i was alluding to the majority of the present day 12er sect who have carefully edited the beliefs of the earlier ghali sects of shias so that they can be compatible with rest of the community.
Whenever u mention merits of other sahaba in front of them their only response is " but but what about ALi ?" irony is that includes even those sahaba who were friendly to ALi.For them the mere mention of sahaba is unbearable.
Thankfully neither Ali his sons nor his supporters were so insecure as these people.So these people did not exist back then.
Thats quite ridiculous. There're plenty of sahabas who are highly praised and respected. There is no issue with that. however compared to imam ali, no other sahabi was on par. Its like comparing a mountain to a hill...but nevertheless...it doesnt take anything away from them in the least...and i think the insecurities you percieve lie more at your end of the spectrum where anything about Ali(as) in comparison, is not digested all too well.
The video is taken out of context as AQ said. Dr. Israr was not condemning Hazrat Ali, he was giving the reason of the revelation of that Ayat (dont go near namaz when you are intoxicated)
This aya was revealed cause of that incident
in Trmidhi, Hazrat Ali himself is one of the Ravi of this hadees
If you are willing to read** (in green)**
Ayat
O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated (sukara) UNTIL YOU KNOW (WELL) WHAT YOU SAY, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath -- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving. S. 4:43 Shakir Causes of Its Revelation
Ibn Abi Hatim has recorded some reports about the incident of its revelation: Sad said, "Four *Ayat* were revealed concerning me. A man from the Ansar once made some food and invited some Muhajirin and Ansar men to it, and we ate and drank until we became intoxicated. We then boasted about our status. Then a man held a camel's bone and injured Sad's nose, which was scarred ever since. This occurred before Al-Khamr was prohibited, and Allah later revealed… (O you who believe! Approach not As-Salat (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state). Muslim recorded this Hadith, and the collectors of the Sunan recorded it, with the exception of Ibn Majah. Another Reason Ibn Abi Hatim narrated that Ali bin Abi Talib said, "Abdur-Rahman binAwf made some food to which he invited us and served some alcohol to drink. When we became intoxicated, and the time for prayer came, they asked someone to lead us in prayer. He recited `Say, "O disbelievers! I do not worship that which you worship, but we worship that which you worship [refer to the correct wording of the Surah: 109]."’ Allah then revealed… (O you who believe! Do not approach Salah when you are in a drunken state until you know what you are saying). " This is the narration collected by Ibn Abi Hatim and At-Tirmidhi, who said "HasanGharib] Sahih." Allah's statement… (until you know what you are saying) is the best description for when one is intoxicated, that is, when he does not know the meaning of what he is saying. When a person is drunk, he makes obvious mistakes in the recitation and will not be able to be humble during the prayer. Imam Ahmad recorded that Anas said that the Messenger of Allah said… (If one feels sleepy while he is praying, let him sleep for a while so that he knows the meaning of what he is saying.) This was also recorded by Al-Bukhari and An-Nasa'i. In some of the narrations of this Hadith, the Messenger said… (…For he might want to ask for forgiveness, but instead curses himself!)…
^ I dont think anyone disputed that the hadith exists in Tirmizi TLK. Although that does make clear something I misunderstood from the clip: that this wasnt a violation of direct instruction, but a cause of it being revealed.
That said someone who isnt one of the many who gave up wine upon politer suggestions by the Prophet and gets so intoxicated as to proclaim he believes what the Kafirs believe certainly doesnt seem very leader-like, especially at a time when we believe the people around the Propeht were the best people ever.
I advice all the good Muslims here to read Quran and see for themselves if anyone even comes half close to Imam Ali (a.s.) in the praise and merits awarded by Allah (s.w.t.)
We could all argue until the day of judgement but be it Dr Israr Ahmed, Muawiya, Bukhari, or Abu Hanifa; none of them are hujjat on us but the word of God, i.e. the holy Quran.
Thats quite ridiculous. There're plenty of sahabas who are highly praised and respected. There is no issue with that. however compared to imam ali, no other sahabi was on par. Its like comparing a mountain to a hill...but nevertheless...it doesnt take anything away from them in the least...and i think the insecurities you percieve lie more at your end of the spectrum where anything about Ali(as) in comparison, is not digested all too well.
If you could only see my signature you can tell what my views on Ali are ...
It is really sad that even after explaining my standpoint so explicitly you cannot distinguish slander from objective criticism.
.....but 12ers are afflicted like all minorities by this kind of siege mentality
For them the mere mention of sahaba is unbearable.
Thankfully neither Ali his sons nor his supporters were so insecure as these people.So these people did not exist back then.
I dont know which group of "insecure" twelvers you have been around Mr Das! Your obervation, atleast in this matter, is absurd.
I cant figure why has there been a misconception about Sunnis that they have any sort of disregard or anything for Hadrat Ali RAA. Its simply that we believe each and every thing said and done by Hadrat Mohammad Sal Allah o Aleh Wa Aalehe Wasalam i.e. Ahadith. And yes the love, affection and attachment Our Prophet Sal Allah o Aleh Wa Aalehe Wasalam had for Hadrat Ali RAA is quite explicit in the Ahadith. But so, more or less Our Prophet Sal Allah O Aleh Wa Aalehe Wasalam had for other companions too. We all should pay our due reverences to all of them, in a positive manner and undiscriminately. I take it as offensive to judge people, let As'haba Karaam alone, for their status. Let it be for our Creator to decide. Atleast I'd want to save my soul of the embarrassment one may have to face on the day of Judgement if our presumptions and assumptions were wrong.
First of all the video clip has been posted out of context. Dr. Israr says specifically "is ke pass" which implies as bro TLK suggested that the reason for the ayat to be revealed was because of such and such.
The question to ask however, is not whether Sayyiduna Ali (RA) was too drunk to recite or not, but to ask whether he used to drink at all. What is your belief regarding the consumption of alcohol by the Ahl-al-Bait before the instruction of it's prohibition? Then how does it fit with your understanding of infallibility of certain persons? (May blessings of Allah (SWT) be on them all).
If you claim that despite being drunk Ali (RA) would not have made such a critical error in recitation then are you suggesting that alcohol cannot hinder members of Ahl-al-Bait and if so then why was it made haram for everyone including Ahl-Al-Bait (May Allah (SWT) be pleased with all of them)?
I dont know which group of "insecure" twelvers you have been around Mr Das! Your obervation, atleast in this matter, is absurd.
er...lets just say 99 % of them only twelver scholar I can say who I sincerely think is well versed merits of sahaba i met was SHM Jafri the author of the book "origins and development"
er...lets just say 99 % of them only twelver scholar I can say who I sincerely think is well versed merits of sahaba i met was SHM Jafri the author of the book "origins and development"
Well, if for you sahabs are the likes of Marwan bin Hakam, Muawiya, Khalid Bin Waleed, Yazeed, Amr Ibn Aas, Abu Sufyan etc then i have no further comments to make.
If you talking of sahabas who loved Allah (swt), Prophet (pbuh) and Islam, then i challenge you to find anything remotely derogatory about them in either a Shia text or shia gathering etc. Infact one will find much more comprehensive and detailed works by Shia scholars on the sahabas like Abu Dharr, Abu Ayub Ansari, Salman Farsi, Bilal ibn Ribah, Abd Allah ibn Abbas, Ammar Yasir, Hamza Ibn Abdul Muttalib, Miqdad ibn al-Aswad al-Kindi, Ibn Abbas, Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari etc.
Shias love great sahabas and love to sing praise for them as they thoroughly deserve it.
However i find it fascinating to see the sunni side on one side claiming great love for the sahabas yet no condemnation for Uthman as under his rule Abu Dharr died of the lingering effects of beatings he received at the hands of Uthman's soldiers. Muawiya, Ayesha, Talha, Marwan for fighting baatil battles resulting in great fitnah and killing of hundereds and thousands. Yazid for stoning the kaaba etc. The tale of cruelities is long.
If you could only see my signature you can tell what my views on Ali are ...
It is really sad that even after explaining my standpoint so explicitly you cannot distinguish slander from objective criticism.
.....but 12ers are afflicted like all minorities by this kind of siege mentality
i know what your views on Ali (as) are, and it was 'you' in general, however, that doesnt mean your views on shias regarding sahabas are correct...or objective.
MaMooli
I lost my temper because 2 muharrams I spent trying to appraise the 12er communities of 3 cities of N. America the qualities of sahaba [even the ones they consider good and even the ones who died in prophet's time] but was met with indifference and disapproval of the "resident alim" e.g if i spoke of bravery of musab b umair ,knowledge of Muadh b jabal or love of Khuzaiymah for the Prophet , it was quickly followed by the Alim/or some other dude clarifying that Ali was far superior in all these qualities.Obviously who would deny this claim ...even every reasonable sunni would agree.But why does that have to emphasized at this point ? do the qualities of Ali diminish in any way if other sahaba are praised ?
I know that certain sahaba in 12er rijal books have been highly praised but that is hardly common knowledge amongst general 12er [even the knowledagable ones]. Furthermore there is a deafing silence on the sacrfices of sahaba for islam.Even from a shia perspective e.g there is no majlis on deaths of abu dharr and ammar , even though every 12er who dies get a "majalis" to his name.The only 'sahaba who seem to be remembered are habib b mazahir and hurr b yazid that too because there have to be 10 majalis before ashura.It seems to me that just as the nawasib of today who claim to love Ali but neglect him so much to erase him from the popular memory of muslims the 12ers try to do the same to the other sahaba.make them look so insignificant as if their contribution to islam was negligible
Also I have yet to find one general view of 12er scholars regarding sahaba
some like kashahi highly regard as many as 12, kulyani only thinks 3 or 4 were good. some later scholars like jafar subhani say as many as 40 were good ones.
For me Hajaj bin yousef was a butcher, an evil ruler and wrath of Allah on muslims. Discussed him and his ‘innovation’ some years ago here
Now Sunni have a policy of not cursing anyone from Islamic history. Which is excellent policy in principle :k:. because there is chances of error. But this policy had its side effects that scholars and common muslim refrain from criticising historical figures of early days of Islam. Thus they hardly form any negative opinion about anyone. This is partly ok but the dark side is that they dont allow anyone to investigate their negative traits and try to hide them. Which is wrong IMO.
We should call a spade a spade. If Amir Muawiya started that evil practice then he did a terrible thing. There is no excuse that he was a sahabi. Ummeyed rulers were generally bad ruler except few commanders ( Ammad-uddin Muhammad aka Muhammad bin Qasim , Tariq bin zayad etc )
and ofcourse Hazrat Umar bin abdul Aziz (May Allah be pleased with him )
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