I will start off from page 353 of the book: Promised Messiah (A.S) writes
…ab jabke inn hadeeson se saabit hai ke aane waala Esa ummati hai to kalaam e ilaahi mien iss ka naam nabi rakhna unn ma’ano se nahin hai jo aik mustaqil nabi ke lye mustamil hote hian balke iss jaga sirf ye maqsood hai ke khuda taala iss se mukaalma or mukhaatba karega or **gaib ki baatien iss per zaahir karrega.**
did your nabi tell you that that it will be nearly impossible for you present yourself as a part of Muslim Ummah?
besides, would you like to reveal any miracles that ALLAH SWT gave as a gift to your nabi?
and my third question is, do Ahmedis value Quran more or there books Promised Messiah, or Rohani Khazain or what ever the book name is, more?
Well said and all true and I agree with all except the red highlighted text above.
Replace the red highlighted text above with Ahmadiyat and I, and all Muslims will agree with it entirely and respect your beliefs.
Thnaks
RC
funny how you agreed with everything ( assuming u agreed when he said that Allah is the one who knows whats in our heart )..and then say that ahmadis cannot call themselves Muslims..
please clarify..is mirza your mehdi or prophet or both??second..is coming of mehdi mentioned in Quran? ( i do not think so but may be u know abt it better). i am following what was taught by Allah in Quran and by Rasool in Hadith. and i will answer Allah.
Allah you know how i spent my life. i donot have to tell YOU. please have mercy on me.
i believe you will not have the courage to make long speeches **there* bro!*
ahh so that was it? i wasnt expecting much from you anyway..Ahmadi Muslim's answer u heard.. and thats the answer you came up with?.. If you do not need to tell me what you'll answer Allah, how and why then you asked ahmadis about what their answer will be ?
as i said, i'll help answering you here... some of the answer could be.. Allah, my eyes were shut. I kept following what my forefathers followed. I was afraid to lose respect in my family. I was afraid to be persecuted. I kept on following ullama's blindly , without searching for the truth myself. Want me to finish the sentence , or you get the answer?
PS: a little something to think for you miss aramis09,
if Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS is the Imam Mahdi AS, accepting him will be in the best of your interest.
If He AS is NOT imam mahdi as he claimed, and you still accepts him, you are at no lose. Why?.. because his teachings are the teachings of Muhammad PBUH , whose teachings is the teachings of Allah the almighty
If He AS is the imam mahdi and you accept him not, you are in trouble
If He AS is not the imam mahdi AS, and you accept him not... no problem there either.
think over it, and you'll know which option is in the best of your interest in the hereafter.
PS2: I still have not finished the topic of Jesus AS with you. If i open another thread just on the death/raised up of Isa AS, will you participate in it? I said it before, and ill say it again, if you convince me thru quran/hadith about him being raised up, I will leave AMJ ( Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat )and will accept whichever sect of Islam you choose for me.BUT.. If i convince you with the SAME Quran/hadith that you claim to be following, then the love for the Quran will require you to discard the belief of coming back of Jesus AS. The reason this issue is so important is that once this is sorted out, everything else is crystal clear. There is no way you will ever going to understand claims of Promised Messiah/Imam Mahdi AS, unless and until you sort out the issue of death/raised up alive of Isa AS. So, will you participate?.. if you dont feel comfortable talkin about this issue in public, you are welcome to have this discussion with me through PMing me.
ps. lemme remain a close minded, and answer my queries here.
This thread is about clarifying allegations against Ahmadiyat.
So you knew that the things you posted were allegations? Mashallah Did you post them to spite fire? Actually, you don't have to answer this, I already know the answer.
oh guys ...** i do** believe that hazrat isa will come to earth and an imam mehdi will appear
at makkah who will lead muslims.
see *Mirza has said in his writings that he throws away *
*any hadith that does not go along with his(mirza's so called) revelations. but ahmdis kept *
*translating it that it as he throws away any hadith like raddi paper that do not go along *
*with quran. (ahmadi's translation ) *
now i wonder that why are they accepting hadith of mahdi's coming but they will reject
hadith of jesus coming and hadith of Prophet Mohammad being last prophet.
[QUOTE]
?.. because his teachings are the teachings of Muhammad PBUH , whose teachings is the teachings of Allah the almighty
[/QUOTE]
why cud you not follow teachings of prophet Mohammad and Allah's teachings before
mirza's claim of** whateverhood . **Quran and Prophet had come centuries before
mirza!!!!!!!! what kept you from learning them ???????????
believing in your mehdi is not possible ...how many prophets have claimed to be sooooo
many prophets ? how many prophets have ilhams of being god? how many prophets you
know who suffered from diseases like his(frequent visits to bathroom...as many as 100
times per nite??????) and eventually dying from it. how many prophets suffered from
hystermalaise and Allah did not give his choosen one a cure?????????
and no Mr popat your glib tongue will not run so fast on the day of judgement when fear
will be soo great............
whether Isa will come or not is besides the point ...........becuse maain problem is MIRZA's claims of prophethood and being god and soo many other prophets and even a women(hzrt Maryam). dying of Isa(AS) is just a convinient point that mirza invented.
oh guys …** i do** believe that hazrat isa will come to earth and an imam mehdi will appear
at makkah who will lead muslims.
see **Mirza has said in his writings that he throws away **
**any hadith that does not go along with his(mirza’s so called) revelations. but ahmdis kept **
**translating it that it as he throws away any hadith like raddi paper that do not go along **
with quran. (ahmadi’s translation )
[/quote]
Regarding Jesus AS.. Please refer to “IS jesus a prophet” thread and read a couple of last responses. Let me quote iconoclast and the questions raised by brahmachari99, which infact were gonna be my questions as well.
We believe in every hadith regarding Jesus AS, and Prophet Muhammad PBUH’s being the last prophet .. ( but in a sense that no other new law bearing prophet can now come after Prophet Muhammad PBUH.).. even if i take your interpretation of what Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS said.. well.. your own belief is that God will send Him with the knowledge. With the knowledge of which hadith is authentic and not authentic… now, we do not question the knowledge which was given to prophets by God himself.
answered above.. we believe in every hadith, provided it doesnt contradict Quran.
Sure, we follow every footstep of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. Prophet Muhammad PBUH’s teaching is to follow Imam Mahdi AS. Other teachings of Holy Prophet SAW is what we already practice. Pray 5 times, pay zakat, etc..
Our belief is that prophets are human beings , they like any other humans get diseases.. like any human being, Allah also tests His prophets as well.. That is not a strong daleel. Hazrat Muhammad PBUH in His latter days got into high fever and eventually died because of it. Prophet Muhammad PBUH was invited by a jew woman and she mixed poison in food, when He SAW found out, He SAW spitted out , while one of the sahaba died because of it. In His SAW’s latter days, He SAW addressed His wife that the poison which He ate in that daawat is still in him and i feel as if this poison is making my nerves explode.. ( again, i do not quote hadith, i write it as it comes in my mind.. ).. there is also some place in quran mentioning the disease of Hazrat Ayuub AS. Allah says in Quran that all the prophets He sent to mankind were all humans and every human faces hardship, prophets are no different.
Whether Isa AS will come or not is the whole point. Sort this out with me first… and you’ll know claims of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS.
As far as question related to why He AS claimed so many people all at once. Its because almost all universal religions are waiting for a reformer to come. Hindus waiting for Krishna, Christians for Jesus AS, Muslim waiting for Jesus AS etc.. It is not possible for Allah to send reformers to every religion. Since Islam is now the last law baring religion, all the reformers are meant to be in a person of one. That person is not to be coming in other religion BUT islam. Hence the claims of Promised Mesiah. A reformer IN islam is inviting all the other religions to accept Islam as the final religion of Allah.
PS: aramis09, will u have debate with me JUST on the issue of Jesus AS?.. I will not bring anything from Jamaat e ahmadiyya, and you also avoid talkin about it. Just on the issue of Jesus AS in light of Quran and Hadith?..
We believe in every hadith regarding Jesus AS, and Prophet Muhammad PBUH's being the last prophet .. ( but in a sense that no other new law bearing prophet can now come after Prophet Muhammad PBUH.)..
This is an Ahmadiya Jamaat's misleading interpretation, Has nothing to do with Quran or Hadees.
Sure, we follow every footstep of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. Prophet Muhammad PBUH's teaching is to follow Imam Mahdi AS. Other teachings of Holy Prophet SAW is what we already practice. Pray 5 times, pay zakat, etc..
How about Haj ?
How about Jihad (as it is mentioned in Quran, not an altered version of Jihad)
Our belief is that prophets are human beings , they like any other humans get diseases.. like any human being, Allah also tests His prophets as well.. That is not a strong daleel. Hazrat Muhammad PBUH in His latter days got into high fever and eventually died because of it. Prophet Muhammad PBUH was invited by a jew woman and she mixed poison in food, when He SAW found out, He SAW spitted out , while one of the sahaba died because of it. In His SAW's latter days, He SAW addressed His wife that the poison which He ate in that daawat is still in him and i feel as if this poison is making my nerves explode.. ( again, i do not quote hadith, i write it as it comes in my mind.. ).. there is also some place in quran mentioning the disease of Hazrat Ayuub AS. Allah says in Quran that all the prophets He sent to mankind were all humans and every human faces hardship, prophets are no different.
I agree with you Mr. Popat (red highlighted text), That's why I warned aramis09.
I agree with you because this kind of DALEELs give Ahmadis a chance to compare Mirza saab with True Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) which makes you and a reader both commit a sin.
As far as question related to why He AS claimed so many people all at once. Its because almost all universal religions are waiting for a reformer to come. Hindus waiting for Krishna, Christians for Jesus AS, Muslim waiting for Jesus AS etc.. It is not possible for Allah to send reformers to every religion. Since Islam is now the last law baring religion, all the reformers are meant to be in a person of one. That person is not to be coming in other religion BUT islam. Hence the claims of Promised Mesiah. A reformer IN islam is inviting all the other religions to accept Islam as the final religion of Allah.
So in other words you are claiming Hinduism is also a religion of Allah .....
Are you aware of how pathetically wrong this sounds ? :)
PS: aramis09, will u have debate with me JUST on the issue of Jesus AS?.. I will not bring anything from Jamaat e ahmadiyya, and you also avoid talkin about it. Just on the issue of Jesus AS in light of Quran and Hadith?..
Yeh debate aramis09 on any issue to feel accomplished, why don't you pick some emotional silly 10th grader for debate :)....
It's like making a computer lose a chess game by setting up the board in advance according to your game plan... very smart ....... ;)
This is an Ahmadiya Jamaat's misleading interpretation, Has nothing to do with Quran or Hadees.
How about Haj ?
How about Jihad (as it is mentioned in Quran, not an altered version of Jihad)
Sorry perhaps I thought writing every single thing we do as muslim will still not convince you to believe we are Muslims as well. Yes we also go for Hajj. Not from Pakistan, but we do go for Hajj through other countries in the world, since other countries does not have the religion column in their passport. As I said, we follow Islamic teachings, and teachings of Islam encourage Muslims to engage in Jihaad. Do you know what the name of the leutinent General of Pakistan who died in front border while defending Pakistan against India in 1965 war?.. If by jihaad you mean to kill anyone who dares disagreeing with your beliefs, then this is not the jihaad of Islam and hence is not practiced by Ahmadi Muslims. But Jihaad concerning ones inner soul and to fight with your conscious and to defend your home/country/your belongings against kufaar is what Islam's teachings are and we follow exactly that. It is not appropriate when at one hand Christians are attacking Muhammad PBUH through writing many many books and in return the way of Muslim doing jihaad is to kill them.. Pen for Pen, Sword for Sword. Convinced enough?
[QUOTE]
I agree with you Mr. Popat (red highlighted text), That's why I warned aramis09.
I agree with you because this kind of DALEELs give Ahmadis a chance to compare Mirza saab with True Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) which makes you and a reader both commit a sin.
[/QUOTE]
I hope next time no one else comes up with such pathetic daleel to prove His AS's claims wrong.
[QUOTE]
So in other words you are claiming Hinduism is also a religion of Allah .....
Are you aware of how pathetically wrong this sounds ? :)
[/QUOTE]
You dont get it , do you?.. worshipping idol is highly forbidden and is shirk. The mere claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS as being karishna is to let them know that there will no longer be coming anyone from your religion, and that Him claiming to be Krishna is to invite Hindus to Islam as well.. If you read the context around it where He AS claimed him being Krishna , you will understand him better.
[QUOTE]
Yeh debate aramis09 on any issue to feel accomplished, why don't you pick some emotional silly 10th grader for debate :)....
It's like making a computer lose a chess game by setting up the board in advance according to your game plan... very smart ....... ;)
RC
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for considering me intelligent enough in the department of proving your beliefs wrong. Thank you once again for naming yourself computer ( with no brain, dependent on others to operate it ) and naming me the operater ..
Sorry perhaps I thought writing every single thing we do as muslim will still not convince you to believe we are Muslims as well. Yes we also go for Hajj. Not from Pakistan, but we do go for Hajj through other countries in the world, since other countries does not have the religion column in their passport.
So you confess that you cheat with Suadi Gov't to perform Haj. Thank you for proving my point. Do you not see what Mirza saab has done to you. He has put you in the world of ISOLATION where you need to cheat to perform an important ritual of religion.
from one ahmadi FRIEND - (btw, who does understand what i, RC Hareem have to say on Ahmadia Issues) InshaAllah she ll come thru, however , she told me thatthey dont even go to hajj to perform it, and instead they go on this some other pilgrimiage, i cant remember where but she said, there is no mention of hajj according to them.
but hey isnt hajj one of the 5 major pillars and if one is neglected. what does that make you ?
Surah Aali Imran, Verse 145
Ahmadi Translation:* And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.*
Transliteration
Wam*a* mu*h*ammadun ill*a* rasoolun qad khalat *min qablihi alrrusulu afa-in m*a*ta aw qutila inqalabtum AAal*a aAAq*a*bikum waman yanqalib AAal*a* AAaqibayhi falan ya*d*urra All*a*ha shay-an wasayajzee All*a*hu alshsh*a*kireena
Ahmadis use this verse in combination with Surah Ma’idah Verse 75 to argue that ‘Esa bin Maryam عليه السلام died. Ironically, this verse same verse is used by the Muslims to argue that he did not die. Which is correct? Lets analyze:
First, notice the word Khalat (خَلَتْ). This word is translated as passed away, which is correct. However, Ahmadis argue that the implication is that this word means passed away in the sense of death. They understand this to mean that the prophets before Muhammad صلى الله عليه have [all] died. Therefore, they argue ‘Esa bin Maryam عليه السلام, one of the prophets before Muhammad صلى الله عليه, has died. This is correct? More specifically, does the word Khalat (خَلَتْ) mean death? Lets look at other verses to determine its meaning.
**In Surah Aali Imran verse 138 Allah says: Qad khalat min qablikum sunanun faseeroo fee alardi fa*on*th*uroo kayfa kana AAaqibatu almukaththibeena*
Ahmadi translation:** Surely, there have been **many*** dispensations before you;**** so travel through the earth and see how evil was the end of those who treated the Prophets as liars.*
In this verse the same word, Khalat, is used. However, what is the object that is being “passed away”? It is Sunan (the Plural of Sunnah), which is translated as dispensations, but I personally feel a better translation is paths *or *traits. Now, I ask Ahmadis, is it possible that a trait, dispensation or path can die? These are not living things or even physical objects, that are alive and die. But, the same word is applied to them. This argues that Khalat means pass away in the sense of go away, not die. Lets look at one more verse. In Surah al-Baqarah verse 15 Allah says:
Waitha laqoo allatheena amanoo qaloo amanna waitha khalaw **ilashayateenihim qaloo inna maAAakum innama nahnu mustahzioona**
Ahmadi translation:* And when they meet those who believe, they say: ‘We believe;’ but when they are alone with their ringleaders, they say: ‘We are certainly with you; we are only mocking.’*
In this verse we see the word khalaw, *the plural of *khalat. This verse says: wa idha khalaw ila al-shayateen meaning and when [they] go to their devils. (This Ahmadi translation conveys the gist of the meaning of the verse, but not the actual word for word translation.) Again in this verse Allah uses the word Khalat to mean go away, not death. One can see based on these examples that Khalat does not mean “pass away” in the sense of “death”, it means “pass away” in the sense of “depart”.
Based on this, one must rightly ask, does it mean [all] the Prophets before Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم died? The reality is, this verse has nothing to do with the death of the prophets. Allah is very very precise with the words he used in the Qur’an. If this verse meant that the prophets before Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم died, Allah would have used the word yamutūna (they die) But, Allah did not use this word.
There are other problems with this translation, specifically the inclusion of the word All (كل), as in All Messengers before him have passed away, when the word *All *does not exist in the Arabic text of the verse.
Now, this does not completely destroy the entire Ahmadi concept about the death of ‘Esa bin Maryam (in India at the age of 120 after his alleged adventure through Iran and Afghanistan based on Eastern Folklore and…The Bible). After all, they have about a dozen other arguments in support of this belief. But, it does cast doubt into their beliefs. How could this supposed prophet of Allah bring an incorrect argument? Did Allah incorrectly inspire him? Or is it the more rational answer: he was faking prophethood.
Muhammad ibn ‘Abdullah صلى الله عليه و سلم is the last and final prophet.
May Allah guide Ahmadis to Islam.
from one ahmadi FRIEND - (btw, who does understand what i, RC Hareem have to say on Ahmadia Issues) InshaAllah she ll come thru, however , she told me thatthey dont even go to hajj to perform it, and instead they go on this some other pilgrimiage, i cant remember where but she said, there is no mention of hajj according to them.
but hey isnt hajj one of the 5 major pillars and if one is neglected. what does that make you ?
You've been misinformed. The five pillars of Islam are the same for everyone.
Mirza Ghulam used to say that cholera or plague is the sign of Allah(SWT)'s wrath on mankind for their wrong doing! It is fitting that his last words were the admission that he had been stricken with the disease he was so fearful of. The witnesses present at his bed side recorded:
"Huzoor (Mirza Ghulam) could not talk two hours before death. Dr. Mirza Yaqoob Baig and Dr. Syed Mohammad Hussei Shah were the attending physicians. Huzoor asked for paper and wrote on it: 'I have too much dryness. I can't talk.' and some other words which could not be read."
(Al-Fazl, Vol. 25, No. 274, November 24, 1937) "As his condition became precarious, we stayed by him and continued treatment, but his pulse stopped by 10:15 A.M., on the 26th May, 1908 he breathed his last."
(Al-Hakam, Mary 28, 1908)
We can not imagine what Mirza Ghulam might have felt when the hour of death approached and Allah(SWT) shut his mouth and tongue so that he could neither repent (proclaim Kalima) nor utter any more lies. And who can be more unjust than he who invents a lie against Allah, or says: "I have received inspiration," whereas he is not inspired in anything; and who says, "I will reveal the like of what Allah has revealed." And if you could but see when the wrong-doers are in the agonies of death, while the angels are stretching forth their hands (saying): "Deliver your soul! This day you shall be recompensed with the torment of degradation because of what you used to utter against Allah other than the truth. And you used to reject His signs (revelations) with disrespect!"
(The Holy Quran, Al-Anam, 6:93)
Mirza Ghulam's death irrefutably proves that the prophecies he attributed to Allah(SWT) were fabricated by him and his associates. The irony is that, to impress his followers, he had proclaimed his prophecies to be the ultimate sign of his truthfulness and stated:
"If what I have said does not happen exactly, I am prepared for every punishment. My face should be blackened and I should be hanged. I swear by the Mighty Allah that what I have said will happen. It must happen. It is possible that the earth may be changed for another earth and the sky may be replaced by another sky, but it is not possible for God's word to change -- prepare for me a cross if my falsehood is exposed and curse me more than the Satans and the evil persons are cursed."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 6, P. 293; Jang-i-Maqaddas, P. 188)
Following dying declaration of Mirza Ghulam is an irrevocable testimony of the acceptance of his supplication - to kill of that. Mir Nasir Nawab, father-in-law of Mirza Ghulam was at his bedside. He had suddenly developed diarrhea and vomiting (Cholera!). Mir Nasir in his biography, [Hayat-e-Nasir, wrote:
“When i reached Hazrat Saheb and saw his condition, then he addressed me and said:
‘MIR SAHEB. I HAVE DEVELOPED EPIDEMIC CHOLERA’.
I think After that He (MIRZA) did not say anything clear till he died next day at 10 am.”(Hayat-e-Nasir, p.14)
Ahmadis/Qadianis!! This is the testimony of the father-in-law of Mirza Ghulam, also his follower, who had been beside his death bed till he died. Nowhere he mentions that Mirza said what you mentioned in your story. Also do not forget that Mirza Ghulam had studied Tibb (Medicine) and when he said cholera, he knew what he was saying. Either you tell me that your prophet/reformer lied at the time of his death or else if he didn’t then it is a fact that he was afflicted by Cholera and died of it. What other condition can produce such severe dehydration especially when all the doctors were present beside him? Amazing that you are saying that it was a minor condition which result in such severe dehydration
enough to kill him. Do not forget that Mirza Ghulam had always had diarrhea due to his diabetes, so an ordinary illness would not cause dehydration.
Other thing worth noting was that his last words were ‘I have Epidemic Cholera’ according to his father in law and not Kalima or the name of Allah. You can imagine the realization that must have dawn on Mirza Ghulam at that final moment that finally he has been struck by the most dreadful sign of God’s Anger - Cholera - and worst part of this realization was that God sealed his tongue and lips with intense dehydration so that he had no chance of repenting from his fabrications/lies
and no chance of uttering the Kalima. What a punishment!
The proof? Read the following:
“Huzoor could not talk two hours before death. Dr Mirza Yaqoob Baig and Dr Syed Mohammed Hussein Shah were the treating physician. Huzoor asked for paper and wrote on it: I have too much dryness. I can’t talk.” and some other words he scribbled which could not be read"
(Statement of ‘SAHABI’ of Mirza Ghulam Mohammed Sadiq Qadiani, Akhbar alFazl Qadian, vol.25 No.274, dated 24th November 1937)
Very distressing indeed! But a sign for those who want to heed it.
