Ali and Praying under the influence

Society Religion & Philosophy
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This little video clip is making the email rounds. If Zakir Naik praising Yazid was bad, this is likely to be more sensational. Apparently QTV has already dropped Israr Ahmeds programmes.

Based on this clip would it be fair to say that the fourth caliph should never have been leading the Muslims anyway, regardless of the divisions his rule atleast broadened?

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Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

the video does not seem to be complete.. it cuts right after what he said about Hazrat ALi..

it's missing the context..

I remember Qadiyaani's posting about Khatam-e-Nubuwwat clip of under 2 minutes from his lecture and when I posted the whole 2 hour audio, no one dared to answer it..

Do you have the FULL lecture available so we can see what he was about to say after the first LINE which is being the title of discussion?

PLUS, he was about to tell an incident before the ayah against Khamr was revealed so anything done before that revealation can not be considered anyway...

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Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

it is after it was revealed that dont go close to namaz after drinking. obviously jin ki ghutti mai sharaab thi couldnt resist it.

i dont have the full lecture, this clip only. i dont believe though that any context is missed, since the only thing of relevance is the narrated incident with Ali and the drunk namaz, and the orders preceding that on not praying drunk and the hint saying sin outweighs the benefits (which nobler personalities took to heart unlike ghutti mai sharab walay).

one possible reason why nobody responds to a 2 hour audio though is that not many people really want to spend two hours listening to a lecture just to respond to a post. It would be better if you listened to it, made a counter argument based on it, and just referenced the 2 hour clip. This is a pre-emptive indication that I will definitely not listen to a 2 hour clip of Israr sahab for this thread!

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Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

I had explained the context along with the clip.. :)

sub kee bolti band thee

anyway, this is not about that clip..

i still see that the video is edited ... one sentence mean ZILCH! and whoever spreaded this video did it with biased intentions... nothing more!

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Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

so you dispute the intentions but not what he said? i have no problems agreeing that however spread this video is probably biased against Israr. Im not really interested in tarring anyone, or discussing Israr sahab personally.

I want to discuss what is being said, which is clear enough and mostly unedited except the final 2 seconds

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Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

Whoever bad mouth against Syedana Ali :razi:, I would never associate with that person for sure.. but I am not convinced that the video is complete… the sentence is missing it’s following supporting sentences… hence, if you wanna beat your own trumpet, you are welcome… let other give their opinion on this…

I am out.. peace.!

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Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

Im guessing the clip would've been complete had he stopped it at "aabudu maa tabudun" instead of appending whatever he says in the last three seconds which, as you say, is meaningless and edited out of place.

so for those watching, please ignore the last 3 seconds of the clip, since they dont seem to have anything to do with the topic discussed here.

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Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

This lecture seems to be about the prohibition of intoxicants.

I think the discord would be the differnece of opinion among shia and sunni that Hazrat Ali (ra) can make a mistake (sunni) and Hazrat Ali (ra) can not make the mistake (shia)

There is very simple sollution. Reject/dispute the incident’s authenticity :k:

For sunni;s there is no bane in accepting as it is, because Sahaba’s are prone to mistakes and their behaviour was but natural.

I dont think Dr. Israr had any delibrate mal intention in quoting the incident. It was purely acadamic.

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Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

thats more like it.

i have no interest in discussing israr or launching some kind of anti israr movement like the email goes. but (certain?) sunnies seem to have a very negative view of Hazrat Ali. this incident isnt simply a mistake, it is a mistake of leadership going against a direct instruction of the Prophet, after drinking while ignoring politer suggestions by the Prophet.

not to mention saying "o you kafirs, i believe what you believe" is laying it on a little thick.

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Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

A mistake is a mistake is a mistake !

If we look at it objectively, it is nothing more than a human error.

[quote]

this incident isnt simply a mistake, it is a mistake of leadership going against a direct instruction of the Prophet, after drinking while ignoring politer suggestions by the Prophet.

[/quote]

According to chronology of events and gradual intensity of directives, this can not be considered a fualt of leadership. All the sahaba had liquor as it was not prohibbited till that time. Even it was not prohibbited after the incident. Muslims were asked to stay away from prayer (salat) when they are under its influence.

I dont think it is anything serious. Sahaba' had committed much grave offenses like murder, by mistake or wrong judgment.

[quote]

but (certain?) sunnies seem to have a very negative view of Hazrat Ali

[/quote]

This is quite interesting statement. I have a desire to come across such a people or group of peopl who hold such views. and listen to their view and reasons. So far no luck.

Btw, I am talking about those people who genuinely have grudge against Hazrat Ali (ra). Not including those history buffs who criticise his politics and decisions due to thier overall impact.

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Not based on that event because there is no relevence IMO. But the question it self is an important one.

I believe Hazrat Ali(ra) capabilities were wasted / least utilised during his tenure. Due to his inherited turmoil and wide spectrum of bad politics around him.

But on the other hand If we want to see half glass full, then I think it was Allah's planning to save him for that time so that a person of high caliber , character and wisdom could sail through muslim ummah from utter chaos and dis-harmony.

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Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

^the battles that Ali [as] fought in his tenure were already all predicted and his position authenticated by the ahadith of the Prophet.It was not a matter of politics alone but politics which had profound religious implications, otherwise there are no need for the Prophet[saw] to make predictions about them.
Furthermore when it comes to fighting rebels within muslims Ali is the first authority in islam after Quran.
His leadership is questioned many times as people are misled and are told half-truths about islamic history which makes Ali look either like a bungling fool or a infallible imam against whom the whole ummah united for the sole purpose of preventing his imamate becoming a reality.

for this incident its time and whether wine was fully prohibited at that time or not will be the things to determine.
But Israr is not some great Authority on islamic history as some like to think , I saw one of his lectures on the civil war and couldnt even identify proporly who were the sahaba and who were not.

13

its hard to find them as these people pose as mainstream sunnis but in reality are the nawasib
personally I had the chance of seeing one of them call Ali the "na khalaq baita" of aisha , as he "waged war against her"
they in the past had cursed Ali openly , but now when mainstream sunnis after Imam ibn hanbal accepted Ali as the fourth pious caliph their position was exposed so outwardly they put "radiallahanhu" next to his name but in reality belittle his high merits and extol and glorify his enemies.To this day they exist amongst us .....

Khatti's Kitchen Korner
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Re: Ali and Praying under the influence

^ after imam ahmed bin hanbal????
imam ahmed bin hanbal is the last of the four great imams, u mean to say that before him the other imams did not consider Ali (ra) to be one of the khulafa-e-rashideen????

15

hmmm

I understand that cursing Ali was a practice started by Ameer Muawiya and ended by Hazrat Umar Bin Abdul Aziz (r). So this evil practice lasted for few decades. Is there any historical record that anyone re-started this practice in Islamic history ?

If not then ^ this is an isolated case based on personal grudge and political enimity. Niether Sunni's nor the 4 imams have anything to do with it.

You suggestion that people 'pose' them selves.

I wonder what is their source of inspiration for such a belief... becasue unlike shia literature, there is no 'hate-material' in sunni literature As far as i know. Regarding hazrat Ali (ra) there are only ahadees about his merits and virtues and all the positive aspects.

It is True, that The political life is disputed. but it is unanamously agreed upon among scholars that he was 4th Kalif, a legit Ameer ul momineen.

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What does that mean ?

If the ummah was against him then what about thoe people who were with him ?

I need not to say anything as Hazrat Ali has said a lot about these people himself :chai:

I believe there were lots of bad people on both sides, alongwith faithful muslims. Which casued great deal of misfortune to islam

17

Dear Brother: Thankyou very much to post the statement:

The Messenger of Allah said:

"Loving Ali is the sign of belief, and hating Ali is the sign of
hypocrasy."

Sunni references:
- Sahih Muslim, v1, p48;
- Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643;
- Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p142;
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v1, pp 84,95,128
- Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202
- Hilyatul Awliya', by Abu Nu'aym, v4, p185
- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v14, p462

This tradition of Prophet was popular to the extent that some of the
companions used to say:

"We recognized the hypocrites by their hatred of Ali."

Sunni references:
- Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p639, Tradition #1086
- al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, p47
- al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v3, p242
- Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p91

Also Muslim in his Sahih narrated on the authority of Zirr that:

Ali (RA) said: By him who split up the seed and created something
living, the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) gave me a
promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a
hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.

  • Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter XXXIV, p46, Tradition #141

Abu Huraira narrated:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) looked toward Ali, al-Hasan, al-Husain, and
Fatimah, and said: "I am in the state of war with those who will fight
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
you, and in the state of peace with those who are peaceful to you."
^^^

Sunni references:
(1) Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p699
(2) Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p52
(3) Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p767, Tradition #1350
(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p149
(5) Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p169
(6) al-Kabir, by Tabarani, v3, p30, also in al-Awsat
(7) Jamius Saghir, by al-Ibani, v2, p17
(8) Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v7, p137
(9) Sawai'q al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p221
(10) Talkhis, by al-Dhahabi, v3, p149
(11) Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p25
(12) Mishkat al-Masabih, by Khatib al-Tabrizi, English Version, Tdadition #6145
(13) Others such as Ibn Habban, etc.

It is the well-known fact in the history that Muawiyah fought Imam Ali
(AS). And based on the above tradition of the Prophet(PBUH&HF) the
Prophet has declared war on Muawiyah. How can we still love a person whom
the Prophet has declared war on him?

The Messenger of Allah said:

"Whoever hurts Ali, has hurt me"

Sunni references:
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, p483
- Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, p580, Tradition #981
- Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p129
- al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p263
- Ibn Habban, Ibn Abd al-Barr, etc.

The Messenger of Allah said:

"Whoever reviles/curses Ali, has reviled/cursed me"

Sunni reference:
- al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p121, who mentioned this tradition is
Authentic.
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v6, p323
- Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, p594, Tradition #1011
- Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p130
- Mishkat al-Masabih, English version, Tradition #6092
- Tarikh al-Khulafa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p173
- and many others such as Tabarani, Abu Ya'la, etc.

===============================================

Muawiyah Instituting the curse of Imam Ali (AS)

Muawiyah not only fought Imam Ali, he cursed Imam Ali as well. Furthermore,
he did force/make everybody to curse Ali (AS). To prove it, we begin with
Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas:

Muawiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, give order to Sa'd, and told him:
"What prevents you that you are refraining from cursing Abu Turab
(nickname of Ali)?" Sa'd replied: "Don't you remember that the Prophet
said three things about (the virtue of) Ali? So I will never curse
Ali."

STILL YOU PEOPLE LOVE MUAWIYA.........AND GIVE HIM REGARDS (R.A)

JAISE USNE KOY NEEK KAM KIA HO.....

There is Verse IN HOLY QURAN for People Like YOU:

18:57 Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never ever be guided.

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indeed , the other imams abu hanifa, shafai etc did hold Ali in very high regard but could not publicly support him as that meant imprisonment and as ahle sunnah was the official faith of the empire that meant Ali could not be included amongst the pious caliphs as it was not approved by the govt.At thattime anyone having sympathies for ALi was called a "rafidha" much the same way present day pious muslims are called extremists.having said that extremists shia sects did start forming after the revolt of amir mukhtar.
abu hanifa did go to prison for supporting zayd b ali and nafs azakiyah 2 descendents of ALi against ummayyads and abbassids
after death of umar b abdul aziz the practice of cursing ALi was restarted.
it was banned again under mamun the abbassid caliph

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i was alluding to the majority of the present day 12er sect who have carefully edited the beliefs of the earlier ghali sects of shias so that they can be compatible with rest of the community.
Whenever u mention merits of other sahaba in front of them their only response is " but but what about ALi ?" irony is that includes even those sahaba who were friendly to ALi.For them the mere mention of sahaba is unbearable.
Thankfully neither Ali his sons nor his supporters were so insecure as these people.So these people did not exist back then.

20

yes there is no hate material in classical ahle suunah texts as most imams of ahle sunnah were from schools of iraq , medina pupils of Tabaeen and Sahaba who held Ali in high regard like zayd b arqam,amir b wathila, saeed b jubair , hasan basri etc.

first one to cast doubts about the righteous stance of ALi in the civil war was ibn taymiyah and his syrian school. They relied on lot of fabricated traditions which lower the status of Ali and exaggerates the merits of this syrian enemies specifically muawiyah thats why mostscholars agree that not a single merit of muawiyah is considered authentic .But this belief did not die with muawiyah as late as Imam Nasai there were Nawasibs in syria and that why he wrote a book specifically on merits of ALi.Modern writers taking clues from orientalists have gone one step further like Mahmood Ahmed Abbasi accusing ALi and his supporters of killing uthman and usurping caliphate

the present day shia sunni positions were formulated a hundred or so yrs after the actual events of the civil wars.Before the 4 imams there was also ahle sunnah and shia and their beliefs were somewhat different regarding historical personalities

let me ask u guys this ....we all know hajjaj b yusuf killed abdullah b zubair [a sahabi] and crucified his corpse. Yet hajjaj was considered a leader of muslims back then, and religious authorities despite their dislike for him gave him homage now how can this be compatible with the present belief of ahle sunnah ?
Now if u say that all kings who cursed Ali starting from muawiyah were not ahle sunnah but nawasib than I agree with you that ahle sunnah has always honored Ali. But the fact is that following the state authority has been a requirement by consensus of most scholars.