saved them, it is as if it never happened.

Ofcourse Pakistan did their part to amplify the mischief but hopefully those days are past. Now it is just some of these refuseniks such as geelani (who by the way begged and took money from India) who want a kursi and so go around yelling independnece for Kashmir.

And some uneducated people in this board go around weaving their own version of history geography and pretty soon devise their own laws of physics...

Bait Bazi - February
88

what nonsense. the guy got hanged didn’t he.

89

We never signed anything...the genocidal Dogra dictator whose ancestors bought us from the British did. If anything, most of the population wanted to join Pakistan back then...which of course is why the Indian government hasn't even tried to legitimize its illegal occupation with a plebiscite (as it did in Hyderabad and Junagadh).

90

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

So, if most Kashmiris wanted to join Pakistan how is the call for independent Kashmir legitimate?

I hate this Pakistani obsession with Kashmir - after spending more money and lives on this than some provinces of Pakistan, all we hear is the cry for independence.

Which is why I call for waskhng hands of the whole thing, save further waste of tinme money and lives and instead focus on internal issues within Pakistan including safeguarding the constitution, settling provincial civil wars, eliminating the religious mafia and buikding regional trade with India, Iran and China which is the ONLY way to sustain long term economic growth and social well being. Kashmr tussle is not getting anywhere - all it's doing is solidifying dependency on the Americans, for the wrong kind of aid and the cost of local lives. Enough.

91

How so?

In the 1940-50's most Kashmiris supported joining Pakistan. Since then, union with Pakistan has become an even more unlikely and unrealistic goal than independence...not to mention the fact that Pakistan's decision to sponsor some very unpopular extremist organizations in Kashmir during the 90's has left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. To be honest, a lot of this mess is Pakistan's own creation...had the government simply sent the regular army in back in 1947, they could have swept past whatever was left of the Maharaja's army in a matter of days and taken control of the entire state, then quickly held a plebiscite and reaffirmed Pakistani rule over the entire region (a la India in Junagadh). Instead, they relied on the undisciplined Pathan lashkars, who were too busy looting, pillaging, and destroying Pakistan's image in the region to be bothered with actually overthrowing the Maharaja and establishing a solid base in Kashmir.

To simply sit around labeling us ingrates while failing to recognize your own government's massive blunders is silly.

Happy Birthday muqawwee123
Happy Birthday muqawwee123
Happy Birthday muqawwee123
92

uhoh! looks like the Pakistani sponsors are cutting out, but can you blame them?

isn't also funny that a self-professed Kashmiri wants to join Pakistan even while admitting Pakistan government sent in Pathan lashkars who looted and pillaged the place.

Guess it is time for more chest beating and wailing janab.

93

Apparently you don't know how to read (I can't say I'm surprised though).

When, pray tell, did I say I believe Kashmir should join Pakistan? At this point, full independence is far more likely/viable than union with Pakistan. I was simply pointing out the undeniable fact that the majority of J&K's population favored joining Pakistan at the time of Partition. Still, joining Pakistan back in the 40-50's would have been a thousand times better than Indian occupation.

The crimes of the Pathans still pale in comparison to genocide carried out by the Dogra/Patiala army and RSS "volunteers" in Jammu from Aug-Oct 1947 (which sparked the Pathan invasion in the first place).

94

Olk great, we understand you give Pak govt a D. Join the club.

Now, what interest does it serve in Pakistan for Pakistan for writing more checks and spending more blood just so Kashmir can become independent? NOTHInG!!!!

It is also not as if the streets of Kashmir have become centers of revolution which with some help from Pakistan, can do what happened in BD. No, almost all of the fighting has to be by Pak forces.

For what?

95

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

For what you ask? You don't know? How can you guys be so blind. This whole Kashmiri indpependence racket is for the power and kursi for the inept that call themselves 'separatist leaders'. lotas such as janab just sing the hymn book they write.

Pakistan has only been too happy to give them support just to be a pain in India's butt. Hopefully that attitude has changed

96

Since when has Pakistan "spent blood" for an independent Kashmir? Every military excursion into Kashmir has been with the goal of establishing Pakistani rule over the state. Even in the proxy war of the 90's, the Pakistani government quickly withdrew support from secular, native Kashmiri, pro-independence groups and started backing regressive, Azad Kashmir dominated, pro-Pakistan, Islamist groups.

No doubt Pakistan has done a lot for Kashmir...but let's not delude ourselves into thinking the government has been some tireless martyr for Kashmiri independence.

The situations simply aren't analogous.

Bangladesh only won it's independence from Pakistan because the Mukti Bahini had the support of the full Indian military (which waited till there was homegrown rebellion brewing in the region before stepping in), and because the petty, spiteful Indians were more than happy to just fragment Pakistan and had no territorial aspirations over E. Bengal.

On the other hand, absorbing Kashmir into Pakistani territory has been a cherished dream of the Pakistani government for most of its history. As for military support...when there was a homegrown rebellion in 1947, Pakistan refused to send in its army till it was far too late (and Pakistan's own territory was threatened by the Indians)...then in 1965, Pakistan tried to create a rebellion out of the blue (which failed)...then during the early 1990's, when the rebellion was in full sway, and the entire Kashmir valley would turned out to garland the Pakistani army, Pakistan again decided to destroy its local image by relying on unpopular, undisciplined extremists.

97

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

Oh, so it is noble if Pakistan spend money and fauj to "liberate an independent Kashmir" but it's crappy to do so with a goal of annexatiion.

So I ask you again. What interest of Pakistan is served?

On the contrary this obsession has ruined economy, regional relations, cemented the global notion of support of terorrists.
It is too big a cost, with no benefit and promises to be even more expensive in terms of lives and money.

Where is your muktibahini? Your so called leaders can't decide amongst themselves an agenda and a structure. Even underground rebellions are better motivated and organized across the world but you Kashmiris want Pakistan to do everything and on top of that want to be happy with Paiistan just so you can have ypur pretty independent state.

Not at others cost

I didn't want to say some of these things since some Indians are here too and it weakens your spririted arguments with Indians. But when yoiu turn around and attack Pakistan after so much has been done, it had to be said.

Finally, if you don't understand that for a Pakistani, Pakistan comes first and you expect your point of view to be given supercession over Pakistan's own interest, I have. Nothing more to say to you.

My question to anyone else who want Pakistan to spend one more life minute or dime on Kashmir is - FOR wHAT? For these people who turn around call the govt stupid and Pathans useless looters?

98

Pakistan could have annexed Kashmir (with local support no less) on multiple different occasions, had it not been for exceptionally faulty military planning. Still, if it makes you feel better to blame the Kashmiris for your own military blunders and over-reliance on irregular bands of Islamist militants, then I suppose that's your own prerogative.

99

ha ha ha! so the cat is out of the bag now. So much for this person bleating for independent Kashmir....his/her the real wish underneath is that Pakistan gets Kashmir! Just look at the level of regret expressed about Pakistan army screwing up !

wow! do people like this eat normal salt?

100

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

^
The people of Kashmir have always thought that anything is better than Indian occupation.