Posted by analyze it:
If she is right and shia believe that quran has been altered, what about (Allah promising that quran can not changed) and what about muslims claiming and boasting to christians about authenticity of Quran??
Reply:
When Christians and Jews altered Bible and Torah, the exact location of alteration couldn’t be located, in comparison against the authentic one or by whom (in some cases). However, because Allah SWT has promised to guard Quran, if someone dares to mock it, it can be very easily caught, even by a very ordinary reader. My post does not show that Quran has been altered because it can not be. That’s Allah’s promise. The only thing it shows is how members of Fiqah e Jafariya take and twist the meanings to mention nothing but Ali, which is not the case. Quran is very straight forward. If Allah wanted to address someone, He did.
In response to my question analyze it posted:
---------------------------------------------On the other hand, is not it true that wife and daughters are given half the share as compared to sons in Islam? Is it true?
If yes,does it mean they are given inferior status?
Reply: Sure in terms of inheritance they rreceive a lesser amount from their paternal side. However that does not exclude them from being members of their husbands family by any means. Infact by giving them share in inheritance, eventhough it might be lower compared to that which the brother inherits, Allah shows clearly that women do have a valid and significant place in the family.
Posted by analyze it:
RD: Having a different azan in Kaaba from what shias azan is, does not automaticallly assume that shias azan is wrong. The azan in Kaaba could also be wrong. If kaaba ia occupied by a non muslim or some other sect and they pray there according to their beliefs, it would not make their pray method correct just because they are praying in Kaaba.Same goes for kalima. It is a matter of beliefs and has little to do with logic.
Reply: It’s not the question of right and wrong at this moment. That issue is yet to be addressed. I have a question, these people call themselves members of ahl al-bayt, desperately in love with the Prophet SAW’s family, yet they mock everything which is Islamic? Why is the azan different from that in Kaa’baa stands yet to be answered.
Posted by a1shah:
May Allah reward you appropriately for all the false propaganda that people of yr kind spread. If such falsity is what is written about Shias in YOUR general books, you sunnis are indeed a sad case.
Reply:
It is not from “MY” book. The authentic ayahs are from Quran. The other twisted and turned ones are from Shi’ah renowned books.
Posted by a1shah:
Rarediamond;
Being ignorant that you are, you would not know that Shia scholars have NEVER claimed the perfection of al-Kafi. There are hadiths in there which have been classified as strong, weak, and rejected.
Reply:
The alterations aren’t only from al-kafi. There are others as well such as Translation and Commentary of Quran, Hayat al-Qulub, Kashf al-Asrar etc. So you are saying all of these have been classified as “strong, weak, and rejected?” Gotcha. No wonder folks from fiqah e Jafariya are so confused!
Posted by a1shah:
Better than yr sahih books which you sunnis follow blindly regardless of who transmits those hadiths and whether they agree with the Quran or not.
Reply:
You do not have a likeness for Sahih books obvioulsy. Let me tell you, your buddies have made a point they don’t either. Yet Salman, chooses to quote from something he doesn’t believe in? Men of your word you guys are. Another thing to be noted that you just claimed in the sentence right before this last one that al-kafi (along with the others I quoted from) are “strong, weak and rejected.” Yet now u r saying that they are better than Sahih books? Your books are not authentic according to you. Sunni books are not authentic according to you either. You believe Quran is not complete, exactly what religion or divine source are you following?
Posted by a1shah:
Secondly, to many a sunni’s surprise, the way they perform wu’du is wrong and not in complaince with the holy Qur’an. The holy book clearly states (not the exact translation but) “And wash yr hands and face, and wipe yr head and feet”. A clear distinction has been made between what is to be washed and wiped. The Master of Arabic language, Rare, should be able to verify this simple instruction. But you sunnis go scrubbing yr feet and head like there’s no tomorrow.
Reply:
Wu’du. That’s the best you could do? Hypothetically speaking (not that it’s true) our way of wu’du might be different, but not our basic beliefs. And we do not curse sahabas and sahabiyats or question the past present future of Umhatul Momineens.
Posted by a1shah
Thirdly, shias prostrate on a piece of clay in direct obedience with the instructions of the prophet of Allah (swt). The holy messenger has ordered us to do sajdah on earth, and not on yr man made carpets and cloths that you sunnis do it on.
Do it on the bare floor of your house. Why the little piece of clay from Karbala? Or did you have a whole barrel of Karbala sand shipped to your house and embedded in the floors?
Posted by a1shah
Our kalima:
La illa ha illal La
There is no diety but Allah (swt)
Muhammed dar Rasulallah
Muhammed (pbuh) is his Rasool
Ali yun Waliullah
Ali (as) is his successor.
The Kalima in Quran has been mentioned at several places. And it’s “only” La illaha Illlal Lah, Muhammad ur Rasool Allah. Does not say Ali waliullah at even one place.
Posted by Salman:
---------------------------------------------SALAM
DEAR READIAMONDS
CAN YOU PROVE TO ME THAT THE 4 HADITH REGARDING THE MEMBERS OF THE AHLUL BAYT ARE WRONG
CAN YOU PROVE TO ME THAT THE 2 HADITH REGARDING THE TARWIH ARE WRONG
CAN YOU?
Reply:
( And) abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give Zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah wants only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet’s] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.
Perhaps it takes u a while to grasp issues. Let me make this crystal clear once again.
Under the circumstances in which this ayah was revealed, clearly shows that “ahl al-bayt” refers to the wives of the Prophet SAW. Why? Because the Arabic ayah starts out with Ya Niss’sa Un Nabi which word-to-word translates to women of the Prophet. If only Hazrat Fatimah (PBUH) was being addressed why would it be women and not woman? “Ya Niss’sa Un Nabi” shows it’s the Niss’sa (women) who are being addressed through out. “Ahl al-bayt” in Arabic has exactly the same connotations as the Urdu word “ghar walay.” When one uses the word “ghar walay,” it includes one’s wife and children. Both. No one separates his wife from “ghar walay or ahl e khana.” In Quran the word “ahl al-bayt” has also been used at two other places. And in both cases it referred to the wives. Infact the wives were the priorities of those ayahs. Let me requote one of those incidents from my other post again!
The Quran records an incident in the house of Prophet Abraham. When the angels gave him the good news of a son and a grandson, his wife exclaimed, “Shall I bear a child while I am an old woman…” The angels replied:
“Are you amazed at the decree of Allah? May the mercy of Allah and His blessings be upon you, people of the household.”(11:73)
The second place is in Surah e Qasus. When Hazrat Musa (PBUH) reaches the palace of the Pharaoh, and the Pharaoh’s wife is looking for a sitter, Hazrat Musa (PBUH)'s sister tells the Pharaoh’s wife, “Hul adud to kum 'Ala Ahl-e-baytin Yukfulu na hu Lakum.” Meaning “Can I tell you of a household (ghar walay) who can deal with the responsibility of taking care of this kid?” The sayings of Quran, references, and the way vocab and grammar is used, it shows without the slightest doubt that Prophet SAW’s ahl al-bayt includes both, his wives as well as his (SAW)'s aal aulad. Infact the wives are the main ones since they are the ones being addressed in this ayah. And because of this Hazrat Ibn e Abbas (PBUH), Hazrat Orwah Bin Zubair (PBUH) and Hazrat Akrama (PBUH), all agree that in this ayah “ahl al-bayt” refers to the wives of the Prophet.
Ibn e Abi Hatim narrates that once when Hazrat Ayesha (PBUH) was asked about Hazrat Ali (PBUH) she answered, “You are asking me about a man who was among the beloved of Prophet SAW, and whose wife was that daughter of the Prophet’s who was dearest to him (SAW).” After this Hazrat Ayesha related the incident in which Prophet SAW called Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Fatima & al-Husnain (PBUT) and covered them with a piece of cloth. Upon this Hazrat Ayesha asked Prophet SAW that I am also from your ahl al-bayt, (hinting that she wanted to be covered by the piece of cloth also). The Prophet SAW replied, “You are already a member of my ahl al-bayt.”
Now this is what you posted in the other thread:
December 31, 2000 02:02 AM
Book 031, Number 5920:
Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him: Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah’s call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren’t his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja’far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.
Reply: This does not say that the wives are not part of ahl al-bayt. The wives do not qualify for zakat. This hadith only adds Hazrat Fatima, Hazrat Ali and their kids to the list. It does not deprive the Umatul Momineen membership of ahl al-bayt. Give it up!
Posted by Salman:
Book 031, Number 5915:
Book 031, Number 5923:
Yazid b. Hayyan reported: We went to him (Zaid b. Arqam) and said to him. You have found goodness (for you had the honour) to live in the company of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and offered prayer behind him, and the rest of the hadith is the same but with this variation of wording that lie said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error, and in this (hadith) these words are also found: We said: Who are amongst the members of the household? Aren’t the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.
Reply: The reader must keep two things in mind. One, the usage of the word “variation” up there. Variation means, “Marked difference or deviation from the normal or recognized form, function, or structure.” Variations are not always authentic. It is stated that in the hadith, “rest of the hadith is the same but with this variation of wording.” By using the word “variation,” the narrator himeself clearly does not take responsibility of the “validity of this variation.” Various references in Islamic history show that the Prophet SAW did not allow his wives to accept Zakat of any sort. That’s the reason most probably why the narrator doesn’t accept this hadith as “valid.” Another point to be noted here: in your first hadith, the narrator Zaid b. Arqam admits, “I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah’s Messenger.” Last but not least, Zaid b. Arqam quotes the Prophet SAW as saying, “one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah.” When it clearly states in the Quran, what are you trying to prove here?
Posted by Salman:
---------------------------------------------This hadith has been narrated. on the authority of Shu’ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa’d b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa’d as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camelg. I heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about 'Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'All said to him: Allah’s Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren’t you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.
Reply:
It quotes the Prophet SAW as saying, “O Allah, they are my family.” It doesn’t say, wives are not members of ahl al-bayt.
All Sunni/Wahabi scholars unanimously draw the same conclusion that the Prophet SAW took Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Fatima and their kids (PBUT) under cover because the wives were already members of ahl-al-bayt. He (SAW) feared that people would not consider Hazrat Fatima and family Prophet SAW’s family members since the ayah was addressed only to the wives. The wives were part of ahl al-bayt with a unanimous agreement of all muslim scholars.
That issue has been settled for a while. Some people are so slow in comprehending
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Thirdly, Mr. Salman, you have at several places quoted that you do not believe in the authenticity of Sahih Bukhari. It’s ironic that to prove your false point, you choose to quote from a book you don’t believe in to start with?
I demand an answer in the light of Quran or authentic hadith to the following Questions:
“it’s not low to attack Sahabas, right? It’s not low to mudsling Hazrat Umer and Hazrat Abu Bakr? It’s not low to twist Quranic Surahs and ayahs? It’s not low to call Hazrat Ayesha (PBUH) names? It’s not low to interfer with the word of Allah regarding Ahl al-bayt when it’s so prominently pointed out in Quran?”
“would u not consider your mother a part of your father’s family? If you say the wives are not members of ahl-al bayt, then that is implying that no females in this world are a part of their husband’s family as they can be divorced anytime?”
“Can u tell me why is your azan different from that which is given in the House of Allah (Ka’aba?) Why is your kalima different from the one which is read in the House of Allah (Ka’aba?) Can u tell us, why you prostrate infront of a little piece of clay taken from Karbala? If you consider the clay tabar’ruk (respectable), then why not the clay from Mecca or Medina? And by the way, we don’t look for faults in sahabas, we don’t look for those faults which Allah chooses to keep covered. We look at good deeds of people. And try to correct ourselves instead of pointing fingers at others. And also would u care to enlighten us, as to why Shi’ahs do not read Taraweeh during the month of Ramadan, when all sunni sects do? Why do you deprive yourself from this specialty of Ramadan when it’s nothing other than verbal recitation of Quran?”
[This message has been edited by Rarediamonds & Gold (edited January 04, 2001).]