Re: Ahle bait
just pointed it out cuz shiaas wrongly use the words to prove something that it does not mean....
Re: Ahle bait
Proof that Hadrat Muhammad :saw: had four daughters is also present in shia books, with hadith from aaima like Imam Baqir and Imam Jaffer sadique .
Reference can be made to following books
1-Nahjul Balagha commentry by ali naqi named faiz ul islam
2-Assol e Kafi
3-Hayat ul quloob
4-Tafseer majmaul bayan
I dunno if reference to shia book has been made or not as i am not following this thread .
Also as far as mubahila was concerned,mubihla took place i thinkk in 10 hijri and by then all other daughters of Hadrat :saw: had died.
Wasalam
Re: Ahle bait
^ Yes Ibn sadique has quoted references from the books u have mentioned.
I have been following this debate with quite an interest. In the end it is so one-sided and the absence of response from the Shia side just proves that they know what the truth is but just cannot accept it.
The Shia keep on harping that they love the family of Rasoolallah (pbuh) but the reality is that they love the family of Ali bin Abi Talib (may allah be pleased with him) along with the Rasoolallah (pbuh).
If they really did love family of the Rasoolallah (pbuh), they would have to love the whole family and then there would not have been this type of resistance to accept others as family of Rasoolallah (pbuh).
In fact this sudden silence from the Shia side says a lot about their quandary.
As Ibn Sadique says that he has loaded against them all the evidence from their own books and yet they do not want to believe.
Btw great job Ibn Sadique. Jazakallah khayraan
Re: Ahle bait
sudden silence? ma mooli has already gave you a long explanation..whats the point if you are not going to listen to it?
Did our Imams (a) come and tell ibne sadique directly? as she explained there is a lot of stuff in our books..some say they came with Bibi Khadija (a) and some say they were Prophet Mohummad (pbuh&up) daughters...no one can be 100 % sure...thats where we stand.
bila waja thread ko lamba kiya jaa raha hai jaisay zindagi main aur koi kaam hi nahi hai..obviously we love them even if they came with Bibi Khadija (a) because she was Prophet's (pbuh&up) beloved wife
Re: Ahle bait
If they really did love family of the Rasoolallah (pbuh), they would have to love the whole family and then there would not have been this type of resistance to accept others as family of Rasoolallah (pbuh).
That's not the yardstick used by shias and shouldn't be yardstick that you use, regardless of how many daughters Rasool Allah had you should only love those that deserved it. I am sure you love Prophet loot and Prophet Nooh, but do you love their wives as well, who are clearely called Jahanumi in Quran.
Shia's have a lot of riwayats, ahadith indicating the true status of Bibi Fatima and say even if prophet did have 4 daughters we do not have similar number of ahadith and riwayats about their status hence if we do not have the same kind of love and respect for them there is no need to get upset over it??
Why is it their our Love for Bibi Fatima and certain family members of Rasool's family bothering you so much.
Yes there were other members as well, but we view them in differenet light as our history of islam is quiet differnet then what you are used to hearing.
Re: Ahle bait
No brother Sheraz, none of your Imams came to me and told me anything directly, though it would have been my pleasure if the hidden imam had contacted. 
Alas that too did not happen.
The great controversy about how many daughters the Prophet (saw) had is only limited to your hadith books. The reasons for this controversy are also well known.
In my posts I was not talking about the material in your hadith books. I was referring to the statements made by your respected Ulemah. Obviously they have gone through all the hadith books and statemenst of your imams and arrived at a decision.
They have stated that the Prophet (saw) had four daughters only after having referred to all the material at their disposal.
I am sure that their intentions were not just that they want to make the Sunnis happy.
Read the following thread where Shia Aalim advises fellow Shia how to treat narrations from the Imams.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=4025504&postcount=64
Also I had given links to two books where it is clearly stated in no uncertain terms that the Prophet (saw) had 4 daughters.
The funny thing is that these books are made available to read online by the most prominent Shia website.
And both of these books are published in Qum and Teheran. There is no mention of any controversy.
Beacons of Light : Muhammad, the Prophet, and Fatimah, the Radiant
A Partial translation of I’lamu 'l Wara bi Alami 'l-Huda by Abu Ali al Fadl ibn al Hasan ibn al Fadl at Tabarsi (c. 468/1076 - 548/1154)
**Published by: World Organization For Islamic Services Tehran, Iran **First Edition 1986/1406
http://www.al-islam.org/beacons/
Fatima 'a] The Gracious by Abu Muhammad Ordoni
**Published by: Ansariyan Publications Qum, The Islamic Republic of Iran **
http://www.al-islam.org/gracious/title.htm
This only applies for the Shia. Keep us out this self created confusion.
Can you enlighten us about the following ayahs of the Quran.
Allah (swt) addressing the Prophet (saw) says:
O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 33:59
Qur’aanic word “Banaatuka” which means “your daughters” if it was one daughter only, it would be “Bintuka”
Allah (saw) has clearly stated that Prophet (saw) had more that one daughter.
Brother we are not discussing about the status of Lady Fatimah (ra). We have enough hadith about it.
I think if the Prophet (saw) had not married his two daughters (May Allah be pleased with them) to Hz. Uthman bin Affan (ra) their status as Prophet’s (saw) daughters would have been a non-issue. That’s the crux of this whole matter.
I think I have said a lot in this thread and will only be forced to come back if at all a need really (really, really) arises.
Re: Ahle bait
***“I am leaving among you two khalifas, the Qur’an and my Ahl-ul-bait, they will never become separate until they meet me at the pool.”
**Hadith-e-Thaqalayn, the Two Weighty Things, as recorded by Al Suyuti in Tafsir Durre Manthur, Vol. 2, page 60. (sunni book)*"
This is what Muawiya wrote in reply to a critical letter by Muhammad bin Abu Bakr
**“We and your father during the lifetime of the Prophet, used to consider the right of Ibn Abi Talib binding upon us, and his excellence was well above ours. Despite this when Allah chose for the Prophet what he had in store for him?He took him to Himself. Then your father and his Faruq were the first to snatch it and oppose him, they both worked together on this?If it was injustice, then your father founded it and we are his partners. We followed his guidance and imitated his action”.
***Waq’at Sifeen by Minqari p118-120 (Cairo edition 1962); *
*Ansab al Ashraf by Baladhuri Volume 2 page 393-397 (Beirut edition 1974); *
Masudi Muruj ud Dhuhab Vol 3 page 197 - 201 (Beirut 1969 edition)
Please look at the above quotes from your books authored by your respected Ulemah. Obviously they have gone through all the hadith books and statemenst of your khulafas and arrived at a decision.
They have stated that the quran and ahlulbayt are the two weighty things left by Prophet only after having referred to all the material at their disposal.
They have stated that the quran and ahlulbayt are the two weighty things left by Prophet only after having referred to all the material at their disposal.
They have stated that Abu Bakr considered **right of Ibn Abi Talib binding upon him, and his excellence was well above his own **only after having referred to al the material at their disposal
I am sure that their intentions were not just that they want to make the Shias happy.
Brother Ibn Sadique Please watch the following video, your respected ullama states that tabbara karna chiaya (and what Hz Omar did after death of Rasool Allah) after having reffered to all the material at his disposal
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do…81739160070561
Care to comment brother??
Re: Ahle bait
Curious One Please let's not divert the thread somewhere else. At present the main topic of the thread is about the number of Prophet (saw)'s daughters (May Allah (swt) be pleased with them) so stick to it.
Nice try though :)
[QUOTE]
Please look at the above quotes from your books authored by your respected Ulemah. Obviously they have gone through all the hadith books and statemenst of your khulafas and arrived at a decision.
[/QUOTE]
Masha’Allah! Care to name the ‘our respected ’ Ulemah who authored the books?
If by chance you in your ignorance are referring to **Minqari, Baladuri and Masudi **better think again.
These guys are historians.
Minqari and Masudi are known to be Shias; about Baladuri I am not sure.
Please differentiate between historians and ulemah.
You missed to answer something I had asked in the last post and I am repeating it again.
[QUOTE]
Can you enlighten us about the following ayahs of the Quran.
Allah (swt) addressing the Prophet (saw) says:
O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 33:59
Qur'aanic word "Banaatuka" which means "your daughters" if it was one daughter only, it would be "Bintuka"
Allah (saw) has clearly stated that Prophet (saw) had more that one daughter.
Please respond.
[/QUOTE]
Please stick to the current debate - about number of daughters the Prophet (saw) had. You can open all the threads to discuss other issues to your heart's content.
(The video link does not work) - and as I said I shall only discuss about the number of daughters the Prophet (saw) had and no other side issues.
Re: Ahle bait
Salaams everyone,
This is a very interesting discussion :)
I am no scholar, but I believe that "your daughters" does not have to be daughters in a literal sense of the world. They include all female direct descendants, such as grand children, great grand children etc
A similar example in the Quran is Bani Israeel (Children of Israel)
All of Prophet Yacoub's (Israel) children are known as the Bani Israel, even though not all of them were his actual "children" but the people who descended from him.
WasSalaam
Sadiq
Re: Ahle bait
^ tum logon ki bhee samajh nahin lagti....
when it suits u, it has a specific meaning, and when it suits u it has a general meaning....
Re: Ahle bait
As Salaamu 'Alaiykum,
The only one of the all the blessed daughters of Rasul-Allah (saws) to have survived to have a lineage which is still traceable to this day, is Sayyidatina Umm al-Mu'mineen Fatimah az-Zahra bint Rasul-Allah (as), who as the wife of Sayyidina Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (as), who bore two sons, Sayyidina Imam Hassan (as) and Sayyidina Imam Husayn (as).
Sahih al-Muslim reads:
Book 031, Number 5955:
'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came **Hasan* b. 'Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Husain **and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came **Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household (Ya Ahl' al-Bayt), and purify you (thorough purifying).*
Please notice Rasul-Allah's (saws) words, as reported by Lady A'isha (ra'a) who was one of Rasul-Allah's (saws) wives, notice especially the very last sentence, and now read this ayat of Qur'an please, and ask yourself why Lady A'isha (ra'anha) would narrate this hadith of Rasul-Allah (saws) is the Ahl' al-Bayt were anyone other than Rasul-Allah (saws), Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Husayn (alaiyhimis-salaam). Now here is the ayat of the Qur'an:
And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Apostle. **Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.
**Qur'an (Surah 33, Ayat 33)
And here is the last sentence from the above hadith from a Sunni book of Hadith:
"Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household (Ya Ahl' al-Bayt), and purify you (thorough purifying)."*
*Sayyidina Rasul-Allah (saws) was given this commandement from Allah subhanahu wa ta 'ala and he relayed this message to his family, as his only surviving child was Lady Fatima az-Zahra (as) who bore children and to this day has descendancy along with Sayyidina Imam Ali (as), as lineage is Paternal, and Rasul-Allah (saws) still named Imam Ali (as) as part of his Ahl' al-Bayt. This is clear brothers and sisters. We are Sunni's we accept them to be Ahl' al-Bayt, but we do not commit Rafd (cursing) upon the first 3 of the Khulafa ar-Rashidin.
To add my two cents on this whole issue, from what I briefly studied on this subject from around the world the last 20 plus years, my little knowledge has brought be to this conclusion. The first three Khalifs Sayyidina Abu Bakr, Sayyidina Umar, and Sayyidina Uthman (ra'anhum) were in power before Imam Ali (as) because this is the qadr of Allah subhanahu wa ta 'ala.
If Imam Ali (as) had taken the leadership first, the people would come against him severely, and the spread of Islam from al-Maghrib (North Africa) all the way to China would not have taken place. For the mercy of all of humanity, he, Imam Ali (as) was kept to #4 historically because even if you look at the Khilafat of Imam Ali (as) when he took power, he was faced with the worst and most brutal opposition as compared to all the three other of the Khulafa ar-Rashidin. The Quraysh were proud and had enmity against the Banu Hashim amongst them and this was seen clearly through the actions and behaviour of Yazid bin Mu'awiya who under his leadership, had Imam Husayn (as) brutally murdered and his companions around him and many of his family members travelling with him, and then had the blessed head of Imam Husayn (as) delivered to Damascus where Yazid the drunkard and fornicator poked fun at it.
We must not, whether Sunni or Shi'a, create differences amongst each other in regards to such things, but always remember to love and respect Rasul-Allah (saws) if we cannot come together on other issues, keep love for him (saws), his blessed family (alaiyhimis-salaam) and his pious companions (radi'Allahu anhum), and maybe inshallah we can put our differences aside for a moment and learn a few things from one another. This is the only way we can make progress, when both sides are ready to smile at each other instead of throwing hatred back and forth, we're all Ummat-tur-Rasul-lillah Sal' Allahu 'alaiyhi wa ala alihi wa sallam.
Wassalaam.
Re: Ahle bait
For more information here to see clearly that Ahl’ al-Bayt refers to Sayyidina Rasul-Allah (saws), and Sayyidina Imam Ali, Sayyidatina Umm al-Mu’mineen Fatima az-Zahra, Sayyidina Imam Hasan, Sayyidina Imam Husayn (alaiyhimis-salaam), for all to read, here is the compilation of ahadith of proofs by Shaykh Jalaluddin Abdur-Rahman as-Suyuti (r) in his book, Ahya-il Mayyit Be Fazaile Ahle Bayt clearly declares that the Ahl’ al-Bayt (alaiyhimis-salaam) are Rasul-Allah (saws), Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husayn (alaiyhimis-salaam). Might I add, that Shaykh al-Suyuti (r) is a classical sunni scholar, here is his famous collective work:
Re: Ahle bait
Ahmad bin Hanbal says in his Musnad:
Aswad bin ‘Amir has related from Abī Isrā’īl, i.e. Ismā‘īl bin Abī Ishāq Malaie, from ‘Atiyyah from Abī Sa‘īd who quotes the Prophet as saying:
“Innī tārikun fīkum al-thaqalayn, ahaduhumā akbaru min al-akhar, Kitaballāh hablun mamdudun min al-samā’-i ilā al-arz wa ‘itratī Ahl-i Baytī, wa annahumā lan yaftaraqā hattā yaridā ‘alayya al-hawz”
(I am leaving among you two precious things, one of which is greater than the other. The Book of Allah which is the rope extending from the sky to the earth and my progeny my Ahl al-Bayt. And the two will never part with each other until they return to me at the pool (of kawthar in paradise).
-Musnad, ibn Hanbal, vol. 3, p. 14.
The Hadith al-Thaqalayn has been recorded extensively in the Musnad,
e.g. vol. 3, pp. 17, 26 & 59; vol. 4, p. 367; vol. 5, pp. 181, 189, 190.
Something to think about...Rasul-Allah (saws) as recorded by Imam Ahmed ibn Hanal (r) says that he has left behind for us al-Qur'an al-Karim and his (saws) Ithra (progeny)....
Things are not as clear cut as they seem now anymore do they? Some people claiming that Ahl' al-Bayt refers to all of Rasul-Allah's (saws) daughters and wives (May Allah subhanahu wa ta 'ala be pleased with them all), yet the only ones clearly identified as Rasul-Allah's (saws) Ahl' al-Bayt throughout all of his (saws) sayings, are himself (saws), Ali, Fatima, Hasan, and Husayn (alaiyhimis-salaam), and also Sayyidina Salman al-Farisi (as).
If anyone does claim that Ahl' al-Bayt refers to anyone other than the most blessed ones mentioned above, please show it as there are many whom I've seen here who always ask for proofs from others and even when they get them they cannot accept it, well now the ball is in your court.
I'll wait for your proofs from the Qur'an and Sunnah where the names of Ahl' al-Bayt (alaiyhimis-salaam) are mentioned for anyone other than those blessed ones named above.
Jazak-Allah khairun.
Re: Ahle bait
^ thank you for your input :) reading others it feels like those who calls them selves suni does not have any clue how to dissown Ali his wife and sons from thier part of history, and those known as Shia does not know how to stress it more to make them (suni) kill and hate whatever is left there if any.
To shia memebers: I would like to ask: If you have so much love for ahl e bait, and wanted them to be leaders, can you please give me any recent example from your history say Iran; when ahl e bait were in power? Now when you have Ahmadi Najat(spell) as president is he from Ahle bait???
(Just curious)
Re: Ahle bait
It was not an attempt to divert, just an attempt to show you that just because something is mentioned in a book(which I am not sure if it is as I never read what you have mentinoed, but still) doesn’t mean its accurate, thats is exactly why we do not refer to them as sahih books. Your response to all the incidence I mentioned should be that they might be in the books but it doesnt prove that they are accruate.
-
Even better who do you think is more suitable to authenticate an event in history?
-
Ullama have knowledge of deen, where as historian are more reliable to verify whether an event took place or not.
-
Can you please provide some reference that they were all shias, and what about Baladuri?
-
You mentoined the ones that you consider shias, but what about the hadith from by *Al Suyuti in Tafsir Durre Manthur, *you cojmpletely ignored it, is it because you had no response or is that author also shia??
OK your line of approace proves that he had more than one daughter, now stick to the same reasoning in this verse as well.
Quran 3:61
Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and ourselves and yourselves, then let us be earnest in prayer, and invoke the curse of Allah on the liars.
It is related by Soad Ibne Waqas that: "When this verse was revealed, the Holy Prophet sent for Hazrat Ali, Janab-e-Fatima, Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain and prayed to God thus: “O My God! These are the very Ahl-ul-Bait of mine!” (Sahih Muslim. Vol. 1, Sahih Tirmizi.)
Now based on your approach to the previous ayat, Rasool Allah should have taken more than one woman with him but he only took Bibi Fatima, did he not beleive in all the other woman (including Bibi Ayesha) as his women, or did he not believe all the other females of the time as women? Can you please clarify.
Please note that I addressed every single question you had, now can you do the same for me.
-
Who is more suited to authenticate an event in history?? Ullama or historians?
-
Why did prophet not take more than one woman with him? Did he not consider them worthy of being reffered to as “our women”?
Can you comment on this as well.
Re: Ahle bait
Imam Fakhruddin Razi writes in his Tafseer-e-Kabeer (volume 2): "When this verse was revealed to the Holy Prophet, the Christians of Najran accepted the challenge of 'Mubahala' and the Holy Prophet took along with him Imam Hussain, Imam Hasan, Janab-e-Fatima and Hazrat Ali to the field of Mubahala."
Re: Ahle bait
What exactly did you want me to comment on it about?
I'm stepping away from the computer for a while, please let me know what you wanted me to answer and I will respond shortly bro.
Re: Ahle bait
Not you sir I was addressing Ibn Sadique.
Might I add your post is quiet informative and your approach very straight forward and sensible.
Re: Ahle bait
No prob bro I thought you quoted me to ask me something. We'll wait for ibn Sadique's response.
Re: Ahle bait
i can say the same about tum log…does he have a point or not???
Jazakallah Khairun ya sultan e madina brother :k: