Re: Ahmadi-Thread
There are so many people who are non muslim who have beard and yet they commit sins..
simply putting..
Keeping a beard and doing sinful acts = not good
Being a Muslim and either keeping or not keeping a beard and doing good deeds = good
or according to you.. one can show love towards Prophet PBUH by keeping beard? and dont follow anything else that He PBUH taught?
i am
why u are a outsider?? and who say this????
Re: Ahmadi-Thread
i can give you many more examples than you of people with beard who do good by following the path of rasoolullah (pbuh)
i was just saying it's a shocking obervation, a jamaat that claims to follow the sunnah, suprising numbers of these followers do not have a beard.
why u are a outsider?? and who say this????
mirza sahab said that whoever does not accept him, he's an outsider. i am proud of that! :D
i can give you many more examples than you of people with beard who do good by following the path of rasoolullah (pbuh)
i was just saying it's a shocking obervation, a jamaat that claims to follow the sunnah, suprising numbers of these followers do not have a beard.
indeed very 'shocking' :)
mirza sahab said that whoever does not accept him, he's an outsider. i am proud of that! :D
thats not true when does he say this!!!????
thats not true when does he say this!!!????
"Except for the CHILDREN OF PROSTITUTE, whose hearts have been sealed by God, everyone else believes in me and has accepted me." (Aina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam, Roohani Khazain vol.5 p.547)
"God has revealed to me that anyone to whom my message has reached and he has not accepted me , he is not a muslim." (Letter of Mirza to Dr. Abdul Hakeem Khan Patialvi)
"I have God's inspiration that he who does not follow you and will not enter your Ba'ith and remain your opponent, he is disobedient of God and His Prophet, Hellish." (Advertisement in M'ayaar-ul-Akhyar by Mirza Ghulam p.8)
"Thus remember as God has informed me, it is forbidden and absolutely forbidden to pray behind any disbeliever and hesitant; but is should be that your imam should be one of you." (Arbaeen No 3, Roohani Khazain vol.17 p.417 footnote)
Some one asked a question and Mirza has replied to it. Both are mentioned in his book, Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi. I quote:
"Question: Huzoor-e-aali has mentioned in thousands of places that it is not at all right to call KAFIR a Kalima-go (one who recites a Kalima) and an Ahle-Qibla. It is quite obvious that except those Momineen who become Kafir by rejecting you, just by not accepting you no one becomes a Kafir. But you write to Abdul Hakeem Khan that anyone who has received my message and he has not accepted me, he is not Muslim. There is contradiction between this statement and the statements in previous books. Earlier in Tiryaq-ul-Quloob etc you had mentioned that no one becomes Kafir by not accepting you and now you are writing that by rejecting me he becomes a Kafir.
Answer: This is strange that you consider the person who rejects me and the person who calls me Kafir as two different persons, whereas in the eyes of God he is the same type; because he who does not accept me is because he considers me a fabricator.... apart from this, he who does not accept me, he does not believe in God and His Prophet as well, because there is God's and his Prophet's prophecy regarding me" (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol.22 p.167)
"It is our obligation that we do not consider non-ahmadis as muslims and do not pray behind them, because for us they have rejected one prophet (Mirza Ghulam) of God. This is a religious matter and no one has any right to do anything in it." (Anwar-e-Khilafat, by Mirza Mahmood, Khalifa 2, p.90)
"All muslims who are not included in the initiation of Maseeh Mowood, even if they have not heard the name of Maseeh Mowood, they are Kafir and out of the fold of Islam. I admit that these are my beliefs." (Aina-e-Sadaqat, by Mirza Mahmood, 2nd Khalifa, p.35)
"Every one who accepts Moses but not Eesa or accepts Eesa but not Mohammad or accepts Mohammad but not Maseeh Mowood, he is not only Kafir but a hardened Kafir and is out of the fold of Islam. (Kalimat-alFasl by Mirza Basheer Ahmad s/o Mirza Ghulam p.110)
"Is it permitted to say May God Bless the departed soul, forgive him and send him to Paradise for a person who was not included in Ahmadiyyat?"
Answer: "The KUFR of non-Ahmadis is proven by evident signs and it is not permitted to ask for forgiveness for non-believers (KUFFAR)." (Al-Fazl Qadian vol.8, No. 59, 7th Feb 1921)
"Non-Ahmadis are the disbelievers therefore their funeral prayers should not be offered, but if an infant of non-ahmadi dies, why should we not pray his funeral prayer, he is not a disbeliever of Maseeh Mowood? I ask the inquirer, that if this is true than why don't we offer funeral prayer of a Hindu or a Christian child? How many people offer their funeral prayer?" (Anwar-e-Khilafat, Mirza Mahmood, 2nd Khalifa, p.93)
"It is the order of Hazrat Maseeh Mowood and firm order that no ahmadi should give his daughter to non-ahmadi. It is obligatory on every ahmadi to carry it out..... there is great loss in it, besides this marriage is not permitted." (Barakat-e-Khilafat by Mirza Mehmood p.73)
"Our prayers are separate from Non-ahmadis, it is forbidden to give our girls to them, we are stopped to offer their funeral prayers. Now what is left that we can participate with them? There are only two kinds of relations - religious and worldly. For religious relations, it is the gathering for prayers and for worldly relations, it is the marriage and both are forbidden for us." (Mirza Basheer Ahmad s/o Mirza Ghulam, Kalimat alFasl p.169)
"The point is now quite clear. If it is 'Kufr' (infidelity) to deny the Gracious Prophet (Muhammad pbuh), it must also be 'Kufr' to deny the Promised Messiah, because the Promised Messiah is in no way a separate being from the Gracious Prophet; rather he is the same (Muhammad incarnate). If anyone is not deemed a Kafir for denying the Promised Messiah, then anyone else who denies the Gracious Prophet also cannot be considered a Kafir. How is it possible that denying him in his first birth as Prophet should be regarded as Kufr, but denying him in his (reincarnated) second birth as prophet should not be regarded as Kufr, when, as claimed by the Promised Messiah, his (Mirza's birth as Muhammad incarnate) spiritual attainment is stronger, complete and severe." (Kalimatul Fasl, pages 146-147, as cited in the Review of Religions, dated March-April 1915)
"Any person who believes in Moses but does not believe in Christ, or believes in Christ but does not believe in Muhammad, or believes in Muhammad but does not believe in the Promised Messiah, is not only a Kafir, but a 'pakka' (confirmed) Kafir, and (he is) out of the fold of Islam." (Kalimatul Fasl, page 110, by Mirza Bashir Ahmad, M.A.)
"All such Muslims who did not swear allegiance to the promised Masih (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian), even though they did not hear the name of the Promised Masih, are Kafir and debarred from the fold of Islam." (Aiena-e-Sadaqat, page 35, by Mirza Mahmud Ahmad Qadiani).
Re: Ahmadi-Thread
Here’s a an account of the qadiani propaganda in respect to the Geo TV program on qadiani’s:
so, dear Numb,
where in Quran it is mentioned that Isa (AS) will come again or Imam Mahdi will come?
Kindly let us know because those are two main claims from Mirza Ghulam Qadiyani saahab!
Does this mean that your argument If you want to discuss Islamic matters, the No.1 source is Qur'an, not a Sunnat, not the Hadith. Yes, you can use them to make your proof hand tight, but hat doesn't mean Qur'an has nothing to say, but this what I see here and in the whole world fall flat on the face right there?
I had posted two audio lectures up there. Take your time to listen to them and then bring forth your argument.
Why are you not answering my questions first? Why do I have to answer your questions all the time whereas my question stay unanswered? Wonderful tatic indeed!
My Argument didn't fall flat. You are playing tricky games here, don't tell me I don't see and know about it. Please give me the link to these audio files.
"Except for the CHILDREN OF PROSTITUTE, whose hearts have been sealed by God, everyone else believes in me and has accepted me." (Aina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam, Roohani Khazain vol.5 p.547)
"God has revealed to me that anyone to whom my message has reached and he has not accepted me , he is not a muslim." (Letter of Mirza to Dr. Abdul Hakeem Khan Patialvi)
"I have God's inspiration that he who does not follow you and will not enter your Ba'ith and remain your opponent, he is disobedient of God and His Prophet, Hellish." (Advertisement in M'ayaar-ul-Akhyar by Mirza Ghulam p.8)
"Thus remember as God has informed me, it is forbidden and absolutely forbidden to pray behind any disbeliever and hesitant; but is should be that your imam should be one of you." (Arbaeen No 3, Roohani Khazain vol.17 p.417 footnote)
Some one asked a question and Mirza has replied to it. Both are mentioned in his book, Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi. I quote:
"Question: Huzoor-e-aali has mentioned in thousands of places that it is not at all right to call KAFIR a Kalima-go (one who recites a Kalima) and an Ahle-Qibla. It is quite obvious that except those Momineen who become Kafir by rejecting you, just by not accepting you no one becomes a Kafir. But you write to Abdul Hakeem Khan that anyone who has received my message and he has not accepted me, he is not Muslim. There is contradiction between this statement and the statements in previous books. Earlier in Tiryaq-ul-Quloob etc you had mentioned that no one becomes Kafir by not accepting you and now you are writing that by rejecting me he becomes a Kafir. Answer: This is strange that you consider the person who rejects me and the person who calls me Kafir as two different persons, whereas in the eyes of God he is the same type; because he who does not accept me is because he considers me a fabricator.... apart from this, he who does not accept me, he does not believe in God and His Prophet as well, because there is God's and his Prophet's prophecy regarding me" (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol.22 p.167)
"It is our obligation that we do not consider non-ahmadis as muslims and do not pray behind them, because for us they have rejected one prophet (Mirza Ghulam) of God. This is a religious matter and no one has any right to do anything in it." (Anwar-e-Khilafat, by Mirza Mahmood, Khalifa 2, p.90)
"All muslims who are not included in the initiation of Maseeh Mowood, even if they have not heard the name of Maseeh Mowood, they are Kafir and out of the fold of Islam. I admit that these are my beliefs." (Aina-e-Sadaqat, by Mirza Mahmood, 2nd Khalifa, p.35)
"Every one who accepts Moses but not Eesa or accepts Eesa but not Mohammad or accepts Mohammad but not Maseeh Mowood, he is not only Kafir but a hardened Kafir and is out of the fold of Islam. (Kalimat-alFasl by Mirza Basheer Ahmad s/o Mirza Ghulam p.110)
"Is it permitted to say May God Bless the departed soul, forgive him and send him to Paradise for a person who was not included in Ahmadiyyat?" Answer: "The KUFR of non-Ahmadis is proven by evident signs and it is not permitted to ask for forgiveness for non-believers (KUFFAR)." (Al-Fazl Qadian vol.8, No. 59, 7th Feb 1921)
"Non-Ahmadis are the disbelievers therefore their funeral prayers should not be offered, but if an infant of non-ahmadi dies, why should we not pray his funeral prayer, he is not a disbeliever of Maseeh Mowood? I ask the inquirer, that if this is true than why don't we offer funeral prayer of a Hindu or a Christian child? How many people offer their funeral prayer?" (Anwar-e-Khilafat, Mirza Mahmood, 2nd Khalifa, p.93)
"It is the order of Hazrat Maseeh Mowood and firm order that no ahmadi should give his daughter to non-ahmadi. It is obligatory on every ahmadi to carry it out..... there is great loss in it, besides this marriage is not permitted." (Barakat-e-Khilafat by Mirza Mehmood p.73)
"Our prayers are separate from Non-ahmadis, it is forbidden to give our girls to them, we are stopped to offer their funeral prayers. Now what is left that we can participate with them? There are only two kinds of relations - religious and worldly. For religious relations, it is the gathering for prayers and for worldly relations, it is the marriage and both are forbidden for us." (Mirza Basheer Ahmad s/o Mirza Ghulam, Kalimat alFasl p.169)
"The point is now quite clear. If it is 'Kufr' (infidelity) to deny the Gracious Prophet (Muhammad pbuh), it must also be 'Kufr' to deny the Promised Messiah, because the Promised Messiah is in no way a separate being from the Gracious Prophet; rather he is the same (Muhammad incarnate). If anyone is not deemed a Kafir for denying the Promised Messiah, then anyone else who denies the Gracious Prophet also cannot be considered a Kafir. How is it possible that denying him in his first birth as Prophet should be regarded as Kufr, but denying him in his (reincarnated) second birth as prophet should not be regarded as Kufr, when, as claimed by the Promised Messiah, his (Mirza's birth as Muhammad incarnate) spiritual attainment is stronger, complete and severe." (Kalimatul Fasl, pages 146-147, as cited in the Review of Religions, dated March-April 1915)
"Any person who believes in Moses but does not believe in Christ, or believes in Christ but does not believe in Muhammad, or believes in Muhammad but does not believe in the Promised Messiah, is not only a Kafir, but a 'pakka' (confirmed) Kafir, and (he is) out of the fold of Islam." (Kalimatul Fasl, page 110, by Mirza Bashir Ahmad, M.A.)
"All such Muslims who did not swear allegiance to the promised Masih (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian), even though they did not hear the name of the Promised Masih, are Kafir and debarred from the fold of Islam." (Aiena-e-Sadaqat, page 35, by Mirza Mahmud Ahmad Qadiani).
copy & paste. I applaude you. This is the only thing you can do! Wanna have a proof for my accusations? The Wikipedia Link.
No one did say anything when I destroyed this source. No one even dared to open his mouth. Copy & Paste is common nowadays...Wonderful brother.
Now ANSWER first my QUESTION, if AQ doesn't want to. DID MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD (AS) SPEAK IN KAHOOLAT OR NOT? HE DID, RIGHT!!!!!?
Now ANSWER first my QUESTION, if AQ doesn't want to. DID MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD (AS) SPEAK IN KAHOOLAT OR NOT? HE DID, RIGHT!!!!!?
you did not get it. did you?:)
First tell me if Mirza saahab claims himself to be the same Isa Ibn-e-Maryam that came to Bani Israel or a different one becaue the ayaah is about Isa Ibn-e-Maryam. Please, bring forth the writtings of Mirza saahab.
Now, my question was why would Allah categorically mention about kahoolat?
I never received the answer to my question which I asked first :)
Re: Ahmadi-Thread
First of all, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) not only claimed to be Isa-ibn-e Maryam. He claimed to be Buddha (ra), Krishna (ra), Mussa (AS), Isa (AS) and Muhammad Mustafa (saw). What is meant by that? The Qur'an and the Hadith mention that a Reformer will be born who will be sent to the whole mankind, not only to the Muslims and he will lay the foundation for the Unity of the Ummah.
It means, he will have the attributes of each Prophet. He will be a Universal Reformer. You know that very well AQ. I guess you know or don't you make your own efforts and read only one-sided stories whereas Allah told you and every Muslim to strive for Knowledge? Knowledge is not one sided, it is two-sided.
Now let us come to the point of Kahoolat. Do you have a answer? I'd be grateful if you have, because I could learn what I don't know about yet. Anyway.
I can only share my own opinion, Mussa (as) and Muhammad Mustafa (saw) both talked in Kahoolat. This life is based on tests and Allah tests the maturity of everyone and you can only talk with knowledge and wisdom, another name of maturity. When are you mature? When you have the knowledge and wisdom to bring Allah's message to the world.
Now you answer my questions!
When Muhammad Mustafa (saw) says that all Prophets have passed before him and on other hand the Qur'an says "I have raised (Isa) you into the heaven", isn't this contradicitng to be honest? What is meant by "raised you into the heaven"? Do you know that?
I will give you the answer brother, but please be so kind and answer now my question.
**Psyah Brother,
Thank you for trying to justify your Hadith! Nowhere it is mentioned that mankind will accept Isa (AS) when he comes. Isn't it contradicting that Muhammad Mustafa (saw), our Master was rejected VEHEMENTLY and now mankind will accept Isa (AS) straight away!!!??? This can happen never. NEVER EVER.
**
:( o how you question Allah's Might.
Re: Ahmadi-Thread
^
So Allah's Might is so BIG, that he created mankind who rejected our Master (saw) VEHEMENTLY, BUT WILL ACCEPT ISA (SAW) LICKING HIS FEET. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SEAL OF PROPHETS MY BROTHER, ABOUT THE PERFECT MAN WITH THE PERFECT RELIGION AND YOU WANNA TELL ME THAT ISA (AS) WILL BE ACCEPTED STRAIGHT AWAY BY THE MANKIND OF TODAY WHICH IS SO CRUEL AND BRUTAL THAN THOSE WHICH REJECTED OUR MASTER (SAW)?
OH HOW YOU QUESTION THE RANK OF MUHAMMD MUSTAFA (SAW) :( :( :(
OK GOOD, THINK THAT. I DON'T THINK THAT.
First of all, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) not only claimed to be Isa-ibn-e Maryam. He claimed to be Buddha (ra), Krishna (ra), Mussa (AS), Isa (AS) and Muhammad Mustafa (saw). What is meant by that? The Qur'an and the Hadith mention that a Reformer will be born who will be sent to the whole mankind, not only to the Muslims and he will lay the foundation for the Unity of the Ummah.
It means, he will have the attributes of each Prophet. He will be a Universal Reformer. You know that very well AQ. I guess you know or don't you make your own efforts and read only one-sided stories whereas Allah told you and every Muslim to strive for Knowledge? Knowledge is not one sided, it is two-sided.
Now let us come to the point of Kahoolat. Do you have a answer? I'd be grateful if you have, because I could learn what I don't know about yet. Anyway.
I can only share my own opinion, Mussa (as) and Muhammad Mustafa (saw) both talked in Kahoolat. This life is based on tests and Allah tests the maturity of everyone and you can only talk with knowledge and wisdom, another name of maturity. When are you mature? When you have the knowledge and wisdom to bring Allah's message to the world.
Now you answer my questions!
When Muhammad Mustafa (saw) says that all Prophets have passed before him and on other hand the Qur'an says "I have raised (Isa) you into the heaven", isn't this contradicitng to be honest? What is meant by "raised you into the heaven"? Do you know that?
I will give you the answer brother, but please be so kind and answer now my question.
**Psyah Brother,
Thank you for trying to justify your Hadith! Nowhere it is mentioned that mankind will accept Isa (AS) when he comes. Isn't it contradicting that Muhammad Mustafa (saw), our Master was rejected VEHEMENTLY and now mankind will accept Isa (AS) straight away!!!??? This can happen never. NEVER EVER. **
Peace Numb
Firstly, to avoid confusion from the beginning I have been claiming Mahdi and Isa (AS) as two different persons.
As for Isa (AS) not being accepted. That is not part of the signs of the second coming. If in the second coming Isa (AS) is supposed to experience hesitance from the people to accept him then please provide a reference for this.
For sure Isa (AS) has gone through all of that before in his first coming. This ummah is going to be different and his (AS) role will be different.
Think about this ... some time in future ... people are in engaged in the middle of warfare, they have by now slowly grown to accept and support Mahdi. They are with him !!! He is their leader ... when Mahdi says something people will follow ... Dajjal appears and much bloodshed is being done. Some of the most dazzling things are seen ... then one day ... at the time of prayer either Asr or Fajr ... Coming down from the skies supported by the shoulders of two angels in the appearance of men shall be Isa (AS) his hair shall be lank and complexion whitish-red and he will be offered to lead the prayer. But he will decline and pray behind the Imam.
This Isa (AS) will make people Muslim in masses. Some statements say that his breath or line of sight shall be enough to spread truth of Islam. And the Muslims will not oppose the Imam who has acknowledged the Messiah.
So in all this I don't understand where you want the rejection of Christ to occur ... Things will be too clear for him not to be accepted. I think you are mixing up the advent of Isa (AS) with Mahdi.
That is the problem. Everything in Qadiyanism ends up metaphorical in nature when investigated.
There is no mention of that reformer in Quran as far as I know. Can you provide the reference of your claim please?
I have already given the answer in my first post about Kahoolat. Let me write it again.
Everyone talks in Kahoolat… Why would Allah mention it specifically for Isa :as: …
because he was raised up in heaven at the age of 32 or 33…
Kahoolat comes at the age of 40…
So Allah tells us that the Isa :as: who is being mentioned in QURAN (not anyone like Mirza saahab who claimed to be one), the same Isa:as: will talk at the age of 40… which perfectly aligns with the coming of Isa:as: in ahaadeeth that he will come back and live and attain the kahoolat.
Absolutely wrong translation.
The actual translation of that ayah is Many Prophets have passed before …
The ayah does not say ‘All’
Re: Ahmadi-Thread
I love it when AQ discusses ahmadiyyat and runs away quite quickly when confronted about his own beliefs :D
if you remember, we had discussed this kahoolat business in another thread where you mysteriously vanished :)
the onus of proof is on you to prove that Jesus was raised up to the heavens before the age of kahoolat and thus needs to come back to talk at that age, though he'd be way past any normal classification of age for humans :D
the main difference between us and non-ahmadis is the coming of Jesus... all the other differences stem from this main point. If it is proven by ahmadis that Jesus lived a normal human life and died a normal human death, then we have no choice but to take all the ahadith on his second coming as metaphors. If on the other hand the non-ahmadis can prove that he was raised up to the heavens, then we'll admit that he has to come back physically and all the prophesies are literal.
Re: Ahmadi-Thread
Actually neither the word "many" nor "all" is used. The word by word translation would be 'have passed before him prophets'
Though whatever translation you do of this verse cannot be any different from the verse of Surah Al-Maida (75/76) that uses the same words with reference to Hazrat Isa (as). So if you think 'many' should be added so that there is a loop hole to cover someone still alive, you need to leave the same loop hole for prophets before Hazrat Isa (as) that one of them might still be alive somewhere.
The real argument is in the next part of the verse. The non-Ahmadis should translate it as:
"And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, (many) Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain (or be raised to heaven with his body like Isa), will you turn your back on your heels?"
Peace Numb
Firstly, to avoid confusion from the beginning I have been claiming Mahdi and Isa (AS) as two different persons.
As for Isa (AS) not being accepted. That is not part of the signs of the second coming. If in the second coming Isa (AS) is supposed to experience hesitance from the people to accept him then please provide a reference for this.
For sure Isa (AS) has gone through all of that before in his first coming. This ummah is going to be different and his (AS) role will be different.
Think about this ... some time in future ... people are in engaged in the middle of warfare, they have by now slowly grown to accept and support Mahdi. They are with him !!! He is their leader ... when Mahdi says something people will follow ... Dajjal appears and much bloodshed is being done. Some of the most dazzling things are seen ... then one day ... at the time of prayer either Asr or Fajr ... Coming down from the skies supported by the shoulders of two angels in the appearance of men shall be Isa (AS) his hair shall be lank and complexion whitish-red and he will be offered to lead the prayer. But he will decline and pray behind the Imam.
This Isa (AS) will make people Muslim in masses. Some statements say that his breath or line of sight shall be enough to spread truth of Islam. And the Muslims will not oppose the Imam who has acknowledged the Messiah.
So in all this I don't understand where you want the rejection of Christ to occur ... Things will be too clear for him not to be accepted. I think you are mixing up the advent of Isa (AS) with Mahdi.
You know the meaning of Mahdi? "The Guided One". Why would Isa (AS) come then? What will be Isa's (AS) role? Can you please clarify these points?
Re: Ahmadi-Thread
I love when it is proved from Quran and then various ahaadeeth that Isa (AS) was raised bodily alive, but chacha keeps beating his trumpet, then, what is the use of wasting energy on something that has been told to him already.