Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

USResident · January 4, 2008, 5:12pm

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

PCG I think you are acting just as biased to your mindset as you are claiming this couple to be. Your points are valid however they are not addressing the question about higher morality being asked by some people in this thread such this couple, Hypo or me. A society should be built upon a certain character which does not lead to the issues we are plagued with today, ones in which, a society degrades and rejects women who have been raped and children born from it. Its the fear and apprehension of society’s rejection and maltreatment that has driven the popularity of solutions such abortions or pills etc. If we were willing to change our perception of such people or children and provide them with moral and economic support then they would not be as much ashamed, embarassed and traumatized as they do today. Given that we live in a society where this is not happening people who are not strong enough to endure such a misfortune probably would opt for such solutions i.e. abortion and pills. However I hope you admit that it is our duty as muslims to do what we can to reform the character of our society so such incidents do not become a stigma for the victims.

A society where a victim is recognized and not mistreated or downcaste will see rape used as a weapon for destroying ones life on the decline. That would leave it with those incidents where it happens due to eccentricity or sexual desire for which the harsh punishments act as the deterance. Till we get there perhaps many people have little choice but to subdue themselves into such solutions apprehending public opinion.

hareem01 · January 4, 2008, 5:13pm

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

PyariCgudia:

Again, same problem. You two, husband and wife, keep emphasizing the wrong things. There is a solution to the problem. These verses come to be applied when you miss the window of the first 40 days post-conception, quite a stretch of time after an incidence of rape.

I urge you to stop misleading people by trying to make it seem that under no circumstance should a woman try to pursue interventional methods to stop the development of the embryo post-conception.

Most people don't understand the difference between a fetus and an embryo, so its best not to confuse people. You can usually abort an embryo. You cannot abort a fetus. But you people are not making this distinction clear.

IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN RAPED: Urge them to immediately go to a hospital and ask for a morning-after pill. I would even urge women to have a few at home, if its legal in their countries to get their hands on one (ask the doctor to write you a preventative perscription). If an incident takes place, take one immediately, and then go to the emergency room.

Are you blind PCG?

hareem01 · January 4, 2008, 5:19pm

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

PyariCgudia:

You don't like one extreme, which is fair enough. So perhaps it should read "may have the option to abort". If I get raped and I actually want to keep the baby, then why not? But why make an issue over a minority of cases? Most women and little girls would be horrified with keeping the child. Again, if it ever happens in your case, please do share with us how you decided to handle it.

But as of yet, in this 6 page thread, I have YET to see you even encourage the viable option available to nearly most women in the world. Morning after pill. I will be content if you post a strong post urging women to not delay and take the pill immediately if such a circumstance were to happen.

Your husband, at least, has had the conscience tameez to acknowledge in one of his posts that its the right way to go, even though he, just like you is spending more time arguing about what you'd do post-40 days. You will mislead women and men perusing through this thread, who will walk away thinking : Under no circumstance can I stop the cellular division of this baby. They will walk away not realizing there is a stage where you can abort the "child", because it is not really a "child" yet.

I can't do that, ......you're already doing it.

PyariCgudia · January 4, 2008, 5:25pm

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

USResident:

PCG I think you are acting just as biased to your mindset as you are claiming this couple to be. Your points are valid however they are not addressing the question about higher morality being asked by some people in this thread such this couple, Hypo or me. A society should be built upon a certain character which does not lead to the issues we are plagued with today, ones in which, a society degrades and rejects women who have been raped and children born from it. Its the fear and apprehension of society’s rejection and maltreatment that has driven the popularity of solutions such abortions or pills etc. If we were willing to change our perception of such people or children and provide them with moral and economic support then they would not be as much ashamed, embarassed and traumatized as they do today. Given that we live in a society where this is not happening people who are not strong enough to endure such a misfortune probably would opt for such solutions i.e. abortion and pills. However I hope you admit that it is our duty as muslims to do what we can to reform the character of our society so such incidents do not become a stigma for the victims.

A society where a victim is recognized and not mistreated or downcaste will see rape used as a weapon for destroying ones life on the decline. That would leave it with those incidents where it happens due to eccentricity or sexual desire for which the harsh punishments act as the deterance. Till we get there perhaps many people have little choice but to subdue themselves into such solutions apprehending public opinion.

I totally 100% agree with you. These animals just don’t think that is the case - they don’t treat women who were raped with respect. As of right now, given the mass resources we have in our American-Pakistani community, which is just a small portion of the muslim community in America, we do not have any Rape Resources in the area being run by muslims. No counseling for victims and families, no legal help (even though we have a number of muslim lawyers in the area), nearly no sermons on the issue in the mosques, no free/low cost medical help offered by muslim doctors, etc.

Part of it is ignorance of the issue - oh of course, it can’t possibly happen to me or anyone I know - it only happens to people walking in dark allies down a deserted black neighbordhood. Stereotypes like these are dangerous. Most rapes happen in situations where the criminal is someone that the victim knew - like a neighbor, a co-worker, a classmate, a family member. Most molestations, even, happen the same way. Its not some stranger that sees you and then his sexual electricity is turned on. Its usually someone you’ve been seeing on a regular basis.

What happens after the rape, to women who choose to give birth, is horrific. Most women, in Pakistan at least, drop the baby off at some yateem center. If its not reputable, the kid can go on to become a forced beggar, or get channeled into cheap child labor or sexual trafficking.

My point is merely, that with the invention of such a small pill, and the blessing that muslim clergy aren’t making an issue of it the way Christian clergy do in western countries, we should be at a better advantage now of tackling these issues. The very idea that this is not a close and shut case anymore with this pill’s existence tells me that people

a) still hold onto old beliefs that we should be obligated to keep the kid - therefore, they barely talk of the morning after pill → leads to point b

b) there is little awareness about the pill. i can bet you a million dollars that if you were to take a survey of the muslim population, you would find most people do not know about it. What happens? Most muslim rape victims keep the child even though they don’t want to → leading to all the problems you’ve described.

If we can work on promoting awareness of the pill, the number of these terrible stories would decrease. To assume women would not want to take the pill is pretty naive.

hareem01 · January 4, 2008, 5:28pm

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

May be because rapes are not so common in western muslim communities.

PyariCgudia · January 4, 2008, 5:31pm

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

PyariCgudia:

You don't like one extreme, which is fair enough. So perhaps it should read "may have the option to abort". If I get raped and I actually want to keep the baby, then why not? But why make an issue over a minority of cases? Most women and little girls would be horrified with keeping the child. Again, if it ever happens in your case, please do share with us how you decided to handle it.

But as of yet, in this 6 page thread, I have YET to see you even encourage the viable option available to nearly most women in the world. Morning after pill. I will be content if you post a strong post urging women to not delay and take the pill immediately if such a circumstance were to happen.

Your husband, at least, has had the conscience tameez to acknowledge in one of his posts that its the right way to go, even though he, just like you is spending more time arguing about what you'd do post-40 days. You will mislead women and men perusing through this thread, who will walk away thinking : Under no circumstance can I stop the cellular division of this baby. They will walk away not realizing there is a stage where you can abort the "child", because it is not really a "child" yet.

No, hareem, you're blind. See above.

PyariCgudia · January 4, 2008, 5:36pm

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

Again, assumptions. How do we know this? Do you know how many muslim women are now living in dorms or independent apartments to pursue their education? Do you know how many muslim women go to work in a car alone, and park it in a garage, where they may be at risk for assualt? Do you know how few muslim women take self-defense courses? Do you think muslim women are physically as fit as their western counterparts to physically fend off an attack? How many muslim women go to the gym regularly? How many muslim women live in family arrangements where they have uncles and cousins living with them, who could be possible perpetrators?

I'll give you an example, that might just horrify you. We had returned from Umrah and I was lying down on the bed, because of tremendous jet lag. I was in and out, so barely had an idea what was going on. I just remember opening my eyes and seeing my uncle bended OVER my body. He was reaching for something that was over my head, but the way my body was positioned on the bed, he could have easily walked over to the other angle of the bed and gotten what he needed. I knew he hadn't raped me, we had family walking all over the house dealing with their baggage. But there was NO need for him to bend over my body like that.

And this is no isolated incident. Things like this happen to muslim girls all the time, everywhere.

You are again, misleading people, my encouraging them to not take this matter seriously. I would say at least 50% of the crime is preventable, if women were educated more on these issues and took charge of them.

Your qoutations of the Quranic ayahs that do not allow for fetal abortions, post-40 days, does not focus on these things. Thankfully, the Quranic ayas do not limit us to the solution of "keeping it".

Monk · January 4, 2008, 5:45pm

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

one small note.(my not be very relevant)
In west not all the calls for rape/sexual harassment's are genuine.

I have see chick calling 911 on boys trying talking to them on streets. And police usually respond by NOT comming.
I have also seen girls trying to convince 9/11 operator for 40 mins. that people are harassing them.
I guess people in emergency services could sense where they need to go on priority basis.

psyah · January 4, 2008, 5:57pm

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

PyariCgudia:

Again, assumptions. How do we know this? Do you know how many muslim women are now living in dorms or independent apartments to pursue their education? Do you know how many muslim women go to work in a car alone, and park it in a garage, where they may be at risk for assualt? Do you know how few muslim women take self-defense courses? Do you think muslim women are physically as fit as their western counterparts to physically fend off an attack? How many muslim women go to the gym regularly? How many muslim women live in family arrangements where they have uncles and cousins living with them, who could be possible perpetrators?

I'll give you an example, that might just horrify you. We had returned from Umrah and I was lying down on the bed, because of tremendous jet lag. I was in and out, so barely had an idea what was going on. I just remember opening my eyes and seeing my uncle bended OVER my body. He was reaching for something that was over my head, but the way my body was positioned on the bed, he could have easily walked over to the other angle of the bed and gotten what he needed. I knew he hadn't raped me, we had family walking all over the house dealing with their baggage. But there was NO need for him to bend over my body like that.

And this is no isolated incident. Things like this happen to muslim girls all the time, everywhere.

You are again, misleading people, my encouraging them to not take this matter seriously. I would say at least 50% of the crime is preventable, if women were educated more on these issues and took charge of them.

Your qoutations of the Quranic ayahs that do not allow for fetal abortions, post-40 days, does not focus on these things. Thankfully, the Quranic ayas do not limit us to the solution of "keeping it".

Peace Sister PyariCgudia

May Allah (SWT) give your uncle guidance. It is true that above the things you have mentioned are a problem, but they remain a problem in every community. Hareem01 was merely suggesting why there may be no centres available. I personally like to believe that Hijabi sisters are less likely to be attacked, because that is the reason for Hijab as prescribed in Islam. It is a position that is based on the wisdom behind the requirement and a belief that Islam does not mandate something that is not beneficial to us in real life.

However, I also think some of the reasons we don't have such clinics is because a lot of expat Muslims are insular and not many are community orientated.

With regards to the morning-after pill and why it was not emphasised is because the subject at hand was abortion. Taking the morning after pill to drop the zygote after the gametes have fertilised is not Islamically considered abortion. Of course the best option is to take the pill. The reason why the conditions for abortion were being focussed on has another dimension.

First off it should be understood that the morning after pill (general use) is effective for up to 72 hours after unprotected sex. (Three days) Some special forms can be effective for up to a week after. So the window is not really 40 days. It is generally speaking 3 days. It means that it becomes quite possible for a rape victim to miss the window. Surgery could take a few days up to a few weeks to organise and they will not undertake surgery untill the foetus has been established to exist. Sometimes that may be too late Islamically speaking. Also even if the morning after pill is taken within the 3 day window there is a statistical 10% chance that it will not do its job. i.e. the embryo will continue to form and become a foetus, by the time the symptoms kick in it may be time again to think about the Islamic implication of abortion.

Again abortion should be discouraged, but not entirely forbidden in the case of rape induced pregnancies. However, the taking of the pill should be a matter of general practice soon after the incident. Some women will not speak out about it due to fear or shame for a few days too. These are realities so it is not out of place to talk about these issues even with the great invention of the pill.

Monk · January 4, 2008, 6:23pm

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

psyh. I agree with PCG to some extant. We do l,ike every other society, have that issue.
Its not only against women its also happens to girls and boys.

Kid who suffer through it immidiatly develop feeling of guilt so he/she is very un-likely to report the incident.
I have been thinking about this issue for a long time. I think we have to be little shameless in-front of our children, and address that issue.
Telling them there is a possibility some may touch the inappropriately.

So God forbid if that ever happen they could see it as a crime rather then developing a dirty/guilty feeling about it.
I would say we in Pakistan need to address this issue more then west.

Only exception I could make is Its better if schools teach that to kids rather then mother or father talking about it.

USResident · January 4, 2008, 9:56pm

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

I think the focus of Br. Psyah and Sr. PCG is on different things:

PCG is focused on educating muslim women about the options available to prevent a pregnancy from happening God forbid if they ever find themselves in a circumstance as unfortunate as the one being highlighted here.

PSYAH is focused on the options once the pregnancy reaches the point where a feutus is formed and the only option available is to abort the baby.

Is this correct?

hareem01 · January 5, 2008, 1:08am

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

Yes.

psyah · January 5, 2008, 8:53am

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

Peace USResident bro

Yes ... I am stressing something that has not been stressed enough. People are there to speak up for the rape victims, but few are there to speak on behalf of those unborn children. People know their rights regarding birth control and they know about the legalisation of the pill according to Islam, what I fear people are still unaware about is that society has itself a responsibility to deal with rape as a phenomenon and put in place things to prevent it occurring not necessarily to invent ways of sweeping the dust under the carpet or patching the immediate manifest problem. However, I have argued for these elements also.

PyariCgudia · January 6, 2008, 3:17am

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

Semi.

My argument is that the foremost emphasis should be on doing whatever you can to prevent that pregnancy from taking place, hence you don't need to even worry about what psyah is worrying about.

The fact that the MAJORITY of this thread has been spent discussing what you'd do AFTER the 40 day period is over, shows that we haven't done enough on pregnancy prevention post-rape! It shows that we have a solution, and we're not really using it. And it also shows that we're not opening to moving our society in this new direction - we're still so interested in our abortion / anti-abortion arguments, the use for which have been nearly nullifed with the invention of this one friggin pill.

Goes to show you. You can come up with nearly every solution in the book to their problems, and they will still stick to their old ways.

Its the difference between being rigid-minded vs. liberal-minded. And in the end, that's always what it boils down to.

PyariCgudia · January 6, 2008, 3:25am

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

knockout_artist:

psyh. I agree with PCG to some extant. We do l,ike every other society, have that issue. Its not only against women its also happens to girls and boys.

Kid who suffer through it immidiatly develop feeling of guilt so he/she is very un-likely to report the incident. I have been thinking about this issue for a long time. I think we have to be little shameless in-front of our children, and address that issue. Telling them there is a possibility some may touch the inappropriately. So God forbid if that ever happen they could see it as a crime rather then developing a dirty/guilty feeling about it. I would say we in Pakistan need to address this issue more then west.

Only exception I could make is Its better if schools teach that to kids rather then mother or father talking about it.

Excellent points.

Psyah: You raise very good points as well. Touche on the point about the window. You're right, its not really a 40 day window as far as how the pill works, which makes it even more important for us to educate people to have a stock in their home or accessible immediately to them to take.

I understand that clinics are not available everywhere, especially in the muslim world.

But if we keep focusing on the solution of : Keep the child; we tend to ignore the other things we could be doing. Like building those clinics where its needed. I fail to see why, when the muslim community has the resources and manpower it has, that why in African muslim villages, it is bible thumpers putting up clinics rather than muslim outreach groups? Why? Because we really dont have many of them; those that we have are either poorly organized, or corrupt.

Building clinics, community education on topics of sexual violence and misbehavior (of all kinds, not just rape), community health education, community opening up to rape victims, community building resources for the victims, more efficient justice systems that punish rape victims severely, etc is all very important. We need to move away from this intense focus on whether or not we abort the baby. Its not the argument that's a problem. Its our OBSESSION with it. It distracts attention from other solutions that we could very well be pursuing.

And your point about the pill not working 10% of the time should really be sending up flags in peoples' minds. That means this pill solution works 90% of the time. This means that roughly, taking into consideration that not every woman is going to be in a smart mind to take the pill right away, you're looking at a 50-60% reduction in unwanted pregancies. 50-60% reduction in emotional turmoil, families being broken, unwanted babies being killed from shame or being dumped on some pervert's doorstep to exploit the child. That is a MASSIVE improvement.

Yes, your 10% of cases will still remain where we think - what to do with that child.

But that would mean, ideally, if our solutions are working right (i.e. we muslims are working right), then 10% of our time should be spent discussing this issue.

This thread - eh, I'd say, most of it was taken up with the abortion - to do, or not to do? argument.

Again, I ask you. What is this a sign of? I think it means we're not doing a good job in this area.

We're spending more time arguing over controversial questions than we are spending time finding a solution.

We're all such full of hot air. What are we doing for these girls?

massive · January 6, 2008, 3:28am

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

usualy when Al Azhar gives a fatwa it's always broadcasted on the T.V in egypt but nothings come on regarding this issue but inshallah im going to find out about this fatwa from dar ul ifta...and why was it given....

Bidd3h · January 6, 2008, 3:29am

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

Narrow minded vs Open minded.

massive · January 6, 2008, 3:40am

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

ok apparently this fatwa has'nt been 100% issued due to Mufti Ali Jumma refuting it and saying that Saeed Tantawi was wrong in giving this Ftwa but its still on hold.....

Naughty_by_Nature · January 6, 2008, 4:51am

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

I havent read all three sides...but yeah on what basis can they DEMAND that a a lady have an abortion...what Islamically says that?...and my understanding of abortion law is that you can have it until the baby is a foetus so what if your like four months pregnant...and how would it work if your a married woman...you may not know whos baby its gonna be...

As in was the fatwa a suggestion or does it have some Islamic basis/...

psyah · January 6, 2008, 10:33am

Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby

PyariCgudia:

Excellent points.

Psyah: You raise very good points as well. Touche on the point about the window. You're right, its not really a 40 day window as far as how the pill works, which makes it even more important for us to educate people to have a stock in their home or accessible immediately to them to take.

I understand that clinics are not available everywhere, especially in the muslim world.

But if we keep focusing on the solution of : Keep the child; we tend to ignore the other things we could be doing. Like building those clinics where its needed. I fail to see why, when the muslim community has the resources and manpower it has, that why in African muslim villages, it is bible thumpers putting up clinics rather than muslim outreach groups? Why? Because we really dont have many of them; those that we have are either poorly organized, or corrupt.

Building clinics, community education on topics of sexual violence and misbehavior (of all kinds, not just rape), community health education, community opening up to rape victims, community building resources for the victims, more efficient justice systems that punish rape victims severely, etc is all very important. We need to move away from this intense focus on whether or not we abort the baby. Its not the argument that's a problem. Its our OBSESSION with it. It distracts attention from other solutions that we could very well be pursuing.

And your point about the pill not working 10% of the time should really be sending up flags in peoples' minds. That means this pill solution works 90% of the time. This means that roughly, taking into consideration that not every woman is going to be in a smart mind to take the pill right away, you're looking at a 50-60% reduction in unwanted pregancies. 50-60% reduction in emotional turmoil, families being broken, unwanted babies being killed from shame or being dumped on some pervert's doorstep to exploit the child. That is a MASSIVE improvement.

Yes, your 10% of cases will still remain where we think - what to do with that child.

But that would mean, ideally, if our solutions are working right (i.e. we muslims are working right), then 10% of our time should be spent discussing this issue.

This thread - eh, I'd say, most of it was taken up with the abortion - to do, or not to do? argument.

Again, I ask you. What is this a sign of? I think it means we're not doing a good job in this area.

We're spending more time arguing over controversial questions than we are spending time finding a solution.

We're all such full of hot air. What are we doing for these girls?

Peace Sister

I am humbled with your agreement with me on some of the issues. I however, will beseech modification of the 10% of the effort you have presented above. The reason for this is that the two matters emotional turmoil vs abortion are being assumed to be equal on severity. Yes, it is true that only 10% of cases may be up to 30% of cases will result in true pregancies (i.e. baby + soul) but it is not true that the focus should be in accordance with this statistic. Because the severity has not been factored in. Islamically and ethically the severity of murder is may be 4:1 with respect to undue hardship. In which case the 10 - 30% lets say 20% would be moderated to 20% x 4 to give 80 ARB and the other 80% may not result in emotional turmoil which means it is reduced to say 70% and this is multiplied by 1 to fulfil the ratio to give a relative rating of 70 ARB ... The focus ratio should therefore be 8:7 in favour of anti-abortion:emotional turmoil.

Just figures, but I hope it emphasises my point about life and the sanctity of life ... We kill one it is like killing the whole of humanity. There is no where we it states that we disturb one individual it is like disturbing the whole of humanity. Also we need to analyse the solution of 'the pill' in context to its greater effects and proliferations ... it is true that the pill will protect from unwanted rape induced pregancies, but it will also protect from unwanted zina induced pregnancies and thus by protecting the society from emotional turmoil of rape induced children, it is also .... provided it becomes readily available ... is a 'good' way of removing the harmful consequences of 'zina' thus making 'zina' more palatable for the potential 'zaanis' (fornicators) thus it presents a risk of harming society from a different angle.