Are you gonna answer my questions or not..?
Brother i belief the things that happened after the death of Prophet sure does effect us, About 900 muslims were killed in the battle of Jamal, and you think its something thats none of our concerns, keeping your emotions aside think logically brother isnt it an example how some people after the death of our beloved Prophet got corrupted and went against Holy Prophet at Gadeer-e-Khum, Bibi Ayesha even went as far that she disobeyed Quran and went on battle splitting the muslim ummah and sheding their blood. And you complain you people complain y don’t we respect her.
Originally posted by Ammar
3.) Where in the Quran does it say that Hazrat Ali(RA) should have been the successor to our Holy Prophet(PBUH)… Do you know where shiaism started from..? It started because of the increased mazalim on the family of the prophet..it was just a movement to get the people to see how the family of the prophet was suffering it is not what you guys have made of it..! You people are just spreading hate…!
Excuse me brother we have been following the Quran and hadith of the Prophet since his life time and even after the death of the Prophet we have followed his hadith at Ghadeer-e-Khum, We’ve been their since the time of the Prophet. Tell me is there any Ayat in the Quran that Abu Bakr should be the Khaleefa, if Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman were the righteous sahaba then why did Holy Prophet warned us "- man kunto mawlahu fa `Aliyyun mawlahu "
http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm
Where did you learn that shia belief that islam is incompelete, Islam is complete brother the purpose of the Imamat is to defend the religon they are the mahafiz and our source for guidance, and u might have seen it in the history especially at Medan-e-Karbala how did Imam Hussain sacrificed his own family on the Way of God.
Lemme Give you a Hadith of the Prophet.
“Verily, I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you: the Book of God and my kindred (`itrah), my household (Ahl alBayt), for indeed, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the Pond (of alKawthar on the Judgement’s Day).”
here are four references for the hadith.
(Muslim says
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Zuhayr ibn Harb and Shujaibn Makhlad narrated to me fromUlayyah that he said: Zuhayr said: narrated to us Ismail ibn Ibrahim, from Abu Hayyan, from Yazid ibn Hayyan, who said: "I, Husayn ibn Sabrah and Umar ibn Muslim went to see Zayd ibn Arqam. When we sat down with him, Husayn said to him, ‘O Zayd, you have been greatly fortunate. You have seen the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be Allah’s peace and benedictions, heard his speech, fought with him in battles and have prayed behind him. Indeed, O Zayd, you have been enormously fortunate. Narrate to us what you have heard from the Messenger of Allah , may Allah’s peace and benedictions be upon him.’
“Zayd said: ‘O brother, by God, I have become aged and old and I have forgotten some of what I used to remember from the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah’s peace and benedictions. So accept what I narrate to you and as to what I don’t, trouble me not regarding it.’ Then he said: ‘One day the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah’s peace and benedictions, addressed us near a pond called Khumm between Makkah and Madinah. He praised God and extolled Him and preached and reminded (us). Then he said, “Lo, O people, I am only a human being and I am about to respond to the messenger of my Lord *. I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it.” Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah . Then he said, “And my Ahl alBayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl alBayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl alBayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl alBayt”’” …
(Sahih Muslim, part 7, Kitab fada’il alSahabah [Maktabat wa Matbaat Muhammad Ali Subayh wa Awladuhu: Cairo] pp. 122-123.)
(AlHakim says
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Narrated to us Abu alHusayn Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn Tamim alHanzali in Baghdad, from Abu Qallabah Abd alMalik ibn Muhammad alRaqqashi, from Yahya ibn Hammad; also narrated to me Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Balawayh and Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn Jafar alBazzaz, both of them from Abd Allah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal, from his father, from Yahya ibn Hammad; and also narrated to us Abu Nasr Ahmad ibn Suhayl, the faqih of Bukhara, from Salih ibn Muhammad, the hafiz of Baghdad, from Khalaf ibn Salim alMakhrami, from Yahya ibn Hammad; and Yahya ibn Hammad narrated from Abu Uwwanah from Sulayman al’A`mash, from Habib ibn Abi Thabit, from Abu alTufayl, from Zayd ibn Arqam, may God be pleased with him, who said: "The Messenger of Allah , may God’s peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny, while returning from his last hajj (hijjat alwada’) came down at Ghadir Khumm and ordered (us) towards the big trees, and (the ground) underneath them was swept.
“Then he said, 'I am about to answer the call (of death). Verily, I have left behind two precious things amongst you, one of which is greater than the other. The Book of Allah , the Exalted, and my itrah (kindred). So watch out how you treat these two after me, for verily they will not separate from each other until they come back to me by the side of the Pond.' Then he said 'Verily, Allah , the Almighty and the Glorious, is my master (mawla) and I am the master of every believer (mu'min).' Then he took Ali, may God be pleased with him, by the hand and said, ‘This (`Ali) is the master of whomever I am his master. O God, love whoever loves him and be the enemy of his enemy.’”
(AlHakim adds
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“This hadith is sahih in accordance with the conditions of sihhah laid down by the Shaykhayn (alBukhari and Muslim), although they have not recorded it in its full length.”
AlHakim says
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The first tradition (mentioned above) is supported by this one narrated by Salamah ibn Kuhayl, from Abu alTufayl, which is also sahih according to the requirements of alBukhari and Muslim. Narrated to us Abu Bakr ibn Ishaq and Dalaj ibn Ahmad alSijzi, both of them from Muhammad ibn Ayyub, from al'Azraq ibn Ali, from Hassan ibn Ibrahim alKirmani, from Muhammad ibn Salamah ibn Kuhayl, from his father, from Abu al-Tufayl, from Ibn Wathilah that he heard Zayd ibn Arqam, may God be pleased with him, say: “The Messenger of Allah , may Allah 's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny, came down at a place between Makkah and Madinah near the trees with five big shades and the people swept the ground under the trees. Then the Messenger of Allah , may God’s peace and benediction be upon him and his progeny, began to perform the evening prayer. After the prayer he began to address the people. He praised God and extolled Him, preaching and reminding (us), and said what God wanted him to say. Then he said, ‘O people! Verily, I am leaving behind two matters (amrayn) among you if you follow them (the two) you will never go astray. These two are: the Book of God and my ahl albayt, my itrah.' Then he said thrice: 'Do you know that I have more right over the believers (Inni awla bi almu'minin) than they over themselves?' The people said, 'Yes.' Then the Messenger of Allah , may Allah's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny said, 'Of whomever I am his master (mawla) Ali also is his master.’”
(al’Imam al-Hafiz Abu Abd Allah alHakim alNaysaburi, alMustadrak ala al-Sahihayn [Dar alMarifah li alTibaah wa alNashr: Beirut), vol. iii, pp. 109-110).
(AlHakim says
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Narrated to us Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn alHusayn ibn Muslim, the faqih of Ray, from Muhammad ibn Ayyub, from Yahya ibn al-Mughirah alSadi, from Jarir ibn Abd alHamid, from alHasan ibn Abd Allah alNakhai, from Muslim ibn Subayh, from Zayd ibn Arqam, may God be pleased with him, who said: “The Messenger of Allah , may Allah’s peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny, said, ‘Verily, I leave behind two precious things amongst you: the Book of Allah and my ahl albayt. Verily, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the side of the Pond.’”
(AlHakim says
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This hadith is sahih al’isnad according to the conditions laid down by the Shaykhayn (alBukhari and Muslim), though they did not record it. (alHakim, op. cit., vol. iii, p. 148
Anyway I am not here to create any hatredness, but i think its my duty to stand for the what i belief is truth.
Eid Mubarak
[This message has been edited by Insaniyat (edited December 27, 2000).]*
insaaniyat
**
"Brother i belief the things that happened after the death of Prophet sure does effect us, About 900 muslims were killed in the battle of Jamal, and you think its something thats none of our concerns, keeping your emotions aside think logically brother isnt it an example how some people after the death of our beloved Prophet got corrupted and went against Holy Prophet at Gadeer-e-Khum, Bibi Ayesha even went as far that she disobeyed Quran and went on battle splitting the muslim ummah and sheding their blood. And you complain you people complain y don't we respect her."**
Thanks for the very civil post, more people should do this. I keep repeating myself. I'm not saying things that happened after the prophet (pbuh) are not important. The point i've been trying to make is that, relgion was completed after the prophet (pbuh) died. its a simple statement, and people for some
reason can't seem to get it. the only thing left to do with religion at that point is to apply it and protect it.
You mentioned in your earlier post that,**
"Are you trying to say that Islam was meant to be followed during the time of the HOly Prophet, the matters that come after him doesn't matter, if someone come and ranges war against fellow muslims or kill them for no reason, (kaaba yah Quran ki behurmati kare) aur start spreading false information doesnt concern us because Holy Prophet is not here anymore, doesn't islam ask us for Jihad(fight for the religon) don't u believe in it. No wonder you people have left what the Holy Prophet taught as at Ghadeer-e-Khum cause he wasnt there anymore and elected you own Khaleefa's."**
i think that hitting below the belt. Tell me seriously how what i wrote implied that muslims should not wage jihad. And as far as the caliphate issue goes, its done with. personally, i don't think the muslims were supposed to be ruled like as a kingdom, where power remains in a family.
I agree with Salaman
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[This message has been edited by Sugar and spice (edited December 27, 2000).]
quote:
Originally posted by nomaan:
simple fact of the matter is that shias are giving an event that happened after islam was *completed, undue importance. whatever happened after the prophets(pbuh) death should not interfere with the religion.
*
Nomaan sorry if there is a misunderstanding going here. but i thought here the event you are talking about is Jamal, and taats what i was trying to justify there.
As-Salamun alaikum Everyone
Eid Mubarak
I figured this would be the day when people would be most willing to forgive me. So if I in any way hurt you or bad mouthed you or became a means of annoyance for a you than please forgive me for I did that under the control of shaitan. and of course I forgive you all as i never harbored any bad feelings towards anyone of you.
Wa-Salamun-Alaikum-Wa-Rahmatullahi-Wa-Barakatu
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very impressed with your attitude
Insaniyat brother, nice to see people conducting themselves in a nice manner here..
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anyway in regard to your post… i’ll again ask you the one question ok.. in condensed form… look i’m no alim ok.. i am thinking from a normal person’s pov…
Do you think Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) would leave us with a religion which would be incomplete..? Why would you need adding to it..? Is Islam a religion of hate..? No, right..? so why the hate towards the sahabas(RA)..? Do you disagree that Hazrat Muhammad Said that if i could have two friends on this world they would be AbuBaker(RA) and Umar(RA)..? Why the hate…? I agree to the fact that Hazrat Ali(RA), Hazrat Imam Hussein(RA) and Hazrat Imam Hussan(RA) would recieve high darjas in janat.. they proved themselves to be of Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH)'s family..
Lets say that all that you say did happen back then.. ok.. how does it change our perception of islam…? Why would you mourn on 9th and 10th muharram..? Afterall Hazrat Imam Hussein(RA) did embrace shahadat… didn’t he..?
Again getting back to the point.. Lets say all this did happen… why would you hate sahabas and spread the hate about them today… don’t you agree that our religion should be praying to Allah.. being Muhammad(PBUH)'s obedient followers…? or rather is our religion all about telling others or proving to others how bad the sahabas were(naozobillah)..? To me Islam is all about spreading love and spreading good..
Another thing… do you think islam is kingship.. i.e. why would islam go through only the ahl-e-bayt.. isn’t the most righteous person supposed to be the closest to Allah(SWT)..?
After you are done thinking about all the questions above… just think about this..
How are our fundamental beliefs different… let me state one thing to you.. how you percieve history or how you say your prayers or whether you break your fast 5 minutes after us… all of these things don’t matter.. the fundamental things are the beliefs… so my question from this above paragraph is that why would you let something that happened after the Prophet’s death let influence your Islam… ?
I know its all jumbled up and kind of lengthy but see if you get my point..
If you feel that all we are doing here is defending our beliefs and that none of us are going to budge from our point of view then feel free to disregard this post..
By al-'Allama al-Sheikh al-Ameeni. Translated by Shaun Astarabadi, [email protected]
It is accepted to the Islamic nation, due to the finality of the prophethood and its particular concerns, that the holy prophet (s) had the knowledge about the wars , trials and that which happened to his family-house hold, their progeny, and relatives, more or less, of the enormous tragedies, of the dark surprises of time, of the hard events, wide killings, and to whatever else that has entered on them from torture, trickery, ill-treatment, capture and imprisonment.
This knowledge of his (s) is from among the wide, unconditional, and fully general (master) leadership on every creation. As not acting on this information, using it for forgiveness and patience (instead) , as if nothing was going to occur, all while he could have taken these men without any consequence. These unjust men of tyranny, men of corruption, he (s) (could have taken them) using his knowledge of that he knew of them. To uphold legal punishment before they attack, punish before the crime, to sever the ties with the offending clan, not to have good relation with the aggressors; and to send away those whom he knew of aggression bad fortune and animosity to his family from his field, away from his person. All of this is also from the concerns of the leadership. No human, ever, can carry this heavy burden. While this knowledge and this forgiveness is not combined in any of the sons of Adam. This can not be conceived in any human except in one who has the leadership (Wilayeh).
This is an important subject, very wide, form the sciences of religion, if we were to go into its details we would end up with a heavy book.
This condition caused the Messenger of Allah (s) to look to all of these events and tragedies which were to inflict his household, as long as he lived, the essence of his kidneys (Hassan & Hussain), his love and a part of himself (Fatima) and her cousin his greatest supporter in truth (Ali) and from their good progeny; as if he was viewing the events from behind a thin screen. Whenever he looked to one of them, up close, his knowledge, as a matter of fact, would play the scenes before his eyes. Therefore, for the length of his life, he displayed his sorrow and depression among those close to him, naturally. His sorrow does not separate from him, he lived with it, crying secretly, hiding the longing and swallows the pain.
Whenever he found the appropriate environment he would attempt to cure the pain of his heart, put off the heat in his heart and the fire of sorrow by hugging one of his family close to his chest, he would smell and kiss pouring his tears, with crying eyes and his tong carries what amuses his feelings.
You would see him (s) holding on to Ali (as), the master of his progeny, his cousin and father of his “sons”, in the middle of the road he would kiss him and repeat his saying: “My father is your ransom. (You) The lonely the martyr.” As reported by Mrs. 'Aesha, the mother of believers,
**Sunni references:
al-Hafidh abu-Yaala al-Mousilly, in his Musnad
an many scholars took from him.
**
Many of the narrators reported the correct hadeeth of Ibn-Abbas: “I went out with the prophet (s) and Ali (ra) by the walls of Madina, we passed by a garden. Ali (ra) said: What a beautiful garden this is Oh’ prophet of Allah? He (the prophet) said: Your garden in Paradise is more beautiful than this. Then he pointed with his hand to his (Ali’s) head and beard and cried till he was loudly crying. We said: What makes you cry? He said: Hatred in the hearts of a people, they do not display till they loose me.”
In a narration according to Anas bin Malik: “Then the prophet put his head on one of Ali’s shoulders and cried. He said to him: What makes you cry, Oh, messenger of Allah? He said: Hatred in the chests of peoples, they don’t display until I depart from this world.”
Also, according to Ameerul Moemineen (Ali): “When the road was clear for me, he hugged me and cried loudly. I said: Oh messenger of Allah, what makes you cry? He said: Hatred in the chests of peoples, they don’t display to you until after me.”
Sunni Ref, where all three narrations are recorded:
Musnad al-Bazzaz;
al-Mu’jam al-Kabeer, al-Tabarani
Musnad abu-Ya’la
Tareekh al-Sham, Ibn ‘Asakir
Majma’ al-Haithami
more references can be found in “Al-Ghadeer”, by al-Ameeni.
The prophet (s) used to attend to his (Ali’s) patience and solidarity and say (s) to him (as): “How is your patience if that was dyed (colored) from this? Pointing with his hand to his beard and head. Ali said: Wasn’t I tested when I was tested, so this is not from among the things of patience, but it is from those of good tidings and dignity.” So the prophet (s) is pleased with such beautiful expressions, which describes the greatness of Ali’s self and his love in the way of Allah, Almighty.
Sunni Ref:
al-Mu’jam al-Kabeer, al-Tabarani.
You see him (s) embrace abu-Mohammad - the Hassan, the son, to his chest and kiss him on his mouth and navel, because of what he knew that his contents from his mouth to his navel will be cut by the poison.
Then he would embrace the Hussain, the son, towards him to smell and kiss. To kiss the spots where swords, arrows and stabs are to fall. He would concentrate on his lips, knowing that they will be hit by the rod.
He (s) mourns his Hussain, his flower (as he used to call them), time after time, in the houses of the Mothers of the Believers (his wives). Whenever his sorrow is hard on him, he would take the Hussain in his lap and brings him along to the mosque, to the gathering of Sahaba while crying. His tears falling, he would display to them the infant Hussain with the sand of Karbalaa in his hand and say: “My nation (Ummah) will kill him, and this is the dirt of Karbalaa.” Or he would take the dirt smell it and cry, with the mention of his murder and death, saying: “The smell of Karb wa Balaa (sorrow and trial).” Or would say: “By The One who owns my soul, it saddens me: Who is this who kills Hussain after me?” Or would say: “Wow to ‘Karb and Balaa’”, or “Karbalaa: the land of Karb (deep sorrow) and Balaa (painful trial).” Or puts Hussain on his lap, with his red dirt in his hand, while crying and say: “I wish I could express my self! Who kills you after me?”
You would see Fatima (as), when her father (s) tells her that she is to catch up with him fast from among his family, it pleases her to hear this news *see references below]. He is but telling her that the life of the family of Mohammed is surrounded by treachery and sad surprises. If it were not for such fears, from those enormous tragedies pouring into their field, why would the Zahraa-Fatima dislike her life? Her happy life ought to be the best life, most pleasant and greatest of pride: Having a husband alike to her father in his virtues; having sons like the Hussan and Hussain, the flowers of the messenger of Allah (s), the masters of the youth of Paradise - none equal, any beautiful description falls short; and from among the girls such as Zainab, the jewel of completeness and honor.
*** Sunni Ref:
Musnad Ahmad, Ahmad bin Hanbal
Musnad abu-Ya’la, abu-Ya’la al-Mousulli
Musannaf Ibn Abi Sheiba
al-Khasaes, al-Nisaei
Saheeh al-Tirmithi
Mushkil al-Athar, al-Tahawi
al-'Ilal, al-Darqutni
Huliat al-Abrar, abu-Naeem
al-Dalael, al-Bayhaqi
and many others via Umul Moemineen 'Aesha
**
So why is Fatima, at that time, displeased with life, when she is still in the bud of her youth, has not reached her aims and has not gotten what she hopes out of life?
Why would she ask her God to hasten her death, when she has not attained what mothers wish to see in their sons? For such hopes ease (mothers’) pains and sweeten the bitterness of this world. They sacrifice all to see these hopes come true. Why would she remove her hand from her infants, clears her lap from them and accept orphaning them when they have reach their beautiful youth?
Why would she be ‘pleased’ to wither her flowers, the flowers of the family of Mohammed, while they are in their most beautiful stage, and she has not attained their blossom? Why would she leave her garden and the flowers have not opened?
Why would she like to separate from her spouse and leave her love to accompany sorrow, pain and emptiness. His sorrow after her is everlasting and his nights in her separation is insomnia?
Why is this happiness and pleasure in becoming close to death?
All of this is nothing more than escaping from the gravity of these tragedies which she knew well, taken from her father the truthful. For Fatima (as) did not imagine for herself or hope for a savior or shelter which she could trust could give her peace and protection, except to be near her Generous God and declining this life, inclusive of its bitterness and sweetness.
What can Fatima do with life and she sees her father (s), for the duration of his life, allied to sorrow? He spent his life with a teary eye, a sorrowful heart and grief within him because of distress over his family. He mourns for his son-Hussain from the start of his birth and on and on, when a baby, an infant, and a boy. Allah had taken the houses of his prophet (s) places of sorrow and crying since the birth of dear Hussain. The angels of his god arrive to him (s) in groups and singular, time after time, every now and then, announcing (the future death) of Hussain, they bring him his red dirt (earth) symbolizing in that his upcoming murder and death.
These are important Islamic historic events, a slice of which history did recorded for us, even though, due to the past circumstances only little reached us. Here is a brief list for you.
A rite (maatam) in the house of the Messenger of Allah (s)
“Ahmed and Ibn al-Dhahhak narrated from Ali (ra), said: I entered on the prophet (s) and his eyes a flooded, I said: Oh! Prophet of Allah, anyone made you angry? Why are your eyes flooded? He said: Gabriel just left me telling me that Hussain will be killed by the river Euphrates. He (prophet) said: So he (Gabriel) said: Do you want me to let you smell his dirt (from his burial pot)? I said: yes! He reached with his hand and grabbed and handful of dirt and gave it to me. So I could not help it and my eyes were flooded.”
Sunni Ref:
Thakhaer al-Uqba, Muhibbuldeen al-Tabari, p148.
A rite of infancy
“Abu Abdullah Mohammed bin Ali al-Jawhari, in Baghdad, told us: Abul Ahwas Mohammed bin al-Haitham al-Qadhi, from Mohammed bin Musaab, from al-Awzaei, from abi Ammar Shaddad bin Abdullah, from Ummul Fadhl the daughter of al-Harith. That she entered on the Messenger of Allah (s) and she said: Oh! Messenger of Allah, I saw a strange dream last night. He said: And what is it? She said: It is difficult. He said: And what is it? She said: I saw, as if, a piece of your body was severed and was put in my lap! The Messenger of Allah (s) said: You saw good - Fatima will give birth, God willing, a boy so he will be in your lap. Then Fatima gave birth to al-Hussain and he was in my lap - just as the Messenger of Allah (s) said. So I entered one day on the Messenger of Allah (s) and put his in his lap, but I noticed that the eyes of the Messenger of Allah (s) pouring tears! She said: So I said: Oh! Prophet of Allah, my parents are your ransom, what is with you? He said: Gabriel (pbuh) came to me and informed me that my nation (ummah) will kill this son of mine. I said: This one? He said: Yes, and he brought me dirt from his red dirt.”
al-Hakim said: This is a correct hadeeth (Saheeh) on the conditions of (Bukhari and Muslim) but they did not print it. He produced it in page 179, he said: Narrated abu al-Abbas Muhammad bin Ya’qoob, Muhammad bin Is-haq al-Sana’ni, Muhammad bin Isma’eel bin abi Summaiya, Muhammad bin Mus’ab, al-Awza’ei, abi Ammar that Ummul Fadhl said: The messenger of Allah (s) said - while Hussain in his lap - that “Gabriel (as) informed me that my nation (ummati) kills al-Hussain.”
He (al-Hakim) said: Ibn abi Summaiya has summarized this hadeeth. Other than Muhammad bin Mus’ab have narrated it in full.
Sunni Ref:
al-Mustadrak al-Saheeh, al-Hafidh al-Hakim al-Nisapouri, v3, p176.
Dalael al-Nubouwa, al-Hafidh al-Baihaqi.
It was produced by al-Hafidh al-Baihaqi in “Dalael al-Nubouwa” under the subject of Hussain (as). He said: Muhammad bin Abdullah al-Haifdh (al-Hakim al Nisapouri), abu Abdullah Mohammed bin Ali al-Jawhari in Baghdad, with the same narrators and text, as mentioned.
Al-Hafidh bin 'Asakir in Tareekh al-Shamm (History of Shamm) said: abu 'Abdullah al-Gharawi, abu-Bakr al-Baihaqi, Muhammad bin 'Abdullah al-Hafidh, the same as above.
Also said: Informed us abu al-Qasim bin al-Samarqandi, abu al-Hussain bin al-Naqoor, abu al-Hassan Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Umran (known as ibnul Jundi) abu Rawq Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Bakr al-Harati, al-'Abbas bin al-Faraj al-Raqqashi, Muhammad bin Ismaeel abu Summaiya, Muhammad bin Mus’ab supported as follows:
“I saw, Oh Messenger of Allah, a sighting I find too great to describe to you. He said: Tell it. She said: I saw as if a piece of you was cut and put in my lap! He (s) said: Fatima is pregnant, she will give birth to a boy whom I will name Hussain and she will put him in your lap. She said: So Fatima gave birth to Hussain and he was in my lap, to take care of him, so he entered on me one day and Hussain was with me and started playing with him for a while. Then his eyes filled with tears, so I said: what makes you cry? He said: This is Gabriel informing me that my nation (ummati) kills this son of mine!”
All the narrators are trusted and the hadeeth is “saheeh”.
A rite in the house of al-Sayyidah Ummu Salamah, Ummul Moemineen
Narration by Ya’la bin 'Ubaid, Musa al-Jahani, Salih bin Arbad al-Nakhei, Ummu Salamah said: “al-Hussain entered on the prophet (s), while I was sitting at the door, so I saw in the hand of the prophet (s) something he turned over while (Hussain) sleeping on his stomach. I said: Oh messenger of Allah, I looked and saw you turning something over in your hand when the kid was sleeping on your stomach and your tears were pouring? He said: Jibraeel came to me with the sand upon which he will be killed. And he informed me that my nation (umma) will kill him.”
Sunni Ref:
al-Musannaf, by al-Hafidh abu Bakr bin abi Shaibah, v 12
Narrated al-Hussain bin Is-haq al-Tustury, Ali bin Bahr, Issa bin Younis. And 'Ubaid bin Ghannam, abu-Bakr bin abi Sheibah, Ya’la bin 'Ubaid, the both said: Mousa bin Salih al Juhani, Salih bin Arbad, from Ummu Salama (ra) said: “The messenger of Allah said: Sit at the door, and don’t let anyone enter on me. So I sat at the door, then Hussain (ra) came by so I went to take him, but he raced me and entered on his grandfather. When that took long, I peaked from the door and saw you turning something in your hands and your tears running, and the kid on your stomach? He said: Yes, Gabriel (as) came to me and informed me that my nation (umma) will kill him. He brought me the sand on which he will be killed, which I was turning in my hands.”
**Sunni Ref:
al-Moejam al-Kabeer, al-Hafidh al-Tabarani, Subject of the martyr al-Hussain
A rite in the house of al-Sayyidah 'Aesha, Ummul Moemineen **
Narrated Ali bin Mohammad, 'Uthman bin Muqsim, al-Muqbari, from 'Aesha said: “While the messenger of Allah (s) was laying down, al-Hussain came crawling towards him so I moved him away from him and I got up to do something. So he got close to him and he woke up crying. So I said: What makes you cry? He said that: Gabriel showed me the sand on which Hussain will be killed. The anger of Allah is great on whomever sheds his blood. He opened his hands, in which a grab of sand. He said: Oh, 'Aesha, by the One whom my soul is in His hands, it saddens me! Who is this from my nation (umma) who kills Hussain after I am gone?!”
All the men of the narration are documented as trusted.
Sunni Ref:
al-Taba’qat al-Kubra, Ibn Saad
A rite in a gathering of the companions
Mu’awiya bin Husham, Ali bin Salih, Yazeed bin abi Ziad, Ibraheem (bin Yazeed al-Nakhei), 'Alqama (bin Qays al-Nakhei), 'Abdullah bin Masoud said: “While we were at the (house of) messenger of Allah (s) , a group from Bani Hashim approached. When the prophet (s) saw them his eyes overflowed and his color changed. I said to him: We see something you hate in your face? He said: We are the people of the household (Ahlul Bayte) Allah has chosen for us the thereafter over this world and that the family of my household will encounter after me trials, dispersement and expulsion. Until a people come forward from the east, along with them black flags, they ask for justice but it is not offered. So they fight and strike and are then given what they asked for. They don’t accept it until they push it forward to a man from my Ahlul Bayte. Then he fills it with justice as they filled it with injustice. Therefore, whomever lives to see that from among you should come to them, even if crawling on the snow.”
All the men of narration are trustworthy, as recorded.
Sunni Ref:
al-Musannaf, al-Hafidh abu-Bakr bin abi Shaibah, v 12
al-Sunan al-Saheeh, Ibn Majeh, v 2, p 518, section of appearance of the Mahdi
al-Hafidh abu-Jaafar al-'Uqayli (with the addition: “We said: Oh, messenger of Allah - We are not happy to see in your face something you hate.” )
al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v 4, p 464.
Akhbar Asbahan, by al-Hafidh abu Naeem al-Asbahani, v 2, p 12.
al-Moejam al-Kabeer, al-Tabarani, v 3.
A rite in Karbalaa by the father of the martyr, the Commander of Believers Ali (as)
Muhammad bin 'Ubaid, Sharhabeel bin Mudrik, Abdullah bin Naji: “his father walked with Ali (ra), when they reached Nainawa, the departure point to Siffien, Ali called: Be patient aba 'Abdullah! Be patient aba 'Abdullah at the river al-Furat (Euphrates)! I said: And what? He said: I entered on the messenger of Allah (s) one day and his eyes overflowing. I said: Oh, prophet of Allah! Anybody angered you? Why are your eyes overflowing (with tears)? He said: But Gabriel just left me and informed me: That al-Hussain will be killed at the river al-Furat (Shattul Furat). He said: Do you want me to show you from his sand? He said: I said yes. He extended his hand and grabbed and handful of dirt and gave it to me. So I could not help it, my eyes overflowed.”
**Sunni Ref:
al-Masnad, Ahmad bin Hanbal, v 2, pp 60-61.
**
Ibn Saad, Ali bin Muhammad, Yahya bin Zakariya, a man heard it from 'Amir al-Sha’bi say: “When Ali (as) passed by Karbalaa in his march to Siffien and lined up with Nainawa - a village on the Euphrates - he stopped and called one of them men: Tell aba 'Abdullah (al-Hussain ) what this land is called? He said: Karbalaa. Then he cried until the earth was wet from his tears. He then said: I entered on the messenger of Allah (s) and he was crying. So I said: What makes you cry? He said: Gabriel was with me, just now, and informed me: that my son al-Hussain will be killed at the banks of Furat in a location called Karbalaa. Then Gabriel grabbed a handful of dirt and let me smell it. So I could not help it, my eyes overflowed.”
Sunni Ref:
al-Tabaqat, Ibn Saad
al-Musannaf, Ibn Abi Shaibeh, v12 (with “Patience aba 'Abdullah, patience aba 'Abdullah.”
al-Moejam al-Kabeer, al-Tabarani, v 1
Tareekh al-Shamm, Ibn 'Asakir
============================================
Hope this satisfies you ammar.
salaam
ramesha
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by ramesha (edited December 28, 2000).]
and the award for the longest post goes to Ramesha. Nice cut n’ paste job
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
personally, i dont read anypost thats over, lets say 10 lines…
u asked for it!
In this wonderful gift of life that God gave u, brother you can’t even take out 10 mins to read a post on religon.
I don't like to sit long on the computer, and read posts of that size, simply cuz they take too much time. And i'm sure, most will agree that most of the stuff here gets posted over and over. I mean, i've read my fair share of posts on the shia / sunni debate, posts concerning hazrat ali (ra), and chances are i'veseen whats been posted here, on time or the other
ramesha.. thanks for the long post... but it still does not solve anything... i can't get to the referenced books in your post to read them myself..., so i still don't believe that there would be any reason for Prophet(PBUH) or us to grieve the way that you people do...
Anyway thanks for the post, but, i see this discussion heading nowhere.. its going to be belief against belief.. and it'll only result in every one of us defending our beliefs.. so for the moment i'll leave the discussion to you guys.. but do try to answer the other questions in my above post..
[This message has been edited by ammarr (edited December 28, 2000).]
Posted by a1shah:
Rarediamond;
It's nice to know that you still remember me after all this time.
Reply:
For your kind information, I remember you from your absurd posts. Your immature style of discussing subjects and your indecent, non respectable views about prominent Islamic figures has reflected thru everything you have ever posted in religion. Let’s look at some examples of your previous post:
Taken from the thread, “Questions about Ayesha:”
a1shah posted September 19, 2000 04:09 AM
Are you still an idiot to believe that your sahihs written by hypocrits like Bukhari are completely authentic ? When most hadiths were written by munafiqs like Abu Huraira and kafirs like Muawayah ?
Reply:
Wow real mature approach. Perpetually calling figures like Abu Huraira, other muslims hold dear Kafir. Astaghfirullah. Abu Huraira (PBUH) was among the students of Hazrat Ayesha (PBUH). He was one of Ashab e sufa. U can deny Abu Huraira's narrated hadiths, can u deny those narrated by Hazrat Abdullah bin Abbas (PBUH)? Cuz he was also among Hazrat Ayesha (PBUH)'s students.
Posted by a1shah:
You sunnis will never learn. Your prayers and all do not mean anything since you are all of those that are gumrah (misguided).
Not one of you sunnis have the talent to give opinions about the faults in your so called sham sahabahs.
Reply:
Can u tell me why is your azan different from that which is given in the House of Allah (Ka'aba?) Why is your kalima different from the one which is read in the House of Allah (Ka'aba?) Can u tell us, why you prostrate infront of a little piece of clay taken from Karbala? Why not the clay from Mecca or Medina? And who are to pass judgement on whose dua gets accepted and whose doesn't? Do u have the ability to look into a momin's or muslim's heart and determine the depth of his/her relationship with Allah without making any blunders? And by the way, we don't look for faults in sahabas, we don't look for those faults which Allah chooses to keep covered. We look at good deeds of people. And try to correct ourselves instead of pointing fingers at others.
posted by a1shah:
Aisha, the vile and malicious woman, who was commanded by Allah (swt) to stay in her house led a battle with the holy Imam - against whom enmity is kufar. So what do you think Aisha is ?
Reply:
No one holds the right to question Hazrat Ayesha (PBUH) when Allah has defended her in Soorah e Noor. Read below. And if u still have complains take it up there.
posted by a1shah:
There is no Islam unless you accept the ahl bait, for loving and following them is loving and following the holy messenger (pbuh), which in turn is fulfilling Allah (swt)'s command.
Reply:
Who gave that fatwa? U? Give me one Quranic ayah or valid hadith which states clearly that which you have stated above.
posted by a1shah:
You sunnis have to get it in yr heads - the fountain of knowledge resides with the holy ahl bait. Knowledge from anyone else is wrong and mis-guided.
Reply:
Knowledge not valid anywhere except for that from Quran, valid hadiths and sunnah. Knowledge from ahl al-bayt does not exceed knowledge from Prophet SAW or his sahabas, sahabiyaats or Umhatul Momineens. Doesn't even come close. Even Hazrat Ali (PBUH) never bragged about himself, nor did he ever admire such behavior. He never would have admired any of that which is written in Usul al-kafi p.309, Ibid p.308, Hayat al qulub p. 436, Bihar al anwar vol. 5; p.511.
Taken from the thread: “The name Ali on Moon…A miracle…” by Humble
A1shah posted on posted September 22, 2000 12:25 PM
Rarediamonds;
yr religion is based at much on what devious people like Aisha comments on the prophet's sunnah as it is on the Qur'an.
No, it is not clear to me why Aisha being the prophet's wife should be considered good without considering her past performance.
Reply:
Read Soorah e Noor. The word of Allah can not be contested in anyway.
posted by a1shah:
It was recited and taught to the ummat by the 12 holy imams in this form. If anyone says otherwise, he is a
kafir.
Reply:
Even the Prophet SAW was not allowed to claim something halal or haram without the consent of Allah. A statement such as the one above by you, which is false to start with let alone basing on that calling other muslims Kafirs is a hopeless situation on your end.
posted by a1shah:
September 21, 2000 10:21 PM
And btw, there are many verses in the Qur'an that show the greatness of Imam Ali (as), the holy ahl-bait, and Imam Mahdi (as).
Reply:
Quran does not, I repeat does not address Hazrat Ali (PBUH) directly anywhere. If Allah ever needed to address someone directly, He did so.
Posted by a1shah:
---------------------------------------------When the prophet is an illetrate normal human being in yr wahabi opinions, then what chance do the ahl bait have ?
Reply:
Wahabis, which don't exist to start with, not atleast in a cult or sect form, have never made such hideous claim. Acquire enough knowledge before you slandering others.
posted by a1shah:
You people have degraded to a status lower than the previous prophets for by yr definition, Jesus (as) is greater than our holy messenger - still living and born without a father.
Reply:
You have no respect for any Prophet do u?
We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers (2:285)
Posted by a1shah:
Your sham sahabas did not have any itch for the Khilafat which is why they didn't bother to attend the prophet's funeral and had their secret meeting at Saqifah - where none of the Bani Hashims were present.
And yes, it must have been the old man Abu Baker that the prophet wanted to choose - you know, the one that ran from battles, spent most of his time as a Kafir, and hurt the holy Lady of Light, Fatima Zahra.
Reply: Keeping your previous record in mind, as it very significantly sheds a light on the personality of the author himself, you presently claim:
A1shah posted December 25, 2000 04:19 AM
"You sunnis will resort to hit and run tactics because that is all that you know"
It’s surprising that you are accusing others of straying away from subject whereas, when I answered your query of the validity of the character of Hazrat Ayesha by a Quranic ayah in the thread of, "The name Ali on Moon…A miracle," started by Humble and when in that same thread you were later on asked to point out where in Quran or Sunnah Hazrat Ali (PBUH) is named a caliph, you decided to take on a leave of absence, claiming you didn’t want to humiliate Islam. If your above statements are not derogatory towards religion, then I do not know what is! And all those statement of yours are about Islamic figures only, I have yet to remind you of your behavior towards fellow muslims on this site while addressing them on issues. And the name calling/labelling you have done was perpetual in order to provoke others to fire grenades at you.
Posted by a1shah:
Well sweetie, I have a message for you - I don't need yr friendship, love, or unity at the expense of the truth. You sunnis intrepret Imam Ali's (as) decision to fire every corrupt official during his caliphate as political suicide. He should have worked with the corrupt officials you sunnis say - Movia (Allah's curse be on him) was a genius in politics you sunnis shout.
Reply:
Good to see that you haven’t improved any since you were posting here last. Wether yours posts accomplished anything else or not they surely have succeeded in showing your true colors, just the way the real personalities of some of your other shi’ah buddies have came forward over time. These attacks still prove nothing other than your style of correspondonce and your furry at not being able to answer issues directly without making personal attacks at the one u are addressing. Keep up the hard work, if not your other good deeds this one will definitely land you in heaven.
Posted by a1shah:
Here lies the difference. I will not go into further detail. Suffice it is to say that you sunnis are not followers of the sunnat of the holy prophet (pbuh). No, you are followers of your 4 self-proclaimed imams (Shafai and the likes).
Reply:
We follow Quran and sunnah ONLY. We do NOT follow Imams. Let me say this again, the rank of an imam is much lower compared to that of a prophet’s, sahaba’s, sahabiyah’s, or even umhatul momineens’. The Prophet SAW did not take a guarantee of even his daughter’s salvation, let alone her descendants? Whose word is more important, valid & significant: Allah’s or an Imam’s? Astaghfirullah!
Posted by a1shah:
Our imams are sources of salvation while yr imams need salvation themselves.
Reply:
Nothing, let me repeat this once again in bold for you. NOTHING can be a source of salvation other than Quran and sunnah. We don’t consider the word of your imams above Quran or Sunnah. And when we do that you start with your ridiculous name calling. Na aisay chain hai na waisay.
Posted by a1shah:
Aisha in battle against the beloved Imam Ali - why no comments
Reply:
Regardless of what sahabas, sahabiyaats, & umhatul momineens did, for us they are all equal. Wanna know why? Cause they supported the Prophet SAW in all times, in all situations, in all locations, in all events unhesitantly. They grieved over the death of Prophet SAW’s kids, at the death of their own kids, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, sons, daughters, but not to the point where it made them so bitter that it started clashing with their beliefs or became a cause of fitna among the ummah.
Let me reply to the posting of your friend Paglu there and then I’ll get back with you on the long-awaited soorah e Tehreem, so hold your horses and don’t start trippin'.
Posted by Paglu:
Hi there missy, well first of all go and ask your aalims who Omar was before claiming that hazrat ALI (as) married BIBI UM-e-KULSOOM to omar.
Well now since you have made your point, listen to what i have to say. Till now i have been quiet. UMAR ibne Khitaab. WHat you know about him. You know who his MOHTER WAS. you know FOUR diff people claimed to be his FATHER when he was born. Did you also know his mother was a very FAMOUS...lets just say Aaurat.
Did you also know BIBI fatima (as) died at the age of 18. Did you also know that before dieing she had her unborn hazrat Mohsin shaheed inside her. You know why. Becuz Umar ibne Khitaab had set burn a door which had felt on bibi Fatima (as). When giving Bibi Fatima ghusal, hazrat Ali looked at her zakhams and cried.....this was sher-e-Khuda crying....the Lion of allah....and the zakham wali lady was no one but our prophet's daughter.....Bibi Fatima....ask your aalims and see what they say of all this....Aftar telling all this ask them then Was bibi Um-e-Khulsoom married to Pisr-e-KHITAAB.
And you might want to read more about KHITAAB.
Hazrat ALi never bowed infront of a BUTT or a MOORTI and while SOME people infront of them till they were MADE TO accept Islam.
When time came they Ran away in OHAD and Khaiber and Khandak. It was hazrat Ali who killed their ancestors and rode on Hazoor's back to break each and everyone of their 361 moorties they had in Khanna-e-Kaaba.
PLEASE Dont make me say more things.....
later
[This message has been edited by Pagluu (edited December 25, 2000).]
Rely:
A while back on a different thread your buddy a1shah, said something which wasn't much different from that which you have stated. Here was his frustrations about Hazrat Umer (PBUH).
posted by a1shah:
September 24, 2000 08:50 PM
---------------------------------------------But ofcourse, since we are talking about Umar the tyrant, we should do one of the following sunni actions;
1) Ignore the Quranic ayats
2) Come with a unique intrepretation of the ayat.
3) Ignore this particular hadith in SAHIH BUKHARI and take the rest of the hadiths as authentic AND still consider Bukhari and Co free from errors.
4) Avoid this topic altogether and move on with false beliefs.
I think that I have covered all what you sunnis like to do.
Umar, the one who doubted the prophethood of the holy messenger (pbuh). Yeah, he was really good.
Reply:
Goes for both of you!
I do not accept a verbal garbage disposal of words. Anything you say will be held and counted against you in the long run. Therefore, for every event you have mentioned above, support it with an authentic ayah or hadith. And as far as that incident with Hazrat Fatimah is concerned regarding the door-dropping by Hazrat Umar, I have never read anything as ridiculous.
As far as Hazrat Umer himself goes, the nite before he accepted Islam, Prophet SAW had prayed to Allah, that from among Hazrat Umer and Abu Jahal, bless the one with Islam who Allah SWT liked more and thru him grant strength to Islam. And the next day Hazrat Umer accepted Islam. SubhanAllah. It is also a well-known Hadith where the Prophet SAW has quoted, "shaitan doesn’t walk anywhere even near that place where Hazrat Umer walks." That shows how strong Umer (PBUH)’s taqwa was. Another where the Prophet SAW said that had the prophecy continued after him, and had there been another prophet after Prophet SAW, it would have been Hazrat Umer (PBUH). Initially it was Hazrat Umer (PBUH) who was in favor of women covering themselves fully which was later revealed as also the word of Allah in Soorah e Noor. People who accepted the word of Allah SWT thru the revealations of Hazrat Muhammad SAW came from all backgrounds, colors, creeds, ethnicities, religious beliefs and so forth. When they embraced Islam all their sins were forgiven, regardless of what their past sins had been. Over a period of hundreds of years, to us today far more important should be their overall deeds and how they spent day and night spreading the word of Allah SWT to lands near ‘n far, during and after the life of Prophet SAW. The conflicts they had between themselves are between them and Allah SWT only. Had the muslim men of today been there back then instead of these sahabas, it is a scary thought where Islam would have gotten. It is more relevant to look at one’s own flaws and try to correct them instead of pointing fingers in the collars of people who Allah held dear as well as His Prophet SAW held dear. By the way a little suggestion for you, it’s not a very successful tactic verbally abusing the religious figures others hold dear. You hacking their seven generations before and after is not doing any damage to them, as they have been gone for a long time. It’s you yourself you are degrading in the eyes of the One who is the All-Wise, All Knower, and the most powerful force of this universe.
Coming back to you a1shah:
Soora e Tehreem.
This is a very relevant soorah in which Allah has shed light on some really significant matters thru the wives of the Prophet SAW.
The first and foremost is that only Allah SWT holds the right to declare something halal or haram. When it came to that matter even the Prophet didn’t have the power to declare anything for sure, let alone other ordinary people. The Prophet SAW can label something as halal or haram only and only if Allah has labeled it halal or haram also. Regardless of wether Allah ordered it in Quran or thru revealations. But the Prophet himself can not claim anything halal, haram which obviously knocks out even the slightest possibility of anyone else doing it. Infact the Prophet SAW was so careful of additions or subtractions in deen, that when his son Abraham (Ibraheem) passed away, the Prophet SAW said, "O Abraham, I grieve at your death, but I only say and do what makes Allah content." He didn’t do matam. That day a solar eclipse was witnessed and town’s people thought it was because of the passing away of Abraham. When the Prophet SAW heard this, he denied it and said it had nothing to do with the death of his son.
So, give me a Quranic ayah or a valid hadith which allows Matam. Infact one is not allowed to grieve the death of a loved one for more than 3 days. Only a widow is allowed the longest grieving period, at the passing away of her husband which is 4 months and 10 days. But even in that case matam is not allowed.
Second important issue raised is that in a society or community the position or rank of a prophet is very critical and sensitive. Something which happens to an ordinary person might not have any implications on society or anyone else, other than for that person himself/herself. However, something which takes place in a prophet’s life can become the "rule of the religion or land." Therefore, Allah SWT has kept a strict and close watch on the lives of the Prophets and Messengers in order to avoid anything which might clash with the orders of Allah. If any prophet did anything which might contradict that which is expected out of all muslims, then Allah corrected him right away, so that Sha’riah, in authentic shape, in the form of Quran and hadiths can be preserved and passed on generation after generation.
Third issue which comes forward thru this ayah is that when Allah SWT addressed Prophet SAW on a very ordinary concern, it brings the readers a peace of mind and satisfaction that everything stated in this book and that in hadiths is all true and authentic. Therefore, in Quran and hadiths all can look for their salvation.
Fourth important issue is that though accepting the rank of Prophet SAW and keeping him dearest over all our family members is a strong part of Islamic faith, yet when even he did something unintentionally to please his wives, Allah addressed him. And the beloved wives of the Prophet SAW, whom Allah has declared umhatul momineens (mother of all momineens) and whose respect has been ordered upon all muslims are the ones Allah has addressed in this ayah. However they were not addressed secretly, but revealed in Quran which muslims will read all over the world, for as long as they live. It is obvious, that by doing so Allah by no means intented to degrade the Prophet SAW or his wives in the eyes of the Ummah. And it is also understood, that after reading this soorah, no true muslim would respect them any lesser. Then the only purpose left of mentioning them could be nothing other than the fact, that Allah SWT wanted to very clearly state the position of our religious forefathers, mothers and other figures. By addressing them directly and openly in Quran Allah shows to us, how much He Himself holds them dear. By this incident which is described in Soorah e Tehreem the following is also implied:
A prophet is a prophet, not a God. He is human being flesh and blood, and not supernatural. If he can follow the deen, so can everyone else.
We are not to respect the Prophet because he is anything other than human. He is flesh and blood and not some other creation. We respect him because he is the Messenger of Allah. And we (the followers) can have the satisfaction that his actions and decisions were guided and guarded by none other than Allah SWT. Therefore, his Sunnah and Quran have been preserved in the most purest form, in which they were sent by Allah. Therefore, Allah’s word and the Sunnah is not to be questioned or mocked with in any way what-so-ever.
Sahabas, sahabiyats, umhatul momineens were all people not angels or jinns. They were able to make mistakes and whenever the sahabas or sahabiyats made a mistake they were either corrected in Quran or in hadiths. Allah corrected them openly so we will know they were humans. And we can clearly differentiate them from God. And avoid giving them a divine rank. If we read Quran with open eyes there are many examples:
E.G. in Soorah e Nur Allah defended the character of Hazrat Ayesha (PBUH) when everyone was too busy slandering:
*Why then, did not the believers , men and women, when you heard it (the slander), think good of their own people and say: “This (charge) is an obvious lie?” (ayah12)
Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they (the slanderers) have not produced witnesses! Then with Allah they are liars. (13)
Had it not been for the Grace of Allah and His Mercy unto you in this world and in the Hereafter, a great torment would have touched you for that whereof you had spoken. (14)
When you were propagating it with your tongues, and uttering with your mouths that whereof you had no knowledge, you counted it a little thing, with Allah it was very great.(15)
And why did you not, when you heard it, say: “It is not right for us to speak of this. Glory is to You (O Allah)! This is a great lie.”(16)
Allah forbids you from it and warns you not to repeat the like of it forever, if you are believers.(17)*
Therefore, a1shah, Ramesha, Salman and all those who were twisting the connotations of Soorah e Tehreem, no where in Soorah e Tehreem does it say that the wives are not ahl al-bayt. And a1shah, Allah SWT defending the character of Hazrat Ayesha in Soorah e Noor specially ayah 17, where believers are differentiated from non believers should answer your’s and your buddies’ query about the validity of Hazrat Ayesha’s character.
Posted by Salman:
Btw the ayat is not continious. There is a break just before "Allah only..."
This Ayah has 2 parts. In the First part Allah(SWT) is talking to the wives of the Prophet(SAWS) by a feminine pronoun. In the second part
"..Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness(rijs) from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying"
Reply:
Salman, english is not a very difficult language, for some it may be at times. When Allah is clearly addressing the wives you can not assume, "Oh wait the next part is addressed to whoever I choose to relate it too." I have already cleared that point several times and I am not going to play a cat and mouse chase of words with you. Other people understood it, there is no reason why you shouldn’t. Quit mocking religion. This is Quranic ayahs we are talking about, not some fictional story.
There was one more thing I wanted to shed some light upon, and that is the beggar incident which is so repeatedly brought up by the opposing party after every couple of days.
posted by a1shah:
September 23, 2000 01:26 AM
------------------------------------------The holy Qur'an has told you in 55:55, that the Master is Allah, his prophet, and believers, those that give charity while in prostration. This is in clear reference to Imam Ali (as) but be sure to get the correct english translation. Sunni translation of this verse gives a completely new meaning, so be sure to get a person fluent in Arabic to translate it for you.
Here u go...
"Your patron is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed- those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship]." Surah al-Ma’idah (5:55)
Usul al-Kafi, the famous book of shi’ah narrations, gives the following interpretation of this verse:
"One day, Ameer al-Mu’mineen [the Commander of the Believers, i.e., Ali] was offering his noon prayer and had completed the first two rak’ahs. He was wearing a costly mantle worth 2,000 dirhams. The Ethiopian emperor had earlier sent it to the Prophet (SAW), but he had given it to Ali. At that moment a beggar arrived and cried out, 'O Trustee of Allah and Commander of the Believers, give some charity to the beggar.' Ali threw away his mantle and indicated with his finger that the beggar should take it. Allah then revealed this verse [indicating that Ali is the patron or master of the believers.]" Usul al-Kafi , p.177
Another contemporary shi’ah book, Imamate by S. Rizvi, reports the incident in an entirely different manner.
"One day, a beggar came to the mosque where the Prophet SAW with his companions were offering prayer. He begged for alms, but nobody gave him anything. The beggar then raised his finger towards sky and cried out, 'O Allah, be a witness that I came to the Prophet’s mosque and nobody gave me a thing.' Ali at that time was bowing in ruku. He pointed his little finger on which was a ring towards the beggar, who then came forward and took it from Ali’s hand. Allah then revealed this verse declaring Ali to be the master of the believers." Imamate, p.36
Let’s look at a couple of things here, which come to one’s mind after reading the above Shi'ah claims.
All pronouns in this verse are plural. If Allah had meant Ali alone, the Quran would have used the singular form.
It is universally known that Ali was a very poor man who would not be likely to have worn a 2,000 dirham cloak. Shi’ah sources also testify to this effect. E.g.: "When the Prophet (SAW) arranged Fatima (PBUH)’s marriage to Ali, Fatima (PBUH) said to the Prophet (SAW), 'The ladies of Quraysh taunt me that your father has given you in marriage to person who is destitute.'" Jalal al-Ayun, vol. 2, pp.65 and 179
The beggar who came to the Prophet’s mosque addressed Ali as the trustee of Allah and commander of the believers, showing that the beggar was a muslim. Thus, he could not have expected that the people would respond to him during the prayer and would have waited until its completion.
One should note that according to the narration, the Prophet (SAW) ignored the beggar and continued his prayer. All those present followed the Prophet (SAW), but Ali acted independently. By responding to the beggar during prayer, he did what was preferred by Allah according to this interpretation. The implication is that Ali excelled the Prophet (SAW) in judgement and virtue. Obviously, this is just another of the shi’ah extrapolations which is far from the truth.
This shi’ah interpretation also raised questions about Ali’s devotion and concentration during prayer. Other accounts confirm that even severe physical pain did not distract him from his prayers. Even if the beggar had indeed sought to interrupt him, Ali could not have conceded to this breach of Islamic behavior.
Ibn Khateer, the renowned Qurani commentator, wrote: "Some people, imagining that the last part of the verse refers to one’s state while giving zakah, translated it as, 'give zakah while they are bowing [in ruku].' This is absurd. If that contention is accepted, it would mean that paying zakah is most recommended in the position of ruku, yet no scholar ever advocated this. Those who narrated that Ali was bowing in ruku, when a beggar asked for charity and Ali gave him his ring – not one person in the chain of narrators is reliable and trustworthy." Tafseer Ibn Katheer, vol. 1
I do not indulge in shi’ah sunni debates. I could care less what you do and what you believe in, but when you come into a forum and lash out at all the other believers with not even anything valid to begin with. Instead with just a bunch of foul, disrespectful words, "facts" (as u put them), which either don’t exist to start with or are not written in their truest form, that is wrong. We don’t mock your religion and expect you not to step in our territory either. If u will continue to argue for the sake of arguing, there will come a point and time where u will realize all the contradictions of your religion and will start to question your own belief. You're exploiting only Shi'ahism and no other religion. You can not do any harm to anyone else, other than yourself.
Reply:
Salman, english is not a very difficult language, for some it may be at times. When Allah is clearly addressing the wives you can not assume, "Oh wait the next part is addressed to whoever I choose to relate it too." I have already cleared that point several times and I am not going to play a cat and mouse chase of words with you. Other people understood it, there is no reason why you shouldn’t. Quit mocking religion. This is Quranic ayahs we are talking about, not some fictional story.
There was one more thing I wanted to shed some light upon, and that is the beggar incident which is so repeatedly brought up by the opposing party after every couple of days.
As-Salamun-Alaikum Sister
I am not making a mockery out of this ayah. please stop slandering me
"Oh wait the next part is addressed to whoever I choose to relate it too."
I am just baffled here. I am providing you with clear proof here. In the first half of the Ayah Allah(SWT is talking to the wives of the prophet(SAWS) in a plural feminine pronoun. In the second part Allah is referring to the Ahlul Bayt(AS) in a Combined masculine pronoun. In a combined masculine pronoun. The majority is male the minority is female.
when you add the wives the majority becomes of female which does not agree with the masculine pronoun used. So there is no way you can include the wives.
SISTER RAREDIAMONDS IS THIS REALLY MAKING A MOCKERY OF QURANIC AYAHS OR PRESENTING THE AYAH IN ITS RIGHT FORMAT? BE HONEST PLEASE FEAR ALLAH
and donot slander your brother in Islam.
I am not here to convince you to be shia. I am here to clear away misconceptions
I have also posted another thread with hadith from sahih bukhari and Sahih muslim that clearly tell you that the wives weren't not included. Sister so why the pointless arguing.
Exactly in which part of my posting am i making a mockery? pleas enlighten me?
May Allah show you the way of the righteous
Wa-Salamun-Alaikum-Wa-Rahmatullahi-Wa-Barakatu
As-Salamun-Alaikum
Imam Jaffar al Sadiq (May Allah be Pleased with him.) says:
''It is easier to see the foot of a black ant on a black stone in a dark room at night ... than to recognize pride in oneself.''
Sis Rarediamonds, I hope this does not apply to you
take care
wa-salamun-alaikum-wa-rahmatullahi-wa-barakatu
Peace on Muhammad(SAWS) and his Ahlul Bayt
“I have already cleared that point several times and I am not going to play a cat and mouse chase of words with you. Other people understood it, there is no reason why you shouldn’t.”
Oh no you don’t
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
you can’t get away that easily. . Other people understood it, may i know who did?.
“…there is no reason why you shouldn’t.”
The only reason i’ll understand is if you actually provide a ‘reason’ to understand
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
you know a hadith.
On the contrary I through the use of hadith from sahih muslim and bukahri and through the grammatical structure of the ayah have proven to you that the wives were not members of the ahlul-bayt.
If your using this as an excuse to give up then might as well admit it, because your wasting reader’s time here
no hard feelings I just dont like people who are stubborn
Wa-Salamun-Alaikum-Wa-Rahmatullahi-Wa-Barakatu