Ahmadi-Thread

Walaikum-us-salaam Brother,
My sincere congratulations to you Allah Ditta, You've said all truth! I knew all that as well. But I didn't have the references. JazakAllah brother for your efforts.
May Allah (subhana wataa'la) grant every non-muslim "hidayah" [Aameen Sumaameen!]

Tauba! Astaghfirullahal lazi LaIlaha Illah huwal hayyul qayyumu wa-atubu Ilayh.

La haula wa la quwatta illa billah

Re: Ahmadi-Thread

I'm amazed at the lenght that some of socalled true muslims go to prove us Ahmadis wrong/misguided and how Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani was an imposter (according to me nauzbillah).

Question is (and i can't see that as i or other fellow Ahmadis don't watch u true Muslims folks 24/7) that whether u also pray to Allah SWT for the "misguided" to be shown the right path?

Question. How would any of u teach/tell an christian (regardless of being Catholic or Evangelic) that Islam is the right path to Allah SWT and the best way to go for it is to follow the Holy Qur'an and the Hazrat Muhammad SAW example

OR

would u start attacking the church or it's respetive leaders just to show how low and immoral life they r spending on earth surface.

Can somebody quote a hadeeth where Hazrat Mohammad SAW used to convince the Kuffar-e-Makkah of Islam by abusing/attacking their "gods"

Any authentic reference is welcome as it would enhance my knowledge and i'll be grateful.

Saying that u r on the wrong path is one thing. Pointing out with Qur'anic reference is even more helpful as no sane person who believe in the one and only Allah SWT and Hazrat Muhammad SAW as his Messenger would deny a qur'anic reference (in Arabic coz translations can be misinterpreted). But abusing/attacking as have many socalled Maulanas have done before.... well this ain't from the life of Hazrat Muhammad SAW.

I wonder why they aren't so many Threads about Shiites being wrong or even Sunnis being wrong, Deobandi, Berelvi, Naqshbandi, Ismaeli, Ahle-hadeeth, Ahle-Qur'an, Alevi, Wahabi and this List goes on and on ..... but every other day a socalled True Muslim wakes up and thinks hmmmm. a good deed today would be to ask the Ahmadis (or Qadiyanis as some prefer) to at last return into the circle of True Islam by denouncing Ahmadiyyat.

I hope this encourages some True Muslim to open a thread on the above mentioned sects/or school of thought.

Bashing Ahmaddiyat or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is way too easy isn't it coz here many of u unite to join in.

BTW if i prepare myself to denounce Ahmadiyyat which school of thought/sect shall i follow to ensure i'm on the path that Allah SWT will please ? I'm not kidding/joking but dead serious. I hope i get some insightful replies.

Happy Ramzan. May Allah SWT guide us to the path of those on whom he shed his bounty. Ameen summa Ameen.

Assalamu alaikum to all Sunni Muslims

Namaste to Qadianis

We don’t have to go to any “length” to prove that Mirza sahib was a liar, it is very easy. All you have to do is pick up one of his books and you will guaranteed find at least a couple of kufr statements on virtually every page. I’m sorry to offend you, but Mirza Qadiani was not a sane person, he wrote lot of filthy trash in his books which offend every single Muslim who has any love for Nabi (sallallahu alaihi wa salam).

You are right that we should regularly beseech Allah Taala to guide the kuffar to Islam. I personally am an ex-Qadiani who converted to Islam. Most of my family is still part of the Qadiani religion and I try to pray that Allah guides them to the true path on regular basis.

Tabligh is a delicate matter. Depending on who you are trying to teach about Islam, your approach may differ. For example, if you are giving tabligh to an ordinary Christian you have to teach him about the concept of tawheed and prove to him that Eesa (alaihi salam) is not divine, but rather only a human being who cannot even breathe without Allah’s permission. If you are giving tabligh to a Hindu you have to explain to him that since Allah alone created the heavens and the earth, only He is worthy of ibadat, and that nothing besides Him alone has the power to benefit or harm. And if you are giving tabligh to a Qadiani, you have to explain to him that Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) is the final prophet and no prophet can come after him. Since Qadianis commit kufr by believing Mirza Qadiani to be a prophet of Allah, you have to prove to them that Mirza was a liar and there will be no new prophet after Huzoor (sallallahu alaihi wa salam). So this is our objective towards Qadianis.

Nabi (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) said 73 sects will arise out of Islam, all will be in the fire except for one, that which he and his companions are upon (ahle sunnat wal jamaat), all other sects, parties, groups, and movements are either misguided our outright guilty of disbelief, as in the case with Qadianis. But you are right that we should also expose other groups, such as shias, ismailis, alawis, bahais, bohras, druze, etc. Unfortunately, since I am a new member I am not allowed to give you link to some very valuable websites which expose many of these false sects which claim to be Islamic.

Alhamdulillah I am glad to see you are thinking of leaving Qadiani jamaat and converting to Islam. It is very important that you become a true Muslim and not simply convert from one false religion to another, as that will defeat the whole purpose and change nothing. Pray sincerely to Allah to give you hidayat and make you see the truth of AHLE SUNNAT WAL JAMAAT, the path of Quran and Sunnat (i.e. Sunni Islam).

The differences between other sects usually starts After Prophet s.a.w and every sect wud denounce ahmediat coz they calim to have a different last Prophet. So i guess thats the reason y everyone gangs up on Ahmedi's.

Happy Ramzan to you too and the part where u said "every day some so called muslim wakes up" was funny.

Am glad that u r seraching for the right path its not easy to give up ur religion .... alot of those sunni shia's on this forum wud be defending ahmedi's if they were born in a ahmedi family. Hope ALLAH guides u to right Path.

Re: Ahmadi-Thread

psyah brother-as i trust ur sources n wat u say can u plz gimme a low down on wats goin on i mean im very konfused about all this, strt with what ahmedis r n who they believe in plz.....
if u dnt mind me saying do ahmedis beleive the guy that used to drink wine n got so drunk he died to b a prophet?well i find that soooo funny
sorry no offence meant to anyone i just wrote wat i knw n heard

Re: Ahmadi-Thread

kisi bhi peghambar, masih,imam,wali ki kia jismany aur rohani sifat hony chayahn aur is tanazur main mirza ghulam ahmed ki kia sifat hain k hum unko yah manay k woh masih hain

This guy has serious psychological issues. He writes a blog under the name of Suspect Paki.. Alot of abuse against his ex-wife and swearing in general. He is probably a very frustrated and naive individual..

Is that all you've got to say in your response to shahidkamal's videos? Do you have the proof for everything you said about him and even if you have the proof I don't really need to see it because it's not related to this thread at all. He has shown and said everything with proof [mirza's writings].

Your mirza sahib has also used swear words in his writings...would you like to see them?

Peace sister sweetu

Ahmadis are indeed followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. Who came around 100 years ago during the times when India was struggling with Britain for independence. Qadian is an area in India.

According to Ahmadis he is the Mahdi, but according to Sunnis and Shias for that matter he cannot be for a number of reasons. Anyway, after claiming to be him he also claimed to be Isa (AS) in that they are one in the same person. All Muslims are waiting for Isa (AS) to come back in his second coming to lead the world toward peace and establish Islam in all corners. Some people like the Ahmadis interpret many of the end times hadith in a metaphoric way and thus they arrive at concluding that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was who he claimed to be. Because the British were more tolerant of a passive ideology such as the one brought by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad they began to rise and grow. Our leaders in that time were very much caught up in ferocious talk and the newly emerging diplomatic arena bent a slant towards Muslims as being uncivilised and unruly. Jihad is thus tamed down when it comes to Ahmadis they prefer to get into debates and discussion.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad impressively wrote many books and parts of them in five other languages. This feat intrigued the mostly ignorant Indians of 100 years ago very much. I believe he was the son of a laywer, so he may have learned the art of argumentation from a good source.

Ahmadis do believe that Muhammad (SAW) is the greatest and seal of prophets, but their actions are not synchronised with their words, making it seem like lip service. They however, believe that the narrations of the second coming are not to be Isa (AS) himself as he according to them has died and is buried in Kashmir. The Ummah reject this assertion and we believe that he is still alive and shall return. The Bible makes an interesting comment that Jesus (AS) will return in the same state that he left this world.

There are darker versions of history which connect a few more dots and move into his actual life and habits. These are things that Ahmadis reject about the claims regarding him, but now as we can see many of these are in their own provided links. They have acquired a similar skill in that they are very good at giving alternative explanations to quite simple hadith and statements. This systematic process of explaining things in round about ways is how this group has managed to last so long.

I don't know if he drunk, but he asked for wine. I don't know if he took opium, but he made a medicine from it ...

I have my personal thoughts but I am looking for proof. Just recently I have seen that he wrote a statement about his wife asking him to be the only person to wash her dead body. This I found interesting as this statement was made by Fatimah (RA) to Ali (RA). Also he said that he felt the pains of child birth taking the exact words from the Qur'an but only replacing the she with he. How a man can have child bearing pains defeats me, but it seems a bit odd, we can demand an explanation from our Ahmadi brothers.

Another thing he said which really makes me think is that "one does not attain high spiritual status until he undergoes a kind of death" these again are not original to him. These words sound as if they have come from the Triadic esoteric beliefs. The Mithras worshippers used to say this, and this legacy cascades into the more recent masonic groups. Kamran Rad who is a Muslim author also writes that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had dealings with such people. But you see all this is speculative reading between the lines. What is for sure is that his own works are inconsistent and random from what I have seen so far.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad received many visions and dreams and I believe he did. But I doubt heavily that he was visited by anything good. He has said that he was offered the world by God in human form and in another case he felt like God. These are clear tricks from Shaytan, because the style is his that he tempts using lures of this world.

My remarks were in response to someone who implied that Shahid Kamal "knows his stuff".. Nothing personal. You can google him and see for yourself. Abusing his ex-wife, using f and c word liberally etc etc tells about his mental state..

As for Promised Messiah's writings, there is nothing objectionable if read in its proper context. Mullahs have a few routines that they pull out on every occasion. I remember Shorish Kashmiri swearing profusedly in a Khatme nabuwwat rally in 1974 because he wanted to prove that "zurriyatul baghaya" was used for every living muslim in the world. And this gives every tom dick and harry to use common street abuse against ahmadis. The truth is that Mullah has taken everyone for a ride and the common muslim has yet again fallen for this trap..

Sir, I admire your study of the Ahmadiyya movement but because you want to find flaws in our beliefs, you have made many assumptions not fit for a fair researcher.

For example, your observation that "he felt like God" is clearly a satanic idea is wrong. God becomes hands and feet of his true servant according to a Hadith e Qudsi. Quran also says that the hand that took Bai'at of the believers was not that of Holy Prophet (saw), but God's own. There are many instances in Sufi literature which supports this view and thus can not be found objectionable.

This links in with the idea of death giving way to spiritual life. Again, you have assumed that this is somehow a stolen idea. But it has its sound basis in the Quran. Bai'at, an established custom in Islam is literally selling one's soul to God. i.e., assuming a death like state in material sense. Quran speaks of Martyrdom as a form of eternal life. One kind of martyrs are those who die in the way of Allah i.e., in wars etc. But the wider definition of Shaheed is of a person who witnesses the Glory of God and thus gains eternal (spiritual) life and this title is not reserved to the fallen of holy wars. There are also many instances where life and death cycle in nature is compared to spiritual rejuvenation of people. I can not see how you find this idea alien to Islam.

The female analogies of pangs of labour, transformation which happens from embryonic states to a fully grown man etc are all spiritual analogies. Mullah considers such analogies as filth, but to be fair, we all are product of such physical processes and there is nothing wrong with drawing analogies as there is nothing dirty or wrong with them. Many Ahadith draw analogies between mothers emotions and God's love for his servants. Quran calls all believers to be the likeness of the wife of Pharoah and mother of Jesus (as)..

As for Tonic wine, opium, cocaine derivatives etc.. these all were and are used as halal medicinal products. If you go to a dentist you get a shot of coccaine in your gums.. Sufferers of severe pains get opiods in all muslim countries and alcohol is a carrier of many medicines in all systems of treatment.

And a few corrections.. The father of Mirza Sahib was not a lawyer, but a land owner. Mirza sahib did work in courts of law in Sialkot, but his argumentative skills were derived from Quran and a well established Islamic tradition called Ilmul Kalam. I find in his words many jewels of wisdom, which you can also find if you read them with the right questions in your mind. For example, ask yourself what could be the answer to the Danish cartoons and then read his discourses on Jihad and the life of Holy Prophet (saw).. You will find plenty of responses which will open your eyes to the beauties of Quran.

The notions of Jihad and violence which still prevail in orthodox muslim minds has been dealt a heavy blow when Sayed Imam Abdulaziz al-Sharif, the intellectual father of Al-Qaeda, Islamic Jihad etc etc recanted from his beliefs and issued a detailed series of edicts explaining the true Islamic Jihad. No surprises here as most of his arguments seem to agree with what Mirza Sahib wrote more than a hundred years ago. It is not British who needed a peaceful movement in Islam. Infact they would have and still are benefitting from the fool hardiness of the Mullah. How they have managed to attain control of muslim lands is not the fault of peace loving muslims or even corrupt leaders, but it is the foolishness of the Mullah who has literally said "aa bail mujhay maar" ..

There is an increasing number of scholars who now vocally preach peaceful Jihad. Many stress on the need of Khilafat and there is a growing number of scholars who consider Jesus (as) to have died. Why would the colonial British support a movement which in effect killed their God?

Peace Destino

Well I must hand it to you that you have indeed got the knack for sobriety in your discourses. It is not my duty to convince or argue. I understand that there are some answers to our said things but I also feel some things do not come close. Reflexive logic can be a dangerous thing, especially when talking about God. We can leave it there enough for you to really think about the overall message of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and how it compares with the overall message of Muhammad (SAW).

The nature of prophecy and its fulfilment in the past compared to the stretched definitions in these days in order for forced fulfilment is telltale of foul play. We can bring in metaphor where ever we like and we can quite simply turn definitions on their heads, but we need to do so making sure we have not become something totally different in the process. The main cause of sects in dogma are not due to the literal word but due to how it is interpreted.

From reading the more contemporary works of Ahmadis I can see a consistency of what would be called a denial of miracles, but to you our stance would seem like sourcery and magic. I can assure this is not the case regarding miracles. When I hear of them I can see before my eyes the might of Allah (SWT). There is no reason why there should be allegory or metaphor in simple narrative of past events.

We can read the hadith and Qur'an without having to raise an eyebrow, sometimes we may be confused but it becomes a phenomenon too often trying to rack ones brains to make sense of the writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. The styles are very different and the motives too, these are points that need to be 'realised' not argued. I like others invite to openness and unbiased study.
Some of the things drawn in comparison by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad such as association to Maryam (AS) has never been done by Muhammad (SAW) neither literally nor in metaphor. You see if 90% of what you say resides in mutashabihah how can anyone know for sure?

Jihad is about struggling against oneself. The oneself in this matter is part of oneself that draws us away from our principles on the grounds of personal comfort and selfish desire. Muslims are raised for peace and love, so it truly is a Jihad for them to fight, especially when the need the arrises. Instead of reducing the whole Muslim ummah to 'mullahism' one needs to view the aqeedah with serious intent to unify and agree on terms. It is not the nature of a prophet for example to claim to be like or feel like God, regardless of the metaphoric intent of the words. Can you see this?

Re: Ahmadi-Thread

More on the topic ...

prophetic finality - we have many hadith and a verse in the Qur'an claiming finality, we have a hadith that warns us not to assume that no prophet shall come.

What can this mean?

They seem to be contradictory, but that is not so. Where the Ahmadi take the definition 'seal' and reject the hadith that state 'final' and bring this hadith to support their definition. There is actually a stance that suits all.

To objectively analyse this situation one needs to see that 'seal' can mean 'final' and in the normal case does mean final. Only in an odd way can seal mean something else. Stamp like an attestation. But then what is Muhammad (SAW) the seal or attestation to? Another subject!

We do not believe that Isa (AS) has died
The references about his second coming use the full name Isa ibn Maryam
No prophet looses his prophetic title

It can therefore mean and only mean that in order to maximise all the references to be accurate above without maiming or denying any of them the correct understanding decants out to be that Muhammad (SAW) is the last prophet to be appointed and born in this world. However, Isa (AS) is a prophet and shall return after Muhammad (SAW)'s death. Any other interpretation renders one or more references obsolete.

Another basis ... which is more fundamental ... Assuming the Muslim ummah has fallen in to grave error regarding the concept of finality ... if this be the case then what method was used to determine true prophethood?

A prophet would be the most prominent and sublime of his people
A prophet would have signs that would precede his birth
A prophet would be the most physically beautiful of his people
A prophet would have no physical ailment or disfigurement

Other general observations ... Worldly institutions of education would not be part of his life process. Not sure if all had this but the mark of prophethood between the shoulder blades is another sign.

We should factor these points in to our identification of a true prophet !!!

Re: Ahmadi-Thread

Overall message of Promised Messiah (as) has been outlined in the Hadith in two words. He will be Hakam and Adal. i.e., His way will be the exact true Islam as brought by the Holy Prophet (saw). You have to discuss specific examples in order to make your point. You can not compare Quran with a human's work. What the Promised Messiah (as) wrote was in support of Quranic messages and teachings and not something to compare it with.

As for miracles, I think if any muslim community in the world believes in miracles, its Ahmadis. Our miracles are not to compete with hindu myths, but to prove a Living God. Quran is a miracle, acceptance of prayers is a miracle. And besides, miracles are not for converting unbelievers. Quran says that even if miracles were provided on demand, they will say its sorcery. Our explanantion of miracles is not because we do not believe in them, we explain them to ensure that Islam is not turned into a myth based religion. For example, all this business of Jesus (as) floating down from skies and killing the pigs etc. It simply doesn't make sense. There are no miracles in the Quran or proven ahadith of the Holy Prophet (saw) that we deny. We believe that Holy Prophet (saw) fed a large group of his companions from a small bowl of soup. We also believe in the miracle of the splitting of the moon, the miracle of the defeat of Meccans at Badr, and many many more. The kind of "miracles" we do not believe in are like Prophet (saw) not having a shadow, Jesus (as) bringing the dead back to life etc etc.

You have also tried to oversimplify the issue of the finality of Prophethood. The finality is in term of all prophetic qualities. Physical appearance etc etc are only minor points and do not relate directly to the spiritual status of prophecy.

Re: Ahmadi-Thread

Jazak'Allah Psyah bhai it is all the more clear now

Re: Ahmadi-Thread

Identification of the Prophet :

Quranic criteria is..

  1. Need of a prophet

i.e., why would Jesus (as) required to descend. Is it to reform the Ummah which as gone astray on the footsteps of Israelites.?

  1. Claim of the Prophethood

i.e., is the person calling towards the same God, message as previous prophets. Is he adding/subtrating things from Shariah.. (This is applicable to the Promised Messiah (as) as Quran is the final Shariah).

  1. Life before the claim.

What was the claimant like before he made the claim. Was he truthful, trustworthy, pious. etc etc.

  1. Signs and miracles/prophecies

IS the claimant supported by the signs fortold in the scriptures. Does he exhibit the signs of his truthfulness by showing signs from God.

These all are based on Quranic verses. And these should be the criteria to judge the claims of Promised Messiah (as).

Peace Destino

You see it is the picking and choosing of miracles that determines where you are leading. The denial of the ascension and descension on one count because it does not make sense, but the agreement of the virgin birth because ... why? Look carefully 'miracles' do not make sense, that is why they are miracles.

As for some claims from lay persons that prophet Muhammad (SAW) did not have a shadow these are not miracles. Rather because he had clouds to shield him from the sun his own shadow may not have been present, so derived miraculous phenomena may be.

What does it mean that Qur'an is a miracle? It means that there can be no sense attached to the idea that a man like Muhammad (SAW) could possibly have flowing all of that perfect knowledge. That Ibrahim (AS) did not burn in a blazing fire. That Musa (AS) was made a journey through a parted sea.

Whereas cloning makes it possible for life to be seeded asexually, this would be slander to assume that Maryam (AS) used such practices to conceive Isa (AS). Those days held no such technology and nor can we assume such things. The conception was no doubt something that does not make sense. But Muslims are required to believe in such things ...

Our concepts are not new ... Imam At-Tahawi (853 - 933 CE) That is around 1100 years ago a definitive creed was penned for Muslims to acknowledge. The important points are as so:

  1. And Muhammad (SAW) is His chosen one , His preeminent prophet, and His messenger, with whom He is well pleased.

  2. He is the finality (seal) of the prophets, the paragon of the pious, the master of the messengers, and the beloved of the Lord of all worlds.

  3. Any claim to prophecy after him is deviation and heresy.

With regards to metaphors attributed to Allah (SWT) by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ..
38. Whoever ascribes any human qualities to God has basphemed. So whoever perceives this takes heed and refrains from such statements of the disbelievers and knows that God, the Sublime and Exalted, in all of His attributes, is utterly unlike humanity.

  1. The Ascension (mi'raaj) is true. The Prophet (SAW) was taken by night and ascended in person and consciously to the heavenly realm ....

  2. We do not dissent from the majority of Muslims

  3. We adhere to the Sunnah and the majority [of scholars], and we avoid isolated opinions, discord, and sectarianism.

  4. We believe in the miracles (karamah) of the saints as conveyed and verified by trustworthy narrators.

  5. We believe in the signs of the End of Time, including the appearance of the Antichrist and the Descent of Jesus, the son of Mary (AS), from the celestial realm. We also believe in the sun's rising in the west and the appearance of the Beast of the Earth from its appointed place.

  6. We consider the mainstream to be true and correct, and schism to be deviant and destructive.

Take a look at this…it will answer most if not all your questions about Ahmadi Muslims.

http://www.alislam.org/books/ahmadiyyat/WelcomeBook2ndEd.pdf