Thats all folks.
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V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----
Salman- First of all, you haven't answered my questions have you..? just avoided them..?
Also i do understand RG&D's point of view that you people are making the quranic verses suit your beliefs.. plain and simple.. since not many of us know Arabic here or how pronouns are used, i have no way of telling whether you are right or wrong.. but if it was that simple, sunni/shia scholars would have agreed on it years ago.. also i find it hard to swallow that Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) would not include his wives in Ahl-e-Bayt.. why wouldn't he..? They are his family.. are they not..? As most of you are trying to prove how big a sinner Bibi Ayesha was (Naozobillah), do you think Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) would ever have married her..? I don't think so..
Get your thinking straight with logic that makes sense., not just anything that suits your belief.
Also please try to answer the questions i posted.
[quote]
Originally posted by ammarr:
**do you think Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) would ever have married her..? I don't think so..
posted.**
[/quote]
Hazoor married hafsa and daughter of Abu suffiyan too, for political reasons. TO BRING PPL CLOSER> read history
baat koe twist naheen karoe ok.. tum lougon mein baat karney kee tameez naheen hai..
BIbi Ayesha koe compare kar rahey hoe... she was the Prophet(PBUH)'s dearest wife.. think before you write ok..
Don't you guys thinks its wierd kay tum loug Prophet(PBUH) kee wife koe curse kurtey hoe.. Astaghfirullah
[quote]
Originally posted by ammarr:
**Salman- First of all, you haven't answered my questions have you..? just avoided them..?
Also i do understand RG&D's point of view that you people are making the quranic verses suit your beliefs.. plain and simple.. since not many of us know Arabic here or how pronouns are used, i have no way of telling whether you are right or wrong.. but if it was that simple, sunni/shia scholars would have agreed on it years ago.. also i find it hard to swallow that Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) would not include his wives in Ahl-e-Bayt.. why wouldn't he..? They are his family.. are they not..? As most of you are trying to prove how big a sinner Bibi Ayesha was (Naozobillah), do you think Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) would ever have married her..? I don't think so..
Get your thinking straight with logic that makes sense., not just anything that suits your belief.
Also please try to answer the questions i posted.**
[/quote]
salam bro
look bro I am not presenting the aya to suit my beliefs. Please stop accusing me of that. I have even provided you with hadith
I am not here to prove bibi ayesha is a sinner. This is for the all wives of the Prophet(saws) even Bibi Khadija.
Infact if uou read my thread where i have presented hadith about this topic. In it someone asked why are the wives not permanennt members of the household. Prophet(saws) said something like because the wives are not permanent members, as they can be divorced any time.
I am not trying to prove that the wives are sinners or anything, I am just here to prove that they belong to a separate category of 'wives of the Prophet(saws)'
bro i'll answer your other questions once i get this topic cleared. meanwhile try to educate yourself about the pronoun usage in this ayah.
Remember we are not here to prove eachother wrong we're here to gain knowledge.
btw dont put your fate (heaven/hell) in the hands of a scholar as you never know, you might be misguided. This applies to both shias and sunnis
Wa-salamun-alaikum-wa-rahmatullahi-wa-barakatu
[This message has been edited by Salman- (edited December 30, 2000).]
Brother i guess the Ayats referred above reference to Hazrat Ali, any references if u disagree.
Ammar Didnt sister Ramesha answered to your problem with the mouning,
Didnt i mention u that at Ghadeer-e-Khum Holy Prophet gave leader ship to Hazrat Ali and also gave his hadith to follow Ahleybait with references, and u have a problem y we don’t Like Abu Bakr and Umar, who after the death of Prophet rather then performing the funeral services, were sitting at a mosque deciding who shall be Khaleefa, was the issue that important that it couldnt have been done after the Prophet’s funeral,
Brohter didn’t i clarify that we are not some ppl who came to existance after the death of the Prophet, brother we follow all the teaching of the prophet, Didnt i give how references to how Ayesha disobeyed the
Quran and led war against Hazrat Ali, won’t disobeying the Quran is a sin.
What else do u wanna know, doesn’t it clarify your doubts. www.al-islam.org
visit that site there and ask questions, there are Allims that can answer ur questions better then me.
[This message has been edited by Insaniyat (edited December 30, 2000).]
Salman, Pride is not even a possession of mine. So that knocks out the slightest possibility of it getting in the way of discussing decently. No sunni on this forum including myself, looses their decency whereas all the shi'ah prescribers end up doing nothing but exactly that, when they find themselves losing their ground or unable to prove the accuracy of their statments. Secondly, I am not going to debate on the ahl-al bayt issue further, cuz I have already proven my point, in the light of Quran. Now, it's the theology of you and your buddies against the word of Allah SWT. Allah's word can not be questioned. And Islam is the religion which is still embraced by thousands, even during this age and time. Allah has promised to guard the Quran Himself.
I do have very prominent and traceable Arab roots, and parents + family members who can comprehend & speak Arabic fluently. Therefore, I can tell u that your explanation of Arabic grammar is anything but accurate. It's not even .001% correct.
Posted by Salman:
Prophet(saws) said something like because the wives are not permanent members, as they can be divorced any time.
Reply:
Do u have a valid and authentic hadith which supports that? And narrators who are credible?
Tell me one thing in the light of your above statement, would u not consider your mother a part of your father's family? If you say the wives are not members of ahl-al bayt, then that is implying that no females in this world are a part of their husband's family as they can be divorced anytime.
Thirdly, u have very sleekly managed to squrim out of answering my questions. I want an answer in the light of untwisted-Quranic ayah or valid, authentic hadith. The questions are as follows, once again:
Can u tell me why is your azan different from that which is given in the House of Allah (Ka'aba?) Why is your kalima different from the one which is read in the House of Allah (Ka'aba?) Can u tell us, why you prostrate infront of a little piece of clay taken from Karbala? If you consider the clay tabar'ruk (respectable), then why not the clay from Mecca or Medina? And by the way, we don't look for faults in sahabas, we don't look for those faults which Allah chooses to keep covered. We look at good deeds of people. And try to correct ourselves instead of pointing fingers at others. And also would u care to enlighten us, as to why Shi'ahs do not read Taraweeh during the month of Ramadan, when all sunni sects do? Why you deprive yourself away from this specialty of Ramadan when it's nothing other than verbal recitation of Quran?
FYI, I am very stubborn when it comes to others mocking Islam. In additon to answering my above questions reply to this one also. Have u ever seen any sunni cursing or bad mouthing against Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Fatima, or al-Husnain (PBUT)?
[quote]
Originally posted by Rarediamonds & Gold:
Salman, Pride is not even a possession of mine. So that knocks out the slightest possibility of it getting in the way of discussing decently. No sunni on this forum including myself, looses their decency whereas all the shi'ah prescribers end up doing nothing but exactly that, when they find themselves losing their ground or unable to prove the accuracy of their statments. Secondly, I am not going to debate on the ahl-al bayt issue further, cuz I have already proven my point, in the light of **Quran. Now, it's the theology of you and your buddies against the word of Allah SWT. Allah's word can not be questioned. And Islam is the religion which is still embraced by thousands, even during this age and time. Allah has promised to guard the Quran Himself.
**
[/quote]
My my Rarediamond;
Temper, temper. Please sister, no need to get defensive on my account.
Let's see now. What did you say " Salman, Pride is not even a possession of mine. So that knocks out the slightest possibility of it getting in the way of discussing decently. "
Talk about pride. Now is this what you call not having pride - claiming yourself to be the all mighty prideless one. You sure are a joke.
As for what you have proven from the Qur'an is nothing but the most basics of arguments that I have been hearing from you mis-guided sunnis for awhile now.
If you think taking my quotes out of context and writing a mile long message will impress people, you are full of pride.
Its Sunday today so I do not want to indulge in a lengthy message. Suffice it is to say that your posts have shown the depths of yr ignorance to one and all.
And please quote me correctly, I said Abu Huraira is a munafiq, not a kafir - its ok, twisting words is a talent of you sunnis.
Is your way the Qur'an and the sunnah ? Really. And so you claim that you understand all of its meaning, the clear as well as ambiguous ones. By golly, you sunnis must be smart. Being trained by the munafiqs like Aisha, Abu Huraira, and the likes.
Now the Quranic verse absolving Aisha for an accusation at THAT POINT IN TIME is exactly that. Does it say that she has been absolved for her entire life - no matter what she did after that event ?
And did you forget the verse where Allah (swt) has threatened them - Aisha and Hafsa - that the prophet could substitute them with better wives if they did not behave ?
Ofcourse not - why would a nice sunni girl like yrself be familiar with things that go against your weak faith.
So Aisha with an open enmity against the holy Imam at Jamal in which thousands of muslims died is OK - Of course it is because you point to that one verse in which Allah dispels the accusation against her.
What exactly was the accusation that the ayat is referring to. Do you even know ?
And please tell us how that absolves her from coming onto the battle field (well here she even goes against the Quranic commandment that tells the wives of the holy apostle to do good otherwise they will get double the punishment) and revolting against the holy imam which yr sunni books clearly mention enmity against whom is the sign of a munafiq.
And commit not sin against yr soul when even your most emminent alims have agreed that the ayat "And yr Master is Allah, and his apostle, and ......." refers to none other than Imam Ali (as) as he gave his ring to an inquirer while in prostation.
Yes, Imam Ali (as) led a simple life unlike yr sham sahabahs like Usman Ghanni who was busy mainly in hoarding wealth.
I am only getting started. Your post will be replied line by line.
Yeah, you sunnis are really good.....
aright you asked for it
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Sahih Bukhari CONFIRMS that the wives were not members of the ahlul bayt(AS) of the Prophet(SAWS)
Book 031, Number 5920:
Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him: Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah’s call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren’t his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja’far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.
Book 031, Number 5923:
Yazid b. Hayyan reported: We went to him (Zaid b. Arqam) and said to him. You have found goodness (for you had the honour) to live in the company of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and offered prayer behind him, and the rest of the hadith is the same but with this variation of wording that lie said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error, and in this (hadith) these words are also found: We said: Who are amongst the members of the household? Aren’t the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.
Book 031, Number 5915:
This hadith has been narrated. on the authority of Shu’ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa’d b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa’d as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camelg. I heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about 'Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'All said to him: Allah’s Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren’t you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.
Also Sahih Muslim confirms this too
Chapter 9: THEE MERITS OF THE FAMILY OF THE PROPHET (MAY PEACE BE UPON HIM) [SAHIH MUSLIM]
Book 031, Number 5955:
'A’isha reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel’s hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)
The complete versions of (sahih buhari and sahih muslim) and other hadith books
can be accessed at: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/
Peace be on Muhammad(SAWS) and his Ahlul Bayt(AS)
Wa-Salamun-Alaikum-Wa-Rahmatullahi-Wa-Barakatu
You may have arabic roots, that doesn’t mean you know arabic. Get your facts straight missy
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are your parents or relatives arbaic professors, teachers, can they translate the Holy Quran. The thing is ‘You’ should be aware of this not them
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False pride and ambition is what destroyed macbeth if you know what i mean
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btw mine are turkish/iranian
[This message has been edited by Salman- (edited December 31, 2000).]
As-Salamun-Alaikum
Why dont we recite taraweeh, because it is a BIDAH!
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Well Brother Ahmad G (who’s from ahl-al-sunnah and has studied all the 4 schools and is an islamic studies student) agrees with me.
But it’s a good bidah, there’s nothing wrong in it.
However keep it in mind it is not wajib, neither is it a sunnah of the Prophet(SAWS).
So you dont ‘have’ to do it, its upto you
but you ppl are not satisfied are you
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you need proof
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well here you go
Ibn Shihab said, “Allah’s Apostle died and the people continued observing that (i.e. Nawafil offered individually, not in congregation), and it remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of Umar’s Caliphate.” Abdur Rahman bin Abdul Qari said, "I went out in the company of Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups. A man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him. So, Umar said, ‘In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in congregation!)’. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka’b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, Umar remarked, ‘What an excellent Bid’a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is;
(Sahih Bukhari 3.227)
also…
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
The Prophet took a room made of date palm leaves mats in the mosque. Allah’s Apostle prayed in it for a few nights till the people gathered (to pray the night prayer (Tarawih) (behind him.) Then on the 4th night the people did not hear his voice and they thought he had slept, so some of them started humming in order that he might come out. The Prophet then said, “You continued doing what I saw you doing till I was afraid that this (Tarawih prayer) might be enjoined on you, and if it were enjoined on you, you would not continue performing it. Therefore, O people! Perform your prayers at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is what is performed at his home except the compulsory congregational) prayer.”
(See Hadith No. 229,Vol. 3) (See Hadith No. 134, Vol. 8) [sahih bukhari]
there we go happy
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Wa-Salamun-alaikum-Wa-Rahmatullahi-Wa-Barakatu
Sunnis like Rarediamond will never get it.
Let's get ready to counter her feeble claims.
Stay tuned.
The following quotations summarize Shi'ah beliefs regarding alterations in the words and verses of the Quran.
Shi'ah commentaries of the Quran and their books of "hadith" cite innumerable examples of alleged alterations within the Quran. All of these "alterations" deal exclusively with the attributes of Ali and his descendants, whom the Shi'ahs consider their imams. If one were to collect all of these citations, he would end up with an entirely new Quran. The following are sufficient to give a glimpse of Shi'ah claims in this regard.
Surah al-Baqarah
"And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant *, then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses * other than Allah, if you should be truthful." Surah al-Baqarah, (2:23)
Alteration:
The commentary given about this verse is that Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq said: "Gabriel brought this verse [to Prophet Muhammad] mentioning Ali as follows: 'If you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant regarding Ali...'" Usul al-Kafi.
Surah al-Baqarah again
"But those who wronged changed [those words] to a statement other than that which had been said to them, so We sent down upon those who wronged a punishment * from the sky because they were defiantly disobeying." Surah al-Baqarah(2:59)
Alteration:
Imam al-Baqir said: "Gabriel brought this verse to the Prophet (SAW) as follows: 'But those who usurped the rights of the Prophet's family members changed the words that were said to them, so We down on those who usurped the rights of the Prophet's family members a punishment from the sky because they were defiantly diobeying.'" Usul al-Kafi
Surah an-Nisa
"O you who have been given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Muhammad (SAW)], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers. And the decree of Allah is [always] accomplished." Surah an-Nisa, (4:47)
Alteration:
Shi'ah traditions state that Gabriel brought this verse to the Prophet (SAW) as follows: "O people, believe in what We have sent down about Ali, confirming what is with you...'" Usul al-Kafi, p.515
Surah an-Nisa
"But if they had done what they were instructed, it would have been better for them and a firmer position [for them in faith]." Surah al-Nisa (4:66)
Alteration:
Imam al-Baqir said: "This verse was revealed as follows: 'But if they had done what they were [actually] told about Ali, it would have been better for them...'" Usul al-Kafi, vol. 1, p.251
Surah an-Nisa
"But Allah bears witness to that which He has sent down to you. He has sent it down with His knowledge, and the angels bear witness [as well]. And sufficient is Allah a Witness." Surah an-Nisa, (4:166)
Alteration:
In Tafseer al-Qummi is a narration attributed to Ja'far as-Sadiq that this verse was revealed to the Prophet (SAW) as follows: "But Allah bears witness to that which He has sent down to you concerning Ali, He has sent it down with His knowledge...'" Translation and Commentary of Quran, p.124
Surah an-Nisa
Indeed those who disbelieve and commit injustice - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a path." Surah an-Nisa (4:168)
Alteration:
Al-Kulayni related from Imam al-Baqir: "Gabriel revealed this verse to the Prophet (SAW) as follows: 'Those who usurp the rights of the Prophet's family - never will Allah forgive them...'" Usul al-Kafi.
It is also narrated in Tafseer al-Qummi that Abu Abdullah (Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq) recited this verse as follows: "Those who disbelieved and usurped th right of Prophet's family member - never will Allah forgive them..." Translation and Commentary of Quran, pp. 124-125
Surah an-Nisa
"O mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; it is better for you. But if you disbelieve, then indeed, to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth. And Allah is ever Knowing and Wise." Surah an-Nisa, (4:170)
Alteration:
The translation of the Quran by the learned Shi'a scholar Maqbul Ahmad (Translation and Commentary of Quran) and the famous scholar al-Majlisi has rendered this verse as follows: "O mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from Allah regarding the wilayah (succession) of Ali...'" Hayat al-Qulub, vol. 3, p, 355
Surah al-Hijr
"[Allah] said, 'This is a way to Me [that is] straight.'" Surah al-Hijr, (15:41)
Alteration:
Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq said: "This verse was recited as follows: 'This way of Ali is straight [to Me].'" Usul al-Kafi, vol. 1, p. 521
Surah al-Nahl
"And be not like a woman who untwisted her spun thread after it was strong [by] taking your oaths as [means of] deceit between you so that an Ummah * may be more plentiful than another Ummah." Surah an-Nahl, (16:92)
Alteration:
According to the Shi'ah tradition, this verse ws revealed to the Prophet (SAW) as follows: "And be not like a woman who untwisted her spun thread after it was strong [by] taking your oaths a [means of] deceit between you lest one Ummah should be more virtuous than your Imams." The narrator said, "The word Surah an-Nahl is Ummah [and not a immah], but he [the Imam] aswered, 'No, it is a 'Immah.'" * Usul al-Kafi, vol. 1, p.377. "An Immah" is the plural of "Imam."
Surah al-Kahf
"And say, 'The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever will - let him disbelieve.' Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls surround them." Surah al-Kahf, (18:29)
Alteration:
Abu Ja'far said that Gabriel brought this verse to the Prophet (SAW) as follows: "The truth is from your Lord concerning the wilayah (succession) of Ali, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him reject the Prophet's family members. Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire..." Usul al-Kafi, vol. 1, p. 53; Hayat al-Qulub, vol. 3, p.215
Surah Ta Ha
"And We had already taken a covenant from Adam before, but he forgot; and We did not find in him determination." Surah Ta Ha, (20:115)
Alteration:
Imam Ja'far as Sadiq said: "The 'covenant' was concerning Muhammad (SAW), Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan and the Imams from among their descendants. Adam forgot them. By Allah, this verse was revealed to Muhammad (SAW) as follows: 'We had already taken a covenant from Adam before concerning Muhammad, Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, al-Husayn, and the Imams from among [their] descendants, but he forgot.'" Usul al-Kafi, vol 1. p.153
Surah al-Ahzab
"He * will Amend for you your deeds and forgive you your sins. And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly attained a great attainment." Surah al-Ahzab, (33:71)
Alteration:
In Usul al-Kafi and Tafseer al-Qummi it is narrated fro Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq that this verse was revealed as follows: "He will amend for you your deeds and forgive your sins. And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger regarding the wilayah (succession) of Ali, and his imams has certainly attained a great attainment." Translation and Commentary of Quran, p.512
Surah ash-Shura
"Difficult for the polytheists is that to which you invite them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back [to Him]. Surah ash-Shura, (42:13)
Alteration:
Imam ar-Ridha said that Allah's actual words in the Quran were: "Difficult for those who deny the wilayah of Ali is that to which you invite them." Usul al-Kafi, vol. 1, p.514
Surah al-Ahqaf
"Say, I am not something original among the Messengers, nor do I know that will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am not but a clear warner.'" Surah al-Ahqaf, (46:9)
Alteration:
According to Shi'ah "hadiths" this verse was revealed as follows: "I am not something original among the Messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me regarding Ali, and I am not but a clear warner." Translations and Commentary of Quran, p.602
Surah Muhammad
"That is because they said to those who disliked what Allah sent down, 'We will obey you in part of the matter.' And Allah knows they conceal." Surah Muhammad, (47:2)
Alteration:
According to Shi'ah tradition, Gabriel brought this verse to the Prophet (SAW) as follows: "That is because they said to those who disliked what Allah sent down to the Prophet concerning Ali, 'We will obey you in part of the matter.' And Allah knows what they conceal." Usul al-Kafi, vol.1, p.516
Surah adh-Dhariyat
"Indeed, you [disbelievers] are in discordant speech. Deluded away from it * is he who is deluded." Surah ad-Dhariyat, (51:8-9)
Alteration:
Imam Muhammad al-Baqir said that this verse was revealed to the Prophet (SAW) as follows: "Indeed, you are in discordant speech concerning the wilayah (successsion) of Ali." He added, "He who denies the wilayah of Ali is deprived of Paradise." Usul al-Kafi, vol 1., p. 518
Surah al-Mulk
"Say, 'He is the Most Merciful; we have believed in Him, and upon Him we have relied. And you will know who it is that is in manifest error.'" Surah al-Mulk, (67:29)
Alteration:
Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq said in explanation of this verse: "The Prophet (SAW) said, 'And you will know who it is that is in manifest error, O disbelievers! I had informed you of the wilayah of Ali after me. Now who is in clear error' This explanation was revealed with the verse." Usul al-Kafi, vol. 1, p.517
Surah al-Ma'arij
"A questioner asked about a punishment bound to happen to disbelievers; of it there is no preventer. [It is] from Allah, owner of the ways of ascent." Surah al-Ma'arij, (70:1-3)
Alteration:
Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq said that this verse was revealed to the Prophet (SAW) as follows: "A questioner asked about a punishment bound to happen to the disblievers for denying the wilayah of Ali, of which there is no preventer." Usul al-Kafi, vol. 1, p.518
Surah al-Muzzammil
"And leave Me [to deal] with the deniers, those of ease [in life], ad allow them respite a little." Surah al-Muzzammil,(73:11)
Alteration:
Usul al-Kafi contains a narration by Imam Musa al-Kathim that this verse was revealed to the Prophet (SAW) as follows: "And leave Me [to deal] with the deniers of your will concerning the wilayah (succession of Ali), those of ease, and allow them respite a little." Translation and Commentary of Quran, p. 688
Surah al-Wilayah
A number of Shi'ah scholars claim that the Quran once contained a chapter entitled, "al-wilayah" ("Succession"), wherein Al-Mighty Allah mentioned Ali's name and declared his immediate succession and imamate after Prophet Muhammad (SAW). Muhsin al-Kashmeeri, a Persian scholar, has published this alleged Surah of seven verses in his book Dabastan-e-Mazahib. Several editions have been printed and are available in Iran. Allamah Nuri at-Tabrisi has also mentioned in his book {Fasl al-Khitab, p.22} that the chapter al-wilayah declaring Ali's imamate has been deleted from the existing Quran. Professor Noeldek in his History of Quran, vol. 2, p. 102 has reproduced this chapter (Surah) from the Persian book Dabastan-e-Mazahib. The same is reproduced below.
O you who believed, believe in the Prophet and in the wali (successor), both of whom We sent to lead you to a straight path.
The Prophet and the wali - they are of one another, and I am the Knowing, the Aware.
Indeed, those who fulfill the covenant of Allah will have Gardens of Pleasure.
And those who, when Our verses are recited to them are, of Our verses, deniers -
For them in Hell is a terrible position when they will be called, "Where are the unjust, the deniers of the messengers?"
He did not create the Messengers except in truth, and Allah would not manifes them for [only] a short term.
And exalt with praise your Lord, and Ali is among the witnesses.
Perhaps some readers may consider all these citations old and obsolete. Therefore the writer would like to conclude this discussion with a quote from the recent Shi'ah Imam, Mr. Khoemini, who openly declared ad reemphasized the Shi'ah claim that the Quran had been altered by the Prophet's companions.
"Those [companions of the Prophet] who cared only for material gains and wordly powers, those who had no interest in Islam or the Quran, and those who exploited the Quran for their own crooked plans - for them it was very easy to delete those verses of the Quran , to modify the heavenly scripture, and to hide the true Quran from the public eye in such a way that it has become a blot for the entire muslim Ummah until the day of Judgement. The Muslims' accusation that Christians and Jews altered their heavenly scriptures is proved against the Prophet's companions as well." *Kashf al-Asrar, p. 111
One can justly ask the followers of Imam al-Khoemini, since they claim that the real Quran does not exist in this world, "What, then is the source of knowledge and guidance for the Shi'ahs?"
The above citations are a few examples of Shi'ah teachings in regard to the Quran. Anyone who is interested in pursuing this matter further may obtain more details from Fasl al-Khitab fi Ithbat Tahreef Kitab Rabb al-Arbab (Conclusive Proof of Alteration in the Book of the Lord of Lords). This is remarkable work of Mirza Husayn bin Taqiyy, a Shi'ah scholar. The author has collected hundreds of "hadiths" from Shi'ah Imams and quotations from Shi'ah scholars for the purpose of showing that the existing Quran has undergone innumerable alterations. When the book was first published in Tehran in 1298 A.H., it caused great uproar and agitation in Shi'ah circles. Shi'ah scholars were much perturbed to see so many of their "hadiths" and quotations openly documented in a book. They realized that their secret doctrines about the Quran were now exposed to the rest of the Muslim Ummah. A number of Shi'ah scholars then hastened to write explanatory notes of the book. A few others openly protested against its publication. The author, Mirza Husayn, later responded to all the objections of Shi'ah scholars in another book, entitled Raddu Ba'dhish-Shubuhati an fasl al-Khitab fi Ithbat Tahreef Kitab Rabb al-Arbab (A refutation of Doubts about Conclusive Proof of Alteration in the Book of the Lord of Lords.) Both these books were so widely acclaimed that when the author died in 1320 A.H., he was given the highest Shi'ah honor and distinction bestowed on anyone: to be buried at Ali's mausoleum at Najaf in Iraq.
The Shi'ah commentaries on the Quran and books of "hadith" narrations have clearly and repeatedly declared the unauthenticity of the existing Quran, but Shi'ahs still claim to believe in the Quran. It is paradoxical that they derive their faith and beliefs from those same books that deny the authenticity of Quran. One can only explain the disparity between Shi'ah saying and Shi'ah writings on the basis of their practice of Taqiyyah (dissimulation), which encourages Shi'ahs to conceal truth under certain conditions and to declare something they do not believe at all. Thus, it is logical to conclude that what is recorded in Shi'ah books is the true Shi'ah belief, while what Shi'ahs state verbaly is only taqiyyah.
This perhaps explains the reason why Shi'ahs do not memorize the whole of the Quran. On the contrary, the Sunni Muslim Ummah has always produced innumerable huffath (plural of hafiz) who memorize the entire Quran from beginning to end with precise tajweed. Every year in the month of Ramadan, these huffath (memorizers) recite the whole Quran aloud during Taraweeh prayers before congregations of worshippers. The Quran consists of little over 6,000 verses and a total of 244,744 words made up of innumerable lettersand diacritical marks. To memorize all these verses with the necessary detail of phonetics and punctuation would not be humanly possible but for the will of Almighty Allah. Through His special blessing Allah gives this honor to those who have the proper faith and respect for the Quran, while He deprives those who would cast doubts on its authenticity of that blessing.
a1shah, Salman and all their fellow buddies,I do not have the time to respond to your personal attacks. Rather, I am very occupied digging further and further in your religion, only to learn that it's nothing but a bunch of contradictory words. From among the questions I asked, you answered only one which was regarding Taraweeh, and falsely as usual. The true reply is addressed above. Must u still argue answer the questions I have been asking:
"would u not consider your mother a part of your father's family? If you say the wives are not members of ahl-al bayt, then that is implying that no females in this world are a part of their husband's family as they can be divorced anytime?"
"Can u tell me why is your azan different from that which is given in the House of Allah (Ka'aba?) Why is your kalima different from the one which is read in the House of Allah (Ka'aba?) Can u tell us, why you prostrate infront of a little piece of clay taken from Karbala? If you consider the clay tabar'ruk (respectable), then why not the clay from Mecca or Medina? And by the way, we don't look for faults in sahabas, we don't look for those faults which Allah chooses to keep covered. We look at good deeds of people. And try to correct ourselves instead of pointing fingers at others. And also would u care to enlighten us, as to why Shi'ahs do not read Taraweeh during the month of Ramadan, when all sunni sects do? Why do you deprive yourself from this specialty of Ramadan when it's nothing other than verbal recitation of Quran?"*******
SALAM
SISTER, THIS IS AN ALL TIME LOW FROM YOU, I WAS NOT EXPECTING THIS FROM YOU.
YOU ASKED FOR A HADITH I PROVIDED YOU 4 FROM SAHIH MUSLIM, SAHIH BUKHARI.
DONT YOU UNDERSTAND, YOU WONT WIN A 'BATTLE’BY GETTING MISCELLANEOUS INFORMATION ABOUT SHIAS AND PUTTING THEM OUT OF CONTEXT.
ONCE AGAIN WE’RE ALL HEAR TO LEARN.
ALL OF YOUR REPLIES ARE SO NEGATIVE IN NATURE, AIMED AT ATTACKING SHIITE BELIFES.
WHY ARE YOU TAKING ON THE OFFENSIVE. DO YOU SEE ME CONDEMNING SUNNIS. I AM MODERATE I AM.
DISCUSSING ISSUES HERE, THA ARE OPEN TO DEBATE. NO THIS IS NOT A ANOTHER ‘LETS CONDEMN SHIAS’ OR ‘LETS CONDEMN SUNNIS’ THREAD.
STOP ATTACKING AND START LEARNING
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
SERIOUSLY THIS WAS AN ALL TIME LOW FROM YOU.
TAKE CARE
WA-SALAM*******
Calm down
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
It had such an impact on you that you have resolved to all-caps. Is qadar cheekhnay chilla’nay ki kiya zuroorat hai?
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Posted by Salman
---------------------------------------------SALAM
SISTER, THIS IS AN ALL TIME LOW FROM YOU, I WAS NOT EXPECTING THIS FROM YOU.
YOU ASKED FOR A HADITH I PROVIDED YOU 4 FROM SAHIH MUSLIM, SAHIH BUKHARI.
DONT YOU UNDERSTAND, YOU WONT WIN A 'BATTLE’BY GETTING MISCELLANEOUS INFORMATION ABOUT SHIAS AND PUTTING THEM OUT OF CONTEXT.
ONCE AGAIN WE’RE ALL HEAR TO LEARN.
ALL OF YOUR REPLIES ARE SO NEGATIVE IN NATURE, AIMED AT ATTACKING SHIITE BELIFES.
WHY ARE YOU TAKING ON THE OFFENSIVE. DO YOU SEE ME CONDEMNING SUNNIS. I AM MODERATE I AM.
DISCUSSING ISSUES HERE, THA ARE OPEN TO DEBATE. NO THIS IS NOT A ANOTHER ‘LETS CONDEMN SHIAS’ OR ‘LETS CONDEMN SUNNIS’ THREAD.
STOP ATTACKING AND START LEARNING
SERIOUSLY THIS WAS AN ALL TIME LOW FROM YOU.
Reply:
You were not expecting this from me, that’s why they say, never under estimate the power of a female muslimah.
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What is low? Is it low that I got this material from your books and authentic imams? Or is it low that it’s taken from some of the prominent Shi’ah scholars and material they consider their guidance? Or is it low that it calls for the validity of the character of Imams? Or is it low that it seems like no one in the descendants of Hazrat Ali (PBUH) could have stoop to such level of ignorance? Is it low that this from Shi’ah books does seem like fabricated material and not that written by Hazrat Ali’s ahl o ayaal?
Is it negative because it all exists and is true and not some fable story?
If u want to talk about low, it’s not low to attack Sahabas, right? It’s not low to mudsling Hazrat Umer and Hazrat Abu Bakr? It’s not low to twist Quranic Surahs and ayahs? It’s not low to call Hazrat Ayesha (PBUH) names? It’s not low to interfer with the word of Allah regarding Ahl al-bayt when it’s so prominently pointed out in Quran?
All this isn’t low right?
The above material is not aimed at attacking Shi’ahs. If you, your buddies consider yourself nothing but muslim, and claim not to follow any sect or any book, other than Quran or Sunnah, then you shouldn’t take offense to this.
And this material is for the general knowledge of all muslims. If you are only a muslim, don’t follow any sect, then this shouldn’t bother you. Secondly, if you do admit that you are a Shi’ah, then you shouldn’t be so wide-eyed, you must have known all this. Shouldn’t be new to you. So why r u so surprised.
Even when non muslims dig into Islam, they go to the deepest of all depths, and then they come out accepting and embracing. The issues that you folks were raising made it necessary for me to go and learn Shi’ahism in detail. I want to share what I learnt with fellow muslims. You shouldn’t take any offense. If you think all that I have written is wrong why don’t u prove me wrong in the light of Quran, and authentic Sunnah.
You have yet to answer my questions: Here they are a millionth time.
“would u not consider your mother a part of your father’s family? If you say the wives are not members of ahl-al bayt, then that is implying that no females in this world are a part of their husband’s family as they can be divorced anytime?”
“Can u tell me why is your azan different from that which is given in the House of Allah (Ka’aba?) Why is your kalima different from the one which is read in the House of Allah (Ka’aba?) Can u tell us, why you prostrate infront of a little piece of clay taken from Karbala? If you consider the clay tabar’ruk (respectable), then why not the clay from Mecca or Medina? And by the way, we don’t look for faults in sahabas, we don’t look for those faults which Allah chooses to keep covered. We look at good deeds of people. And try to correct ourselves instead of pointing fingers at others. And also would u care to enlighten us, as to why Shi’ahs do not read Taraweeh during the month of Ramadan, when all sunni sects do? Why do you deprive yourself from this specialty of Ramadan when it’s nothing other than verbal recitation of Quran?”
salam
one more thing
can you prove to me that the 4 hadith i presented from sahih muslim bukhari, regarding the membes of ahlul bayt(AS) are wrong?
can you prove to me the 2 hadith regarding the tarawih are wrong?
you know its not like your gaining an ‘points’ by condmening shias. its not like you get points everytime you swipe your ‘safeway club card’
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all your doing is filling yourself with more negativity and hatred. Your destroying your soul(nafs).
I have to admit of all the sunni bro and sisters(who are good) i met none is more ‘stubborn’ and hatefilled then you.
Why cant we have a more down to earth conversation.
why the repeated attempts of ‘slogging’ shias.
To Conclude:
Your Hurting no one but yourslef. Rather than using the time to gain knowledge your just spreading hatered and discord between an already divided ummah.
May Allah make you more ‘heedful’ of your actions.
Wa-Salamun-Alaikum-Wa-Rahmatullahi-Wa-Barakatu
Rarediamond;
May Allah reward you appropriately for all the false propaganda that people of yr kind spread. If such falsity is what is written about Shias in YOUR general books, you sunnis are indeed a sad case.
salam
We'll answer all of your questions once the issue of 'The Ahlul Bayt(AS)' gets resolved.
Its as simple as that. We cant jump from one issue to another.
Lets focus on 1 thing first.
wa-salam
once again ppl
THIS IS THREAD IS NOT MEANT TO ACCUSE EACH OTHER OF ANYTHING.
Rarediamond;
Being ignorant that you are, you would not know that Shia scholars have NEVER claimed the perfection of al-Kafi. There are hadiths in there which have been classified as strong, weak, and rejected.
But you wouldn't know that nor the fact that shia scholars have repeatedly stated that any hadiths that goes in contradiction with the Qur'an is to be rejected.
No, you wouldn't know that would you. Your job as a mis-guided sunni is to go through these books, find hadiths that prove yr point, and claim victory. The fact whether these hadiths were rejected by Shias or not would not be a primary concern of yrs.
Better than yr sahih books which you sunnis follow blindly regardless of who transmits those hadiths and whether they agree with the Quran or not.
Do you want me to show you in yr sahihs about Aisha and Umer's allegation on the in-completeness of the Qur'an ?
The more you write, the more you show yrself to be a complete loser.
Anyway, I didn't expect anything more from the likes of u.
Salman,
You used to be the most reasonable shia around on this forum. What happened to you?
Instead of answering(well referenced) quotations by Rare Diamonds you started calling her low etc.
I read her posts and did not see anything low there. I am not being judgemental but failed to understand what was low.
Is not it same debate we had about alteration of quran in another post.
If she is wrong and all references are wrong you should answer.
If she is right and shia believe that quran has been altered, what about (Allah promising that quran can not changed) and what about muslims claiming and boasting to christians about authenticity of Quran??
BELIEF IS NOT WHAT MIND POSSESSES, BELIEF IS WHAT POSSESSES THE MIND!