An Independent Kashmir.

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
61

Hello Moonshiner,

I am just showing you that two can play the game. You wrote in #60 whatever you wanted and used my name, so here it comes around

62

Great, you know how to edit posts! I congratulate you on your accomplishment. This must be the happiest day in your life.

You can go back now to supporting the rapes of Kashmiri women.

63

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

Hello Moonshiner,

Your empty childish rhetoric aside, it is very sad that the people of Kashmir have had to suffer so much just because Pakistan cannot digest the fact they chose India over them. I hope you realize how sinful it is for terrorizing people but I am also glad that through modern exposure at least the next generation of Pakistanis can avoid the brainwashing that you have undergone.

Regards
Pundit Vikram

64

Your empty mental patient rhetoric aside, it's very sad that you still haven't realized Kashmiris hate the genocidal Indian army which continually oppresses and terrorizes innocent people of Kashmir. It is very sad that India cannot digest the fact that Kashmiris hate Indians.

[QUOTE]
but I am also glad that through modern exposure at least the next generation of Pakistanis can avoid the brainwashing that you have undergone.

[/QUOTE]

Brainwashing is a mental disease that most Indians suffer from and your irrelevant and incompetent posts serve as proof to that. Sorry I have not been brainwashed, my knowledge comes first hand from the Kashmiris I know.

65

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

Great. Now that Moonshiner has scolded Pundit and Pundit has found Moonshiner is brainashed, people of Kashmir are very happy.

66

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

Kashmir is, was, and always be a part of Pakistan.

ZAB’s words ring truer today than ever.

Are you want to be a RJ in any radio station
67

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

^^

And we all know what happened to ZAB.

Jokes apart.. I really do not understand how Kashmir can be a part of the Pakistan always. Pakistan gifted away some part of Kashmir to China. What do you say for that.

68

I am not laughing.

Do you know the population of that part ceded to China? 0. Thats what I say to that.

Kashmiris are Pakistanis in spirit, faith, and culture. I am not going to make the blustery statements like Kashmir banega Pakistan, but leave you with the reality that Kashmir+Pakistan = The complete country envisioned by our Quaid e Azam.

I wish we had never taken on E. Pakistan. With Kashmir Pakistan is whole.

Why People don't Post.....
69

even with kashmir the idea of pakistan is incomplete...get back east pakistan as envisioned by jinnah and then negotitate with india over kashmir..

70

So if the population is 0 you will give away the land as gift?

71

East Pakistan is not a topic of dicussion. It has nothing to do with this discussion. However I will say that East Pakistani made (with Indias help) their views known.

72

Not at all. If there is 0 population and China's claims, much like their historic claims on AP, Aksai Chin, hold validity then there is no need for a referendum. The british arbitrarily drew boundaries with China, so their historic precedent goes well beyond the colonization of India.

If Pakistan decides to gift away Gilgit or some populated yet disputed area without a referendum, then you would be right.

73

then stop the argument that kashmir is a jurgular vein as said by jinnah...if pakistan could not stick to its frontiers as envisioned by jinnah in 1947,wat makes u belive it will acquire new territories..

think about it..before u reply..

74

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

I say, hand over all of Kashmir to China! lets have Han Chinese people flooding into Srinagar, that would be pretty cool. I know I wouldn't mind eating chow mein or peking duck everyday!

75

It wasn't Pakistan that couldn't stick to its own frontiers, it was the Indians that took away the Eastern wing. Sure there was dissension and even rebellion (something that Indians know as well), however it was Indian military intervention that changed Pakistan's borders. We all know that Mukti Bahni was no match for Pakistani military. If China were to send in full military in support of Assamese or Bodo rebels and create an independent Assam, you can't tell me that "India could not stick to its frontiers, so it can't expect to get new territories." Thats a faulty and circular argument.

I am not saying that Pakistan will take Kashmir by force by the end of this year, but rather the reality that Kashmir is morally, religiously, culturally a part of Pakistan. YOU will NEVER have Kashmir, sure you can occupy the territory but you can never end our link to the disputed territory.

I am certain that you will make additional creative claims and arguments, but it will never change the reality.

76

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

^ Sorry, I don't agree with that at all, culturally Punjab is different to NWFP, just like Assam is to to UP or sumin, soo culture doesn't really come into it. Morally, we're totally different, majority of Kashmiris want a SECULAR kashmir state and NOT an Islamic state, with the KP's back in Kashmir. Religiously, ye we're both muslim but so what? East Pakistan was muslim too..

Also it was Pakistan that couldn't stick to its own frontiers, Pashtun tribes invaded Kashmir from NWFP in 1947, which led to Kashmir being handed over to India by the Dogra douche bag. Had Pakistan not invaded Kashmir, things would have been sooo different, so I being a Kashmiri blame Pakistan for this bull crap. And the whole Northern Areas and Azad Kashmir separation is really annoying too, deliberately trying to dissociate NA from Kashmir.

No matter what you say Pakistan STARTED the Kashmir mess, and God forbid Kashmir ever being a part of Pakistan.

P.S. I am in no way saying that Kashmir is an integral part of India either.

77

*^ Sorry, I don't agree with that at all, culturally Punjab is different to NWFP, just like Assam is to to UP or sumin, soo culture doesn't really come into it. Morally, we're totally different, majority of Kashmiris want a SECULAR kashmir state and NOT an Islamic state, with the KP's back in Kashmir. Religiously, ye we're both muslim but so what? East Pakistan was muslim too..
*

You don't have to agree with it. The difference between Punjab and NWFP is not as wide as UP/Assam. Culturally, from Kashmir to Karachi there more than enough similarities including language (Urdu), shared history and civilization (Indus).

If you say that Kashmiris want a secular state then what is wrong with India. It is both secular and democratic? Without a doubt secularism is not the majority opinion. Sure culturally, Kashmiris are much sufi influenced but so is the Islam in Sindh and Punjab.

**
Also it was Pakistan that couldn't stick to its own frontiers, Pashtun tribes invaded Kashmir from NWFP in 1947, which led to Kashmir being handed over to India by the Dogra douche bag. Had Pakistan not invaded Kashmir, things would have been sooo different, so I being a Kashmiri blame Pakistan for this bull crap. And the whole Northern Areas and Azad Kashmir separation is really annoying too, deliberately trying to dissociate NA from Kashmir.
**

Do you honestly believe that India would have waited or an independent Kashmir emerged if the tribes had not invaded? I don't think so. If India annexed tiny places like Goa, there is no way Kashmir would have been independent. Sure Pakistani irregulars invaded first, seeing a hindu king vacillating as the Muslim majority region was being lost. India did the same with Hyderabad.

The "separation" of Northern Areas and Azad Kashmir was not a separation but the reality on the ground where there was enough resistance combined with Pakistani military that finally showed some resolve.

**
No matter what you say Pakistan STARTED the Kashmir mess, and God forbid Kashmir ever being a part of Pakistan.

P.S. I am in no way saying that Kashmir is an integral part of India either.**

Ofcourse you're not saying Kashmir is an integral part of India, your a Kashmiri nationalist, right? Then lets not forget the fact that the independence of Kashmir does not have any post colonial historical precedent from the security council resolutions to peace talks.

I am offended that you would say those words about Pakistan. As a Pakistani patriot I recognize the problems of my country, however I would bever cast my lot with India. Not only does it hurt your cause - lets face it- without PK, the Kashmir issue would not even be a blip on the world radar, but also it further strengthens Indian control.

Fortunately, you do not speak for all Kashmiris...if you did, Pakistan would not be raising this issue.

78

Re: An Independent Kashmir.

^ Didn’t mean to cause any offense, I like Pakistan, I think of it as a second home, I just don’t want my homeland to be a part of it . Pakistan aside, if you were to go to Kashmir valley, I’m sure you’d find over 90% of people would rather have Kashmir independent than a part of Pakistan.

I think you’re confusing Jammu with Kashmir, I’m pretty sure Kashmir was not part of the Indus civilsation. The indus civilisation stretched upto Jammu, u have to get over 30k ft high mountains to the north of Jammu to get to Kashmir. We really don’t share much history with Pakistan. Even when it comes to muslim conversion, Bin Qasim was unable to get to the valley, which is why kashmiris were still primarily bhuddist and hindu untill the 1400’s, which is when the Turks and Persians started coming to the valley.

Also the language of Kashmir isn’t Urdu, its Koshur, although Urdu is used widely in cities, its still second to koshur and outside cities, its use is very minimal. An urdu speaker will not be able to understand a person speaking koshur, its not like how urdu speakers can understand Punjabi, hindko, siraiki with ease.

http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=90785#compstory ← have a quick read <3

♚♛ 50 K Club ♚♛
79

And had the Dogra Maharaja not sent his soldiers out to butcher 200,000+ Muslims in Jammu, and invited soldiers from Mahajara of Patiala's army (who were technically Indian soliders, as Patiala had already joined India by that point) to join in the genocidal fun, then maybe the Pathans wouldn't have invaded.

Being a Kashmiri, I think India & the Dogra government played a far bigger role in instigating this "bullcrap" than Pakistan.

Which would you prefer?
80

My view on this matter is very much a Pakistani nationalist one. An independent Kashmir has an even less of a chance of happening then merger with Pakistan. I am not confusing Jammu with Kashmir Valley, historically there have significant linkages during the Gandhara, Asoka periods. Sure Jammu itself has had linkages during the BC Indus Valley period. The geographic destiny of Kashmir is linked to Pakistan, whether it is the access points in Punjab, Pakhtunkwa or the migration patterns of Kashmiris, to the familial linkages that survive to the present day.

Religion: All of Pakistan was not converted by Bin Qasim. Bringing what is now the areas of Pakistan within the Muslim fold ocurred in similar gradual respects by Sufi missionaries. The fact that the majority of Kashmir (undivided) is Muslim is significant.

Language: Ofcourse Urdu is not the local language of Kashmir, however it is the a state in India that has Urdu as its official langauge which ties it to Pakistan. Even the Kashmiri language is written in Perso-Arabic script. An Urdu speaker will ot be able to understand Baluchi or Pakhtu, both are Eastern Iranian languages, or Sindhi which is linked to more of the Indian language family. What I am trying to say is that there is an Urdu heritage in Kashmir.

More signficantly (and please be fair about this) Pakistan has fought 2 of 3 wars with India, its blood spilled in the name of Kashmir. Not a day goes by where Pakistan brings up the Kashmir issue. It has kept the struggle of the Kashmiris alive in the International arena. We have done this because a great injustice has been done to your people, our Pakistani Muslim ideology led by Quaid E Azam calls for our eventual merger. There is no other place that a Pakistani would give lives for except Kashmir. Do you think that Kashmiri (Independence) activists could have put Kashmir into the same level of prominence? Even with their best efforts and platforms, a soverign nation like Pakistan has the influence to bring the matter to everyones attention.

So you can turn your back on us, but we will not do the same. Many Pakistanis would not have a problem with Independent Kashmir, but I ask you, have our efforts been in vain?