Allegations Against Ahmediyya

Society Religion & Philosophy
1 
 
The accused statement can be read in urdu on page 353 & 354:
 
http://alislam.org/urdu/rk/rk-21-79.pdf
 
It is absolutely necessary to understand the topic which the writer is talking about before taking extracts and make your own meanings.
 
I will start off from page 353 of the book: Promised Messiah (A.S) writes
 
*…ab jabke inn hadeeson se saabit hai ke aane waala Esa ummati hai to kalaam e ilaahi mien iss ka naam nabi rakhna unn ma’ano se nahin hai jo aik mustaqil nabi ke lye mustamil hote hian balke iss jaga sirf ye maqsood hai ke khuda taala iss se mukaalma or mukhaatba karega or gaib ki baatien iss per zaahir karrega.*
 
*Iss lye bawajood ummati hone ke wo nabi bhi kehlaaye ga or agar ye kaha jaaye ke iss ummat par qayaamat tak darwaaza e muqaalma or wahi e ilaahi ka band hai to phir iss soorat mien koi ummati nabi kyoonkar kehlaa sakta hai....*
 
Later on Promissed Messiah (A.S) states that:
 
*…Orr agar ye darwaaza iss ummat par band hota hai to qyoon Quran mien ye dua sikhlaai jaati hai ke ehde nasse raatal mustaqeem seraatallah zeena anamta alihim? Aur Aanhazrat SAW ko khatam ul Anbia farmaaya gya hai? Iss ke ye mane nahin ke aapke baad darwaaza e muqaalmaat o mukhaatbaat ilaaya ka band hai.*
 
Next few sentences are read as follow: (also try to bear in mind the context of subject matter)
 
*….Agar ye maane hote to ye ummat aik laanti ummat hoti jo shetaan ki tarah hamesha se khuda taala se door o mahjoor hoti balke ye maane hian ke baraahe raast khudaa taala se faiz e wahi paana band hai orr ye naimat bagair itteba Aanhazrat SAW ke kisi ko milna mahaal or mumtanaa hai…*
 
Now obviously this is the meaning Jamaat Ahmadiyya takes and follows however you may not agree. Continue from before Promissed Messiah (A.S) writes:
 
*…Aur ye khudd Aanhazarat SAW ka fakhar hai ke unki itteba mien barkat hai ke jab aik shaks poore torr par aapki pervi karne waala ho to wo khuda taala ke muqaalmaat or mukhaatbaat se musharaf ho jaaye. Esa nabi kiaa izzat aur kia martabat aur kia taaseer aur kia quwwat e qudsia apni zaat mien rakhta hai jiss ki pervi ke daawa karne waale sirf andhe aur nabeena hon. Aur khudaa taala apne muqaalmaat aur mukhaatbaat se unki aankhien na khole.*
 
*Ye kis qadar lagv or baatil aqeeda hai ke esa khyaal kia jaaye ke baad Aanhazrat SAW ke wahi e ilaahi ka darwaza hamesha ke lye band ho gya hai orr aainda ko qayaamat tak isski koi bhi umeed nahin. Sirf qisson ki pooja karo. Pass esa mazhab kuch mazhab ho sakta hai jissmien baraahe raast khuda taala ka kuch bhi pata nahin lagta. Jo kuch hian qisse hian. Aurr koi agarche iski raah mien apni jaan bhi fidaa karre, usski razaa joi mien fanaa ho jaaye orr har aik chiz par usko ikhtayaar kar le or tabb bhi wo iss par apni shinaakht ka darwaaza nahin kholta orr mukaalmaat or mukhaatbaat se iss ko musharaf nahin karta…*
 
Now getting onto the accused sentence: Continuing from previous quote Promised Messiah (A.S) writes:
 
***…Mien Khuda taala ki qasam khaa kar kehta hoon iss zamaana mien mujh se ziaada bazaar ese mazhab se orr koi nahin ho ga. Aur mien ese mazhab ka naam shetaani mazhab rakhta hoon na ke rehmaani. Orr mien yakeen rakhta hoon ke esa mazhab jahannam ki taraf le ke jaata hai orr andha rakhta hai or andha hi maarta hai or andha hi qabar mien le jaata hai...***
 
**English Translation Quoted is as follows:**
 
*"How absurd and false it is to believe that after the holy Prophet (SAW) the door of the divine 'wahi' has been closed for ever and there i8 no hope of it in the future till the Day of Resurrection - only worship tales. Can a religion having no direct trace of Almighty Allah be called a religion? **I say, by Almighty God, that in this age there is no one more disgusted than myself with such a religion. (There is no doubt about this.- Compiler). I name such a religion as satanic religion, not divine (religion)".***
 
Just to let you know Promised Messiah (A.S) no where mentioned that that faith is ISLAM. He has mentioned some characteristics of that faith which he is using as example and then said what he thinks about faith which has these characterists.
 
Now lets read the very next few lines:
 
*…Orr mien saath hi khudaaye kareem o raheem ki qasam khaa kar kehta hoon ke Islam esa mazhab nahin hai magar dunia mien ISLAM hi ye khoobi apne ander rakhta hai ke wo baa'shart sachi or kaamil itteba hamaare sayyad o mola Aanhazrat SAW ke muqalmaat e ilaaya se musharaf karta hai...*
 
Now accusing statement says that:
 
The above-cited incontrovertible proofs indicate beyond the slightest doubt that Qadianism is an entirely different religion from Islam. The reality of the Qadiani religion is that if you accept the Qadiani Mirza as Prophet then it is all right, otherwise the Religion of Islam is abused as being dead, cursed, satanic and contemptible, and the Prophethood and Apostleship of Muhammad (SAW) too is denied. May not Almighty Allah deprive anyone of Wisdom and Faith!
 
The believe that Allah still speaks to his servants can be considered a different school or thought however Non-Muslim labour cannot be impose on anyone for such believe. If that was the case then Wahaabis, Shia, Deobandis, Sunnis and Ismailies have some major differences and would you also bring Non-Muslim debate in those circumstances? I guess not. Rest of the accusations I guess are clearly clarified in my post above.
 
Now I would urge you all who have hate for Ahmadis and who have love and who don’t care that whenever you cite something against anyone at least make sure that what you are writing is 100% correct and in the same context as you write it.
 
A counter reply is not necesary for this post as I have made my point and it is only a quick and personal reply to the allegation raised. Now if someone is still not happy then I suggest read the whole book before making a counter reply.
 
And Finally Jazakallah for reading the post.
2

Ok this is a very common allegation made by Non-Ahmadis that when we recite Kalima then we think of Promised Messiah (A.S) as Prophet Muhmmad SAW.

This is wrong and a false and lie. I have the same right to recite Kalima as any other Muslim or Non-Muslim has.

Kindly view following videos from You Tube for more information on this allegation and reply. The actual reply perhaps start from 2nd video.

If you still have doubts about our Kalima then its your personal perception. As I said before I will say again we follow the same Kalima as tought by Hadhrat Muhammad Mustapha SAW.

You will not see any example like this in whole Ummah who go to Jail or get hanged for Kalima as Ahmadi do.

Please Welcome fariha ali as Poetry Moderator
3

psyah bhai…I was saying the same thing 10 days ago when people started to move the thread wrong way around…

I have 3 more allegations to reply to which I can do later as well.

I guess according to our limited knowledge we have presented whatever we could about our fundamental belief on death of Esa (A.S). If anyone wants to read about these topics in details then read following books as such topics cannot be justified in such forum where the oponent has a mind set which will not move no matter whatever is said:

Jesus in India

Christianity: A Journey from Facts to Fiction

4

Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

RC -- Please reply to my post in this thread.

5

Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

Allegation - Mirza sb A.S called him self as son of Allah
by RC

http://www.paklinks.com/gsmedia/thumbs/72785/MirzaGhulam.jpg

I replied with copy of official reply to this allegation:

http://www.paklinks.com/gsmedia/thumbs/68411/1.JPG

http://www.paklinks.com/gsmedia/thumbs/68411/2.JPG

RC said in reply:

First off, I take this post of yours as an apology from you for accusing me of providing false references.

Secondly, It’s not about my happiness, it’s about the TRUTH that the true Prophet Mohammad (SA, PBUH) brought 1400 years ago.

Now your Jammat’s respons about the allegations.

To be honest with you, I knew the response in advance and I reject it for the reason that Prophet Mohammad (SA, PBUH) never presented himself as son of Allah, not even for the reasons, coverup, damage control, your Jamaat provided (used as ISTIARA or example etc.)…no matter in what context it is used, it is KUFR.

I replied RC’s above post as:

Yes take my post as apology as I perhaps wasnt aware of double numbering system. I will be more careful next time and I hope you havent mind this.

Original Ilhaam Reads as:

Anta Minni Bimanzalati waladi
Tu Mujhse bamanzala mere farzand ke hai.

You said *“I reject it for the reason that Prophet Mohammad (SA, PBUH) never presented himself as son of Allah” *Esa (A.S) as everyone agrees used to call him self Son of God (and Christians took it seriously later on). Basically your statement doesnt make much sence to me as if you are saying that If Holy Prophet SAW wasnt called son of Allah so no one can call himself son of Allah. (Ista’aara ke maanaon mien offcourse). It also like if Holy Prophet SAW didnt travel on plane then I wont. Please clarify your point as I may have misunderstood.

Hadhrat Masih Maood explains the Ilahaam as follows:

“Yaad rahe ke Khuda Taala beton se pak hai, na uska koi shareek hai or na beta hai or na kisi ko haq pohanchta hai ke wo ye kahe ke mien Khuda hoon, ya khuda ka beta hoon. Magar ye fiqra iss jaga QABEEL E MAJAAZ or ISTA’AARA mien se hai.”

I am not sure how good your URDU is but I will try to explain the words.

Majaaz ka matlab hai: uss jesa ya uss tarah ka.
Qabeel qabeele se nikla hai or iska matlab ye hai ke "qabeel se taluqq rakhta ho.
Ista’aara ka matlab hai misaal ke toor par

abb jab matlab saaamne hai or issi statement ko dubaara parhien to pata chalta hai ke Hadhrat Masih e Maood (A.S) farmaa rahe hian ke aulaad se muraad asal aulaad nahin balke unn logon ki tarah jo khuda ke bete ki tarah hon…ya jo khudaa ko aziz hon. (BTW its my personal interpretation if you disagree then do let me know the reasons).

Abb issi tarah ki aap agar kuch misaalien dekhien:

jese Khaawand majaazi khuda hota hai…ke uski sifaat khuda ki tarah hian.
Sheesha jab dekhte hian to uska aks nazar aata hai haqeeqat nahin.

jabb aik shaks khudd keh raha hai ke Khuda ka koi beta nahin orr apne ilhaam ki tashreeh karte hue kehta hai ke Qabeel e Majaaz or Isa’aara ke maanon mien beta kaha hai to aap kyoon ba’zid hian usse Khuda ka beta banaane mien.

phir Quran Majeed khud kehta hai ke:

“Fazkurullaha kazikrikum abaaokum” ke Khuda ko isstarah yaad karo jese tum apne baapon ko yaad karte ho

Orr phir ilhaam mien anta waladi nahin Bimanzilati waladi hai ye sarih torr pe khuda ke bete ki nafi karta hai.

I guess this should be more then enough to clear this allegation. However if you are still not convicne then put down your reasons and I will answer. May Allah guide us both on saraat e mustaqeem ameen.

 
**RC then said:**
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by **d-tox..ed** [http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-scripture/318944-what-fundamental-beliefs-ahmadis-31.html#post6556071) 
*Yes take my post as apology as I perhaps wasnt aware of double numbering system. I will be more careful next time and I hope you havent mind this.*

Apology accepted


Quote:
Originally Posted by **d-tox..ed** [http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-scripture/318944-what-fundamental-beliefs-ahmadis-31.html#post6556071) 
*Original Ilhaam Reads as:

***Anta Minni Bimanzalati waladi***
***Tu Mujhse bamanzala mere farzand ke hai.***

You said *"I reject it for the reason that Prophet Mohammad (SA, PBUH) never presented himself as son of Allah" *Esa (A.S) as everyone agrees used to call him self Son of God (and Christians took it seriously later on). Basically your statement doesnt make much sence to me as if you are saying that If Holy Prophet SAW wasnt called son of Allah so no one can call himself son of Allah. (Ista'aara ke maanaon mien offcourse). It also like if Holy Prophet SAW didnt travel on plane then I wont. Please clarify your point as I may have misunderstood.*

As a worthless slave of Allah, I believe Allah never said that Hazrat ISA (AS) was his son (Ista'aara ke maanaon mien ya haqeeqat kay maanaon mein) and as a believer of Hazrat ISA's (AS) prophecy, I believe he (AS) never said that he is a son of Allah (Ista'aara ke maanaon mien ya haqeeqat kay maanaon mein)... PERIOD. Now what christian believe is irrelevant to me as a Muslim.


Quote:
Originally Posted by **d-tox..ed** [http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-scripture/318944-what-fundamental-beliefs-ahmadis-31.html#post6556071) 
*Hadhrat Masih Maood explains the Ilahaam as follows:

*"Yaad rahe ke Khuda Taala beton se pak hai, na uska koi shareek hai or na beta hai or na kisi ko haq pohanchta hai ke wo ye kahe ke mien Khuda hoon, ya khuda ka beta hoon. Magar ye fiqra iss jaga QABEEL E MAJAAZ or ISTA'AARA mien se hai."*

I am not sure how good your URDU is but I will try to explain the words.

**Majaaz ka matlab hai: uss jesa ya uss tarah ka.**
**Qabeel qabeele se nikla hai or iska matlab ye hai ke "qabeel se taluqq rakhta ho.**
**Ista'aara ka matlab hai misaal ke toor par**

abb jab matlab saaamne hai or issi statement ko dubaara parhien to pata chalta hai ke Hadhrat Masih e Maood (A.S) farmaa rahe hian ke aulaad se muraad asal aulaad nahin balke unn logon ki tarah jo khuda ke bete ki tarah hon...ya jo khudaa ko aziz hon. (BTW its my personal interpretation if you disagree then do let me know the reasons).*

The whole discussion is based and starts with Prophet Mohammad (SA, PBUH) and Allah's message. 

Allah taa'lah never used this 'Ista'aara' for his most beloved creation, the greatest of greatest Prophet Mohammad but he used it for Mirza saab? 

So in other words you are saying (as Mirza saab professed) that Mirza saab was nearer and dearer to Allah then Prophet Mohammad and Mirza saab has higher place then Prophet Mohammad? isn't that what you are saying ? 

I want a straight yes no answer to this question don't answer with a question or lengthy examples...
 
**I replied as:**
 
Did you read following part of my post:

Abb issi tarah ki aap agar kuch misaalien dekhien:

jese Khaawand majaazi khuda hota hai...ke uski sifaat khuda ki tarah hian.
Sheesha jab dekhte hian to uska aks nazar aata hai haqeeqat nahin.

jabb aik shaks khudd keh raha hai ke Khuda ka koi beta nahin orr apne ilhaam ki tashreeh karte hue kehta hai ke Qabeel e Majaaz or Isa'aara ke maanon mien beta kaha hai to aap kyoon ba'zid hian usse Khuda ka beta banaane mien.

phir Quran Majeed khud kehta hai ke:

*"Fazkurullaha kazikrikum abaaokum" ke Khuda ko isstarah yaad karo jese tum apne baapon ko yaad karte ho*

Orr phir ilhaam mien anta waladi nahin Bimanzilati waladi hai ye sarih torr pe khuda ke bete ki nafi karta hai.

I guess this should be more then enough to clear this allegation. However if you are still not convicne then put down your reasons and I will answer. May Allah guide us both on saraat e mustaqeem ameen.

~~~~~~~~

I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR VIEWS ON *"Fazkurullaha kazikrikum abaaokum"

*Non Ahmadi Translation: 002.200 So when ye have accomplished your holy rites, celebrate the praises of God, as ye used to celebrate the praises of your fathers,- yea, with far more heart and soul. There are men who say: "Our Lord! Give us (Thy bounties) in this world!" but they will have no portion in the Hereafter. 
Source: [The Holy Quran - English Translation -Islam: The Eternal Path to Peace](http://www.jannah.org/qurantrans/quran2.html)

tum uss din kia karo gai jab yehi Quran aapke khilaaf gawaahi de ga?
 
**RC replied:**
 
I requested you to give me a straight YES or NO answer without asking question. I will answer your question once you answer mine.

Here I make the same request.

**"So in other words you are saying (as Mirza saab professed) that Mirza saab was nearer and dearer to Allah then Prophet Mohammad and Mirza saab has higher place then Prophet Mohammad? isn't that what you are saying ?** 

I want a straight yes no answer to this question don't answer with a question or lengthy examples..."

 
**I replied:**
 
You look mature but you are acting like children. Every Muslim knows that Prophet SAW is the most dearest to Allah. Now please explain your stand on Quranic verses presented.
 
**I replied again:**
 
I thought I present Tafseer of the Ayat as well so you dont have any ambugity left at all.



[Recite Verse](http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:ReadAyah_onclick%28%29)[Open in new window](http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:Open_QurPage%282,%20200%29)[Go to quran page](http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:go_QurPage%282,200%29)
**{** فَإِذَا قَضَيْتُمْ مَّنَاسِكَكُمْ فَٱذْكُرُواْ ٱللَّهَ كَذِكْرِكُمْ آبَآءَكُمْ أَوْ أَشَدَّ ذِكْراً فَمِنَ ٱلنَّاسِ مَن يَقُولُ رَبَّنَآ آتِنَا فِي ٱلدُّنْيَا وَمَا لَهُ فِي ٱلآخِرَةِ مِنْ خَلاَقٍ](http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:Open_Menu%28%29) **}**

(And when ye have completed your devotions) upon finishing the rites of your pilgrimage, (then remember Allah) say: O Allah! (as ye remember your fathers) **as you say: father!** It is also said that this means: **remember Allah for the blessings He showered on you as you used to remember the kindness of your fathers **in the pre-Islamic era (or with a more lively remembrance) remember Him more than you used to remember your fathers. (But of mankind is he who saith) on the standing site: (“Our Lord! Give unto us in the world,) camels, cows, sheep, male and female slaves and wealth” (and he hath no portion in the Hereafter) of Paradise by performing the pilgrimage.

Source: [Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ](http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=200&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2)


**There is a clear indication as calling Allah as your father. Agar Allah ko koi aitraaz nahin agar koi usse apne baap ki tarah yaad karre to aapka sawaal ke Rasollulah SAW nien kabhi ye dawah nahin kia bilkul be bunyaad hai kyoonke Quran to aap SAW pe naazil hua....agar aap QURAN ki iss ayat ka inkaar karte hian to theek hai khul ke kahyye taake sab sunnien.**
6

OK

Following is from closed thread.

Glad to know you agree with the FACT that:
Rasool Allah Mohammad (SA, PBUH) Allah kay mehboob hein aur Aaj tak koi insaan (prophet or not, including Mirza saab) aisa paida nahi hua jo Rasool Allah Mohammad (SA,PBUH) kay jooton ki khaak kay barabar bhi ho...

First off, everyone can write a book of Tafseer (it has become a business now-a-days) based on whatever beliefs/knowledge he/she has. There are no qualifying standards for authoring this kind of material. I don't know (and don't want to know) who this tafseer is from, what is his background etc.

Secondly, there are authenticity issues of any writing coming from an Ahmadi because it's a universally known fact that Jammat-e-Ahmadiya has in the past changed/altered Ahadees and Quran and their interpretation to cover-up Mirza saab's blunders of his dream world...

Thirdly, even if what you presented above is authentic, I know with certainty that none of us on this forum is qualified or trained or have deep enough knowledge of Quran to intelligently discuss this issue without unknowingly disrespecting Quran etc.

I know as an Ahmadi, you are allowed by your Jammat and you don't care to say anything be it against Quran and Ahadees to defend aimlessly Mirza saab's 'dimaghi ikhtra' but as a Muslim, I am scared of Allah of saying something that may go against the teaching of Prophet Mohammad (SA, PBUH)

You or anyone can't justify what Mirza saab professed and still stay within the bounds of Islam.

You have spent too much time on the first fact (you call it allegation), lets move on to others that I presented in other thread unless you need me to list them all in this thread again ...

RC

City Of The Month: Islamabad!!
7

Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

^^ RC either you accept that Allah says in Quran:

فَإِذَا قَضَيْتُمْ مَّنَاسِكَكُمْ فَٱذْكُرُواْ ٱللَّهَ كَذِكْرِكُمْ آبَآءَكُمْ أَوْ أَشَدَّ ذِكْراً فَمِنَ ٱلنَّاسِ مَن يَقُولُ رَبَّنَآ آتِنَا فِي ٱلدُّنْيَا وَمَا لَهُ فِي ٱلآخِرَةِ مِنْ خَلاَقٍ](http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:Open_Menu%28%29)

Non Ahmadi Translation: 002.200 So when ye have accomplished your holy rites,** celebrate the praises of God, as ye used to celebrate the praises of your fathers**,- yea, with far more heart and soul. There are men who say: “Our Lord! Give us (Thy bounties) in this world!” but they will have no portion in the Hereafter.
Source: The Holy Quran - English Translation -Islam: The Eternal Path to Peace

That you can call Allah as your father or just say sorry I do not posses enough knowledge of Quran to speak on such subject and we move onto next allegation.

There is no shame in saying that yes I agree with the ayat. I am presenting you the translation from Non-Ahmadi source and tafseer from non ahamdi source then I dont see there should be any problem in accepting this.

Advice of a Mother to her daughter who use net 24/7
8

Read my last post, I have answered your post…

Lets Congratulate 'Kchughtai'
9

You certainly consider yourself qualified enough to hurl accusations, but when it comes time to acknowledge a response to those allegations, all of a certain your qualification and training isn't deep enough? No meaningful debate can occur if you can't adhere to the basic notion of fairness and listen to the other side's response to your allegations.

10

Did you try to mean something or rude intrusion is part of your personality ? or may be you missed your pill today ...?

Aaj Kiss Baat Par Gussa Aaya ??????
11

1
I would like you to tell me what does your book of tafseer ul Quran says. Write me the passage in urdu or english from the book of Tafseer you consider correct.

2
You are accusing without evidence. I have provided you evidence from Translation on Non Ahmadi source of Quran and non Ahmadi source of Tafseer. I would urge you again to present the translation from Quran you are currently have.

3
If you are not capable enough to say that you dont understand Quran and Sunnah to kia abb aik isaai aa ke aapko bataaye ga ke ye kia likha hai...if you dont posses knowledge then why waste time in discussing. I said I dont posses knowledge but I prayed to Allah that make my words fruitful and help my writing or Allah ka naam lia or shuroo...Again you can seek help from books your school of thought.

4
I would rather die then defending Mirza sb (A.S) if I have to misquote Quran or Sunnah. Allah ki mere pe laanat ho agar mien ese gunah ka sochoon bhi. Now I wont counter accuse you for anything.

5
Your 5th paragraph is not related to current discusison

6
Sir na meri koi train cghoot rahi hai or na hi mien Firebrigade ke amle mien hoon ke aag bujhaane jaana hai...mujhe koi jaldi nahin...araam se tasalli se isko nibtaa lien.

From your post I can conclude that you dont want to disucuss this further hence would like to move onto next one. This is fine by me. I am not hear to force to you believe what I have said. Allah says La ikraaha fideen..there is no compulsion in matter of faith.

However I will ask everyone:

DOES ANYONE ELSE ON THIS FORUM DISAGREE WITH MY POSTS ON THIS ALLEGATION? IF YES THEN COME FORWARD AND PUT FORWARD YOUR POINTS.

I will wait for a day if someone wants to say something and in meanwhile I will add few more references from Hadith and Ulema writings for further clarification and then we can move onto next allegation.

12

And that's the reply you came up with to defend your position? Mashallah!

13

That will take some time but for now I present this from Quran:
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; **
*Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; *
*He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; *
**And there is none like unto Him.
(The Holy Quran, Al-Ikhlas, 112)

What evedence ?
I provided you the facts, Mirza saab's own writings, you call them allegations.
the defination of allegation is :
"An assertion, especially an accusation, not necessarily based on facts; The act of alleging"
Based on above, the facts (because you can verify them independently) I provided can not be clasified as allegations.

I may not read/write/understand Arabic but my basic faith and IMAAN was taught to me in the language I am fluent in...

I respect you for saying what's HAQ.

I like your sense of humor...

I do. I already have.

Is Samar your name ?

14

Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

RC yaar aap baat karne ko tayaar hi nahi abb mien kitna bhi sar khapaaon aap koi baat bhi nahin maano gai...beshak wo sachi ho ja jhooti....aaj mien kehta hoon ke mien khuda taala ko apne baap ki tarah samajhta hoon or dua karta hoon ke wo bhi mujh pe apna karam karre ro rehmat or fazal or pyar ka salook karre...abb iss mahaavre mien kia kufar hai...kia kharaabi hai?..kia ye kehne se mien khuda ka asli beta to nahin ho gi na...ye to mera pyaar or aqeedat or aajzi ki haalat hai.

challien koi nahin mien kal Inshallah kuch orr tehreerat pesh karoon ga not necessary for discussion but just to make sure that I dont leave any stone untouch to clarify whatever I could understand from this.

BTW I am Samar...how do you know?

15

Peace d-tox..ed

I am beginning to think that we need to take things very slowly.

Your statement in red is not what the statement in bold is saying. God is not being equated with fathers. Rather it is saying one day people ‘used to’ not anymore but used to during days of jahiliya celebrates fathers as though they were gods. Because they ‘used’ to do it, it means they no longer do it, so the verse is saying what you used to do was wrong, but if you do the same thing i.e. the celebration but this time doing it for Allah then it becomes right.

Surely you can see the English is clear on this?

16

Your point on this is that Mirza saab said that metaphorically (isti'aaran) (like I am disagreeing with that), I am saying even saying this metaphorically is wrong. But leave that...

Lets talk about these claims by Mirza saab

  1. "I am given the power to cause death and to give life from the Lord, the all-Powerful." (Khutba Ilhamia, Page 55-56)
  2. "The God of Muhammad manifested Himself to Ahmad of Qadian, and He in the form of Ghulam Ahmad radiated His light." (Al-Hakam, No. 5)
  3. "I dreamt that I was Allah and I believed that I was really he." (Aina-i-Kamalat, Page 564)
  4. "I saw that I was God, and believed that I was He, and in that condition I was saying, 'We intend to create a new system and a new heaven and earth.' Then, I said 'We decorated the Lower heaven with Lights; and added, We shall create men out of the extract of earth'." (Kitab-ul-Bariya, Page 78; Aina-i-Kamalat, Page 564)
  5. "Muhammad has again come among us. His new position is an improvement on his earlier visitation. If any man wishes to see Muhammad, akmal (more competent), then he should see Ghulam Ahmad, in Qadian."(Al-Badr, Oct 5, 1906; Written by a poet and published by Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)
  6. "It is a fact that Muhammad(pbuh) worked only three thousand miracles... My Miracles exceed one million in numbers."(Ijaze-e-Ahmadi, Page 79; Tadhkira tul Shahadatain, Page 41)
  7. "It is possible for a man to attain a spiritual position higher than any other man; if any man wishes, he can rise even above Muhammad(pbuh)."(Daily Al-Fadl, Jul 17. 1992, Mirza Basheer al-Din Mahmud Qadiani)
  8. "This verse, 'He is the Messenger of God and the seal of Prophets' contains a secret allusion to prophecy and that is that the coming of prophets is sealed for ever, and except for the prophet incarnate who is no other than the prophet himself, will have the faculty of receiving revelations from God openly like the prophets of old. Since I was destined to be the Prophet that was to come, I was destined to be the Prophet that was to come, I was made the prophet Incarnate."(Eik Ghalati-ka-Izala, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)

RC

17

Assalam o Alaikum WW Psyah,

I am glad to see you are taking part in this. :slight_smile: Lets move to answer.

Not being a scholar or anything and taking full responsibility for my following analysis.

Firstly we agree that reading from verses it is clear that the subject matter is HAJJ.

Now the verse in question (Al-Baqrah-200) comes at point upon completing HAJJ. Then Allah says:

فَإِذَا قَضَيْتُمْ مَّنَاسِكَكُمْ فَٱذْكُرُواْ ٱللَّهَ كَذِكْرِكُمْ آبَآءَكُمْ أَوْ أَشَدَّ ذِكْراً فَمِنَ ٱلنَّاسِ مَن يَقُولُ رَبَّنَآ آتِنَا فِي ٱلدُّنْيَا وَمَا لَهُ فِي ٱلآخِرَةِ مِنْ خَلاَقٍ](http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:Open_Menu%28%29)

…"celebrate the praises of God, as ye used to celebrate the praises of your fathers"…

Now being a normal Human being at this stage I would take help from Tafseer of Quran for better understanding of verse. So I would point you back to Tafseer I presented earlier:

“And when ye have completed your devotions) upon finishing the rites of your pilgrimage, (then remember Allah) say: O Allah! (as ye remember your fathers) as you say: father! It is also said that this means: remember Allah for the blessings He showered on you as you used to remember the kindness of your fathers in the pre-Islamic era (or with a more lively remembrance) remember Him more than you used to remember your fathers. (But of mankind is he who saith) on the standing site: (“Our Lord! Give unto us in the world,) camels, cows, sheep, male and female slaves and wealth” (and he hath no portion in the Hereafter) of Paradise by performing the pilgrimage.”

I mean above Tafseer leaves absolutly no ambguity that you can remember ALLAH as your father.

Perhaps what I said in my post was a little mis leading. That was my own interpratation to make things a little more easier to understand. I do slighlty agree with your interpretation of the ayat. However this doesnt gives the full story. Please read the following commentary of the verse:

Lets get back to words oh Ilham.

“Anta Minni Bimanzilati Waladi”
“Tu mujhse bamanzala mere farzand ke hai”
“You are onto me as my son”

The ILHAM doesnt read that you ARE my son but as my son i.e Ista’aara ke maanon mien i.e for example.

Now lets take another example. Allah is our creator. He is our master. He loves us most. A hadith narrates: (sorry I do not have references from internet but book only with urdu translation)

“Al khalqu ayaalullaahe fa’ahabbul khalqi illallahe man ahsana ilaa iyaalehi”
(Mashkooa Baab Mutba Nizaami 323)

ke tamaam log Allah ke kumba hian pass behtreen insaan wo hai jo Allah ke kumba ke saath behtreen saloot karre.

I would try to tranlate this as: Everyone is part of Allah’s family and the best is who is best with Allah’s family.

Timepass - June 2013
18

Please tell us why this is metaphorically wrong in your opinion?

19

Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

oh god, reading the first 2 lines was mundane then i just got bored. please dont write long monologues, we can just go get a book otherwise. short and simple please so that we dont fall off our chairs hafl way through trying to read it.

and secondly please stop playing the victim. its weird how we have to defend ourselves to non muslim, then even within our own relgion we have to defend oursevles against different sects. which is what ahemdiyya is, its a sect. doesnt mean its right. and no one is more important as a relgious figure then prophet mohammed pbuh, not some mirza or otherwise.

20

Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

^hmmm....I ll try my best to be short and concise. However sometimes an answer lie within the writing hence have to write all that.

I am not victim not playing victim game. Someone accused the writing of my religious figure and I felt my moral responsibility to reply. Thats what I am doing.


Ok RC I guess I can move onto next one:

"I am given the power to cause death and to give life from the Lord, the all-Powerful." (Khutba Ilhamia, Page 55-56) 

I ll write about it tomorrow.