Ali and Praying under the influence

^ i think both you and DR are not very far apart codie.

Im not bound to accept this as history to begin with. If anything I would think that someone as good as Ali would be one of the 'many' who gave up alcohol on the politer suggestion of the prophet and not the intransigent ones characterized as "jin ki ghutti mai sharab mili thi".

Usually, especially when talking about contentious personalities, people add the caveat that Tirmizi is not as reliable as sahih bukhari and sahih muslim, which did not include this hadis.

We dont worry about bigger problems, unfortunately. Zakir Naik is virtually persona non grata for shias after his yazid comments, and my feeling is so will this guy be. Therefore it is important to confront and talk about this rather than hide from it.

Clearly someone who has spent time with shias. That is indeed the mindset, especially if they know you're a sunni interested in shia beliefs they will try to overwhelm your senses with Ali's praises.

The problem is DR that you must have done this during Muharram, when there are visiting molvies who's profession it is to get money and travel to exotic places like america and bradford to do the 10 majalis. They are professional 'zakirs', and while they appear to be proper aalims, usually they are very specialised to delivering those speeches. And in order to be successful you dont have to aim to deliver very intellectual speeches either, hucksterism will get you very, very far.

I've suggested this to you before, it is a much better idea to try to get as much as possible from the websites of people like sistani or khamenei. better still do something like what mooli did i.e. go to iran and study with them.

although ultimately it is very sad that you have to go to such lengths to find someone who wouldnt react like our part time muharram molvies do. And you have a very good point about the suppression of sahaba virtues much like the nawasib for ali.

however this i dont understand: what is the purpose in remembering these personalities? historical accuracy, a debt owed to them or the desire to remember them because they were narrators of ahadith?

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Clearly someone who has spent time with shias. That is indeed the mindset, especially if they know you're a sunni interested in shia beliefs they will try to overwhelm your senses with Ali's praises.

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I actually pose as a 12er shia when i am there, but i see what ur saying

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The problem is DR that you must have done this during Muharram, when there are visiting molvies who's profession it is to get money and travel to exotic places like america and bradford to do the 10 majalis. They are professional 'zakirs', and while they appear to be proper aalims, usually they are very specialised to delivering those speeches. And in order to be successful you dont have to aim to deliver very intellectual speeches either, hucksterism will get you very, very far.

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I appreciate greatly ur objectivity

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I've suggested this to you before, it is a much better idea to try to get as much as possible from the websites of people like sistani or khamenei. better still do something like what mooli did i.e. go to iran and study with them.
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bro there is a even better source the muslim scholars who teach islamic history/hadith in western universaties many of them are practising 12er shia.

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although ultimately it is very sad that you have to go to such lengths to find someone who wouldnt react like our part time muharram molvies do. And you have a very good point about the suppression of sahaba virtues much like the nawasib for ali.

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very grateful that u acknowledged that

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however this i dont understand: what is the purpose in remembering these personalities? historical accuracy, a debt owed to them or the desire to remember them because they were narrators of ahadith?
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all of the 3 esp. third point thats why the whole field of rijal was created and more specifically related to our discussion when we look at the relationship between the early companions and the Imams of 12ers the picture which emerges is not consistent with the concept of imamate as it was formulated after time of imam jafar to imam reza.Thats why most 12er hadith are also narrated from time of imam baqir and later.

i agree its the best compromise first formed in times of umar b abdul aziz as a neccesary measure to heal divisions amongst the ummah.

what is even more terrible is the reason why cursing was intiated , it was not simply because muawiyah felt some personal satisfaction with it but had a even more sinister reason it was a way to test the loyalty of subjects.Those who did not curse ALi for whatever reason remained suspect and could not be fully trusted] and it was not just shias [or supporters of Ali ] who opposed cursing of Ali
even the neutrals like sa’ b abiwaqqas and saeed b zayd.

at any rate cursing was only one of the many Bidah introduced by muawiyah by which he succeeded in turning the islamic meritocracy of Umar b khattab to a imperialistic arab kingship.Anyone who sincerely believes in pious caliphate can never truely admire muawiyah [unless its just to piss off the shias] as he and marwan dealt it the death blows from which it never recovered.

even muhammad b qasim i dont like personally , he had a disciple of abdullah b abbas a great tabi’i flogged 400 times for no reason.
but there were many good people amongst banu ummayyah no doubt some early muhajireen like abu hudhayfa, khalid b saeed etc

Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

i am very impressed with the attitude of both code_red and ravage i hope more people think like them and "call a spade a spade" as codie wrote

Good points.

SIRAF YAHI EK KASAR BAKI TY:

No doubt that Shaitan can take over any one who pray to him:

Ali spent his all time in supervision of Prophet Mohammad(pbuh), he have adopted Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) character and knowledge, According to Israr Ahmed , if he cant drink Alcohol then it reflects Mohammad(pbuh) teaching…

MAY ALLAH CURSE ALL THOSE WHO HATE PROPHET (pbuh) AND HIS FAMILY.

AMEEN

QUESTION FROM ALL BROTHER AND SISTERS:

Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) is City of knowledge and Ali(as) is gate of Knowledge…

If a person know about its harmness , then how can he practice it.???

Imam Ali ibna abi Talib said:
If a drop of liquor falls into a well and a minar is built on ots nearby land I will not recite azan from it; and if it falls into a river and in its dry bed grows grass, I will not let my horse graze on ot."

Liquor in ummul khaba-ith, the mother of all vices. An intoxicated person ceases to be a human being, becomes a brute and loses the ability to distinguish between good and evil, right and wrong.

History shows that in all Muslim Matter Imam Ali(as) Helped via his judgement and knowledge.

Since alcohol is injurious to reason and diminishes a man’s intelligence, moral sense, logical powers and spiritual sensitiveness, any drop of it is strictly forbidden to any Muslim.

His knowledge describes that he never consumed alcohol as Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) never Did..

It is only DUSHMANANE-e- AHLE BAITE who try to degrace this holy family..

Could you please give me some ref: about other sahaba, which you know that they are neglected in our history or missing in our books.

First of All you need to know about that "WHAT IS COMPANION"?

Then travel with meaning, then you will realize that , There are only few true companion who loved ALLAH, HIS APOSTLE AND THOSE WHO ARE GUIDED.

Companion is not enough validity to praise him with clear information.

ALL Sunni Schollars know that,, CURSE TREE(MUAYWA AND YAZEED AND SOO ON" was openly cursing Ali(as) ...(for information read: Trimizi)

Where QURAN CLEARLY SHOW THAT: Prophet (pbuh) and His holy family are clean and purified).

HOW COME YOU PRAISE DAMME PEOPLE WHO STONED KAABA, KILLED PROPHET GRANDSON.

Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

Dr isrars reply.

http://www.tanzeem.org/broadcast/pressreleases/2008/June182008/default.asp

Even if his references were correct he should not have made this opinion in public.

THATS WHY WHY SAYS THAT : There are people , who are known as companion , in Ahle Sunnat, who alway spoke against ALEHE MOHAMMAD(as). form time of Mauwya till now:…We regret all those companions who speak against MOhammad(pbuh) and his Holy Family(Blessed ones)

Companion is one who
1-accepted islam in time of Prophet
2-Met the Prophet
3-Died as muslim

Nowhere i said that everyone who meets this criteria is beyond reproach

I am not talking about ALL 12er books , many of which are by scholars of great repute
But there are many hadith of 12ers which are contrary to the most commonly accepted histories of the time
and the popular "shia" culture of matam azadari etc which totally neglects the sahaba in general.These majalis are the main source of education of masses amongst 12ers and they project a very negative image of sahaba/tabaeen who are non-banu hashim
At any rate azadari is now mostly about getting togather shedding a few tears and eating halwa , qorma , sheermal .....is this what hussain b Ali die for ?
kuch sharam karo ..read the fourth prayer of sahiffah-e-kamila by Ali b hussain its about the sahaba

Das, u pretend to know it all, dont u? And thanks for referencing Sahifa e Kamila. Indeed, supplication # 4 is for the great sahabas. But pay close attention to who Imam Sajjad (as) described as a sahabi. And stop being selective when reading a matter.

And btw Azadari is for Imam Hussein (as), his family (i.e. Prophet's family) and his companions (included Prophet's companions). And if you wish the shias to sing praise for sahabas like Muawiya and Abu Sufyan. Then sorry, its too wishful to expect that.

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And btw Azadari is for Imam Hussein (as), his family (i.e. Prophet's family) and his companions (included Prophet's companions).

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that might be the original purpose of it but now it has only 2 main purposes
1-provide income for the large number of "ulema"
2-social gathering of 12er communities where there lots of food/ small talk but hardly any worship. Pop songs have become "nohas" and "matam" has become synchronized dancing.
Much as I hate these practices of the 12ers today, my hatred for the nawasib is even more.But hating them does not mean I try to justify all the clownsish things you guys do today in the name of "mohabat-e-ahlulbayt"
I have already mentioned the 1 companion who is remembered and Hurr is not a sahabi but tabi'i ]

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And if you wish the shias to sing praise for sahabas like Muawiya and Abu Sufyan. Then sorry, its too wishful to expect that.
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first pre-requsite for any debate is to atleast listen/read the arguments of ur opponent if u look carefully ...i have only criticized muawiyah & co even uthman] in my posts NEVER praised them or even tried to justify their crimes.
But your attitude is typical of 12ers these days anyone who criticizes them is automatically a supporter of yazid etc a convenient way to deflect criticism.

Maybe they had better things to do then watch 2 hours of borefest of a lecture by mr. santa clause the third?

I do not know which shia gatherings you have been attending. They sound like real dodgy ones. Try and find a proper one next time or if u r unable to then let me know your location on the globe and i shall be happy to oblige to direct you to a right 1 Insha Allah.

It is quite easy to sit on your back and criticize or disect any given group or sects' beliefs as no such large group of people (200 million plus in this case!) is perfect in its entirety and i am sure u know it well, but u choose to exploit few of the weaknesses you have seen/observed in a selected/limited bunch of weak people and create confusion and diversion.

I would like to request you to explain us your believess and perhaps recommend a better "non clownish" way to celebrate "mohabbat-e-AhlulBayt (as)" (that is if u r a believer :))

And btw thanks for mentioning the rules of debate. I leave that for the readers to decide as to who really is trying to answer the questions and who is playing the "divert or i-know-it-all games"

As a reader, I think Das Reich has been very objective.

Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

^ i agree. stock answers dont always work nussairee, sometimes you gotta make an effort at a decent answer, or not attempt it.

Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

There has been always one problem ! .... I dunt care if i offend anyone, coz if someone can talk like this Abt Imam Ali a.s then limits r over.
The problem is that first three caliphs were convereted in older age they commited sins ... Thats y alot of sunni's, wahabi's claim these kind of thing
i.e Prophet s.a.w was like us
Imam Ali and Alcohal.

I dunt blame you guys ... ur first three caliphs were smart enough to predict this will become an issue later that y did abu bakar became caliph and Not Ali a.s So they made there own stories just to make people think that if they were sinners than So was Imam Ali a.s
Lanat on those who make up these stories and lanat on those who believe in them.
When Quran Talks Abt certian people who r paaak .... 33:33

"And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless"

Then atleast give this honor to someone If not Imam Ali that the person is among ahleybait who r paak and never commited sins !

Brother even if you call a spade a spade the Fundos on both sides will remain stuck where they are.

Secondly, this is something that i always try not to say, but, at times i think that many history and Hadith books that at present are bydefault considered true now have some very objectionable material that does not comply with life of Prophet saw, Khulafaurrashideen and Sahaba. Yet somehow at times people and some ulema continue to repeat the stories without looking into what it means.

I have read and heard far more worse stories than this one.

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Clearly someone who has spent time with shias. That is indeed the mindset, especially if they know you're a sunni interested in shia beliefs they will try to overwhelm your senses with Ali's praises.

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The problem lies in the collective psyche of the two sects. The stroies help to shape up the psyche.

The Sunnies almost never discuss the fights that happened between Sahaba, they tell the stories of wars with non-beleivers etc. On the other hand the shias always tell of the virtues of Ali ra and the hardships of Ahle-bayt. Hence an overzelous shia will always find his displeasure with sunnis or anyone who praises Sahaba.