Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
A raped victim will be a satisfied and happiest person on earth after killing her unborn child, do you people really believe that?
Hareem01, you never know. I have actually witnessed cases like that where abortion was viewed by the rape victim as a kind of closure... This was the primary reason why I stated I may be falling into a trap by advocating against aborting the pregnancy.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
A raped victim will be a satisfied and happiest person on earth after killing her unborn child, do you people really believe that?
And what makes you feel that a rape victim will be a satisfied and happiest person earth after having the rapist's child.
I heard this from my friend. I am not quite sure if this is true but can relate to the story well.
A friend of my friend was unborn to an unwed mother. His so called biological father raped his mother and he was born as a result of that. His mother used to hate the very sight of him, since he was a living testimony to the trauma she had undergone. He was raised by a priest from the local church but finally ended up in a juvenile home.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
Acceptable in which respect? Pakistanis don't even accept a legitimate orphan child but does it matter? About her marriage, are you sure that your daughter will get married to a respectable man?
It's not an honour to recieve money or property from inheritance, at least not for me so I don't think it actually degrades your status of a human being, Fatima(ra) didn't recieve anything in inheritance but she is one of the best women of this Ummah.
Exactly, so the idea is why put through such trauma? The only people i know that would comfort or make a martyr or hero out of such a traumatized individual are the westerners. There would be an outpour of sympathy in the West, not in the East.
The honor lies not in the money itself; rather the connotations of such a law. Meaning you are hereby not a legimitate human being, hence you recieve nothing that you ould have otherwise recieved had your parents not commited a sin.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
Psyah & Hareem:
The psychological pressures and uncomfort may occur on the rape victim or it may not, it is hard to evaluate how much, but in any case the main pressure and uncomfort comes from the rape itself not from the child. And by killing the child there is no way to assure that it will in any way lessen the trauma. Rather it may increase the trauma, to be raped and then to have your baby killed. Those who have babies will understand this, those who have had miscarriages will understand this more. The hypothetical daughter will be taught that the pressures she faces will reduce her burden in the Akhira. Her being a mother will be like an honour, if she wants to end the child then we will wipe it off our own responsibility and let her know this. That we will support her in her decision but disagree with it nonetheless. This is only if there is a developed foetus situation.
In the Muslim world probably no where. But that also goes for many things. Pakistan however much judgmental I have seen many step-family situations much more than in the UK for example.
My own cousin is a step father to a handicapped boy. He married his mother knowing the full situation. May Allah (SWT) be pleased with my cousin, he is not seen as a saint or anything, it was quite normal for him to do this.
Islam does not give anyone even second class status, so how can you say this? Please provide evidence of this third class thing. Legitimacy in Islam is never pointed at the child it is pointed at the parents. The rapist in this case takes the full burden for the illegitimate act, not the mother and not the child. The term B**t*rd therefore is an unIslamic term, because it is in Islam that we recognise that the child is innocent.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
Hareem01, you never know. I have actually witnessed cases like that where abortion was viewed by the rape victim as a kind of closure... This was the primary reason why I stated I may be falling into a trap by advocating against aborting the pregnancy.
I'm not advocating against abortions, I'm only against "abortion must be done" situation.
And what makes you feel that a rape victim will be a satisfied and happiest person earth after having the *rapist's child.
*
So you're saying that babies belong only to their fathers?
I heard this from my friend. I am not quite sure if this is true but can relate to the story well.
A friend of my friend was unborn to an unwed mother. His so called biological father raped his mother and he was born as a result of that. His mother used to hate the very sight of him, since he was a living testimony to the trauma she had undergone. He was raised by a priest from the local church but finally ended up in a juvenile home.
Sounds like a bollywood story.....anyway, there are all kind of people in this world, we every now and again hear stories of children being killed by their biological parents especially female children, so yes, if the pregnant raped victim cannot handle or love her baby than go ahead, do whatever you like.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
I'm not advocating against abortions, I'm only against "abortion must be done" situation. ** So you're saying that babies belong only to their fathers?
Sounds like a bollywood story.....anyway, there are all kind of people in this world, we every now and again hear stories of children being killed by their biological parents especially female children, so yes, if the pregnant raped victim cannot handle or love her baby than go ahead, do whatever you like.
Hareem01 ... just to add ...
But we should discourage it as much as possible so society can be moulded towards the better understanding of preservation of life and not punishing victims for the crime of others.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
Yes I agree.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
I'm not understanding your reply entirely. You would want her to take the morning after pill or not? If she has access to the morning after pill, are you saying you'd rather she NOT take it and instead go with emotional turmoil?
I'm confused, because in most places (I'm sure you're not in severe poverty living in area with no access to proper medical care), the morning after pill is available. So, what scenario do you have in mind where you WOULD want her to go thru the emotional turmoil?
Peace PyariCgudia
Soon after incident: Take pill encouraged.
If there are delays: Pill will be ineffective, abortion is next option, this is to be discouraged because of soul entering body.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
I am surprised. What system do you talk of where you are not allowed to adopt because you already have children? Are you living in China?
Peace PyariCgudia
Foster parenting in UK is point based. Against income, residence, medical inability to have children. Those who have children and can procreate are at the back of the list. It is practically not being allowed.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
The psychological pressures and uncomfort may occur on the rape victim or it may not, it is hard to evaluate how much, but in any case the main pressure and uncomfort comes from the rape itself not from the child. And by killing the child there is no way to assure that it will in any way lessen the trauma. Rather it may increase the trauma, to be raped and then to have your baby killed. Those who have babies will understand this, those who have had miscarriages will understand this more. The hypothetical daughter will be taught that the pressures she faces will reduce her burden in the Akhira. Her being a mother will be like an honour, if she wants to end the child then we will wipe it off our own responsibility and let her know this. That we will support her in her decision but disagree with it nonetheless. This is only if there is a developed foetus situation.
In the Muslim world probably no where. But that also goes for many things. Pakistan however much judgmental I have seen many step-family situations much more than in the UK for example. My own cousin is a step father to a handicapped boy. He married his mother knowing the full situation. May Allah (SWT) be pleased with my cousin, he is not seen as a saint or anything, it was quite normal for him to do this.
Islam does not give anyone even second class status, so how can you say this? Please provide evidence of this third class thing. Legitimacy in Islam is never pointed at the child it is pointed at the parents. The rapist in this case takes the full burden for the illegitimate act, not the mother and not the child. The term B**t*rd therefore is an unIslamic term, because it is in Islam that we recognise that the child is innocent.
Psyah & Hareem:
Its true killing or not killing may or may not effect the trauma itself; but im willing to bet killing the child does diminish the trauma because you dont have to relive it over and over. Depends on the personality though....
In Pakistan people believe they have the right to be judgemental. India is worse. Westerners tend to have more sympathy for orphans, widows, divorced women, older veterans - and it shows through their NGOs and other works.
Evidence of Second Class Status:
[a] permission of slavery: Would you, ever enjoy being someone elses slave? Would a female ever enjoy being someones slave; and suffering penalty while not providing sexual services to male masters?
In the regard of slavery, everyone practiced it but the West were the first to realize its hazards. It was the British Empire that forced the Ottoman Empire to stop slavery within it or face economic blockades.
** a ******* child is not assigned wealth from inheritance; he is regarded as a pariah under Shariah law: As a child born into this world; would you enjoy being a social outcast? Islam advocates placing the guilt on the sinners but the social burden is also placed on the innocent newborn. And this is further enhanced if the child goes to school; where the other kids callling him names for crimes he did not commit would be looked upon as an unfortunate, but very applicable adjective. Meaning, society will think: "Poor child, the other children call him names * but its not exactly a lie either; so i cant really stop them*".
[c] dhimmitude: In the west we pay taxes like everyone else, we are allowed to drink, eat, sleep in the hotels everyone else is allowed to, we are allowed to pray in our masjids without much bother, we dont have restrictions placed upon us [muslims cannot enter so and so a place, muslims can not marry so and so people]. However Non-Muslims are not assigned the same status as we are in their nation.
Hence these are the third class citizens of Islam.**
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
Peace Bidd3h
I'm not sure you realise that you are doing bidd3h with my wife's post. My wife has essentially said that she will not agree with a decision that goes towards killing if it reached a point after a number of days when the life comes in to the foetus. The child would be raised by us, the parents of the hypothetical victim.
The reason why the allowing of the child to be born would be chosen is because Islamically the lesser of the two evils is to allow the child to be born. Here is why.
1) Killing would be 100% the result 2) The despising society is not a 100% phenomenon there could be a way out of it. Identity realignment, moving home, going to a place where such people are socially acceptable. 3) The chance of the child being a good one is wholly dependent on tawfiq and how parents raise the child. 4) The damage of death outweighs the damage of being socially rejected. 5) The life is given by Allah (SWT) not the rapist.
Now read above and ask yourself why you think Hareem01 will force a hypothetical daughter to have her child, she said no such thing.
I didn't know Hareem was your wife, very cute mashallah :D
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
Psyah & Hareem:
Peace again Bidd3h
Where does it say this? You can use your intelligence all you like. From the source of Islam no man is superior to another except by conduct. That means a slave can be better than his master. Besides slavery has been abolished or become unfashionable. The question you ask about feelings of slaves, that is irrelevant in a time when people are not accustomed to the slavery mindset. There have been such slaves in the past that have considered it an honour to be so in given households. The sexual services thing again is a misnoma. Come one quit the rationalisation. Where does Islam consider difference in status of anyone?
** a ******* child is not assigned wealth from inheritance; he is regarded as a pariah under Shariah law: As a child born into this world; would you enjoy being a social outcast? Islam advocates placing the guilt on the sinners but the social burden is also placed on the innocent newborn. And this is further enhanced if the child goes to school; where the other kids callling him names for crimes he did not commit would be looked upon as an unfortunate, but very applicable adjective. Meaning, society will think: "Poor child, the other children call him names * but its not exactly a lie either; so i cant really stop them*".
Again you have provided no reference. You may be right I would like to see it. You say there is no inheritance. What about the mothers own money. Does the child not get from the mother? I don't know the answer to this it is just a question. And besides how does not gaining inheritance (wordly) justify the statement that the class is lower?
[c] dhimmitude: In the west we pay taxes like everyone else, we are allowed to drink, eat, sleep in the hotels everyone else is allowed to, we are allowed to pray in our masjids without much bother, we dont have restrictions placed upon us [muslims cannot enter so and so a place, muslims can not marry so and so people]. However Non-Muslims are not assigned the same status as we are in their nation. Hence these are the third class citizens of Islam.
In this day and age Non-Muslim White Americans are paid on a higher basis than Muslim Indians working in the same Arab country. If wealth was the measure of status in Islam then Arabs are making non-Muslims of super high class. As for classically .... the jizyah tax payer was not even required to fight. The Muslims had to defend them too. There ae ups and downs in certain areas, but the general message is the same. No one in Islam is better or worse no illegitimate child no legitimate king except by conduct. My reference - The last sermon.**
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
Hareem:
Heres another question, America is in Iraq and Afghanistan right now. If America followed Shairah law, they would be making slaves out of the losers. Is that something youd enjoy?
Yes, when you dont get the inheritance you are considered inelligeable due to illegitamacy. Im not going to provide any evidence but i will provide sources. www.searchtruth.com
Americans are paid higher because they come from higher educational institutions. For example, within America itself some people who come from better and highly valued universities get paid more than people who come from so-so universities.
Anyways, we arent comparing Arab pay rates to an institutionalized form of dhimmitude. Pray tell, does Allah SWT order the Muslims to extract extra tax from the non-muslims because the Arabs pay them more?
Your arguments stand on weak and ineffectual basis. The last sermons orders the Muslims to take care of their wives and an arab is no better than a non arab.
But as Islam is practiced, and has always been practiced:
[a] muslim pays less tax than nonmuslims; which is why the Ummayad Khalifate prevented non-arabs from converting to Islam
** illigitamate children are looked upon as a grievance and are witheld from inheritance and from being given the family name
[c] slaves are ordered to remain put; enemies are made into slaves
Im sorry, but im not providing sources for things i deem you can go ask your local maulvi or search online at the hadith database, www.searchtruth.com
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
Can the mods fork this thread? Theres a new issue about slavery, which I think needs investigation.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
Can the mods fork this thread? Theres a new issue about slavery, which I think needs investigation.
Peace hypnotix-2000
Right on!
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
Dain(churail), thats what you call "a female baby killer " in Urdu.
It's not from or on al azhar's website, and i can't see this fatwa on islamonline(a website with scholars mostly from al azhar)either.
I'm still not convinced by these reasonings. You've done a superficial search online and you're convinced with your reasoning because you're biased by it.
Tell me, does Al-Azhar make it a KNOWN policy to have all their fatwas up on their website? Or is this a fatwa that is under discussion still and not up on the web because its been so far, simply proposed?
Lets keep our minds open to all possibilities.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
Peace Bidd3h
I'm not sure you realise that you are doing bidd3h with my wife's post. My wife has essentially said that she will not agree with a decision that goes towards killing if it reached a point after a number of days when the life comes in to the foetus. The child would be raised by us, the parents of the hypothetical victim.
The reason why the allowing of the child to be born would be chosen is because Islamically the lesser of the two evils is to allow the child to be born. Here is why.
1) Killing would be 100% the result 2) The despising society is not a 100% phenomenon there could be a way out of it. Identity realignment, moving home, going to a place where such people are socially acceptable. 3) The chance of the child being a good one is wholly dependent on tawfiq and how parents raise the child. 4) The damage of death outweighs the damage of being socially rejected. 5) The life is given by Allah (SWT) not the rapist.
Now read above and ask yourself why you think Hareem01 will force a hypothetical daughter to have her child, she said no such thing.
This makes things a little more clear for those who would take the time to read the entire thing, which wont be many people. Anyone who quickly skims this would still think you're actually PROMOTING people to keep the baby. You barely mention the morning-after pill, nor do you strongly suggest that the first line thing for someone to do is to try to get their hands on one, through a hospital.
We emphasize the wrong things.
There is a solution now for these problems, and the muslim scholarly world has accepted it, so lets start PROMOTING it. Discussing what you would do if the pill were not taken should only come up in cases where this sort of thing happens, hopefully a minority of cases if the morning-after pill had been pushed by knowledgeable people like yourself.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
Allah says in the Holy Qur'an Surah 17, ayah 31, And kill not your children for fear of poverty. We shall provide for them as well as for you. Surely, the killing of them is a great sin.
In Two Sahihs it is recorded that Abdullah bin Masud said: "I said, O Messenger of Allah, which sin is the worst' He said,
(To appoint rivals of Allah when He has created you.) I asked,Then what' He said, (To kill your child lest he should eat with you.) I asked, `Then what' He said, (To commit adultery with your neighbor's wife.)''
And Mr/Ms Bidd3h! Killing an unborn child out of fear of poverty or other reasons like fear of hatred of society etc is a sin. And if my hypothetical daughter is not ready for it and she wants it to be aborted than its up to her, I can't force anyone (especially an adult) to do something against her will. That's how I used to think when I was 14, and after 10 years I still think like that. This is what I said in my earlier post as well, but you are only reading what you want to read and what you want to make out of it.
Again, same problem. You two, husband and wife, keep emphasizing the wrong things. There is a solution to the problem. These verses come to be applied when you miss the window of the first 40 days post-conception, quite a stretch of time after an incidence of rape.
I urge you to stop misleading people by trying to make it seem that under no circumstance should a woman try to pursue interventional methods to stop the development of the embryo post-conception.
Most people don't understand the difference between a fetus and an embryo, so its best not to confuse people. You can usually abort an embryo. You cannot abort a fetus. But you people are not making this distinction clear.
IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN RAPED: Urge them to immediately go to a hospital and ask for a morning-after pill. I would even urge women to have a few at home, if its legal in their countries to get their hands on one (ask the doctor to write you a preventative perscription). If an incident takes place, take one immediately, and then go to the emergency room.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
I'm still not convinced by these reasonings. You've done a superficial search online and you're convinced with your reasoning because you're biased by it.
Tell me, does Al-Azhar make it a KNOWN policy to have all their fatwas up on their website? Or is this a fatwa that is under discussion still and not up on the web because its been so far, simply proposed?
Lets keep our minds open to all possibilities.
They've already given the similar fatwa in 2004 in which they gave this** option** of abortion to Bosnian women who were raped by kaafirs..... but this fatwa " must be aborted " doesn't make any sense, it sounds like they're forcing women to abort their babies.
Re: Al-Azhar says women pregnant by rape must abort baby
You don't like one extreme, which is fair enough. So perhaps it should read "may have the option to abort". If I get raped and I actually want to keep the baby, then why not? But why make an issue over a minority of cases? Most women and little girls would be horrified with keeping the child. Again, if it ever happens in your case, please do share with us how you decided to handle it.
But as of yet, in this 6 page thread, I have YET to see you even encourage the viable option available to nearly most women in the world. Morning after pill. I will be content if you post a strong post urging women to not delay and take the pill immediately if such a circumstance were to happen.
Your husband, at least, has had the conscience tameez to acknowledge in one of his posts that its the right way to go, even though he, just like you is spending more time arguing about what you'd do post-40 days. You will mislead women and men perusing through this thread, who will walk away thinking : Under no circumstance can I stop the cellular division of this baby. They will walk away not realizing there is a stage where you can abort the "child", because it is not really a "child" yet.