Re: Ahle bait
What words?
Re: Ahle bait
not all of them…
sahih bukhari is far more authentic than sahih muslim, and i dont take bukhari as 100% accurate so the matter is more uncertain when it comes to muslim…
plus, if i see something in muslim and there is a hadith in bukhari which suggests otherwise, i think i’d trust bukhari more, as wud many scholars…
Re: Ahle bait
plus, if i see something in muslim and there is a hadith in bukhari which suggests otherwise, i think i'd trust bukhari more, as wud many scholars....
sahih bukhari is far more authentic then muslim??..thats something new..before a user "ammaar" said that is not the case..so i guess its pick and choose..if a hadith praises the Ahle bait then I will stick with a book that does not..bukhari hardly has any hadith praising the Holy Ahle bait so i am sure you'd like that
Re: Ahle bait
^ if u think bukhari has no hadith praising ahl-e-bait (ra), then i think u have yet not read bukhari....
and i think its repeated a million times even on GS that bukhari is the most authentic book after Quran....
so there is nothing new in that....
maybe a lapse of memory on ur part....
Re: Ahle bait
imam bukhari's most popular book on hadith 'sahih al-bukhari' is the largest collection of the most sahih ahadith in one book, it is not the most authentic book after the qur'an.
The Qur'an is unquestionable in it being 100 percent authentic, and it is incomparable to any other book.
Re: Ahle bait
It says in 'sahih al-bukhari' that Hadhrat Abu Talib (ra) brain is boiling in hellfire and that he has the least punishment?
Do you really expect Muslims who are lovers of ahl' al-bayt (alaiyhimis-salaam) to believe this hadith, just because it is in 'sahih al-bukhari'?
Re: Ahle bait
It can be true.......depends....who and how many times it has been narrated.
the matawatar chain and common sense
but does it really matter........for a common muslim to know about this hadith's authenticity.....how does it affect our believes?
Re: Ahle bait
Ya_Sultan_e_Madina Enlighten us which book you consider to be “the most authentic book after the qur’an.”
If for you it is not Sahih Bukhari then you views are at variance to that of all the Sunnis of various schools of thought.
Brother, no one doubts that for the moment.
Let’s hear from you which hadith book you consider to be most authentic after the Quran
Re: Ahle bait
Brother “mjaffery” asked me to post this as he was having problems posting on this forum
Re: Ahle bait
Brother Das Reich You are an intelligent guy. Please tell Mr. “mjaffery” to refer to the following links:
These are shia websites which have stated without any doubt that Prophet (saw) had four daughters.
http://www.al-islam.org/beacons/
http://www.al-islam.org/gracious/5.htm
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=4004643&postcount=10
Below is link to shia arabic website and the page has been kindly translated by brother armughal
children of khadija from the prophet (saw)
*642- alsaffar, on his authority has narrated from imam albaqar that the Prophet (saw) bore from khadija (ra): al-qasim and al-tahir, and umm-kulthum and ruqaya and zainab and fatema
643- alsadooq has narrated from imam jaafar alsadeq that the Prophet (saw) had children from khadija (ra): al-qasim and al-tahir, who is abdullah, and umm-kulthum and ruqayya, and zainab and fatema
644- alkalini has said that she (khadija) gave birth to the following before prophethood (of Muhammad (saw)): al-qasim, and ruqaya and zaynab and umm-kulthum, and after the prophethood to al-tayyab, and al-tahir and fatema. it is also narrated that no child was born from khadija after prophethood except fatmea, and al-tahir and al-tayab were born before prophethood
645- sheikh altabrasi has said that the first time she got pregnant, she gave birth to abdullah bin muhammad, who is al-tayyab and al-tahir, and people are mistaken when they say that she gave birth to four boys, alqasim, and abdullah, and al-tayab and al-taher, but the truth is that she gave birth two two boys. the second was al-qasim. and it is said that al-qasim was the eldest and it is from him that he took his kunyat (abulqasim) and four daughters: zaynab, ruqaya, umm kulthum and fatema
646- ibn shahr aashoob has said about his children, from khadija: al-qasim and abdulla, who are al-taher and al-tayyab, and four daughters: zaynab, ruqaya, umm kulthum and fatema. and it is in “alanwaar” and “alkashf” and “allam’a” and the book of albalatheri that zaynab and ruqayya were his step-daughters from hajsh, and al-qasim and al-tayab died in infancy in makkah. al-qasim lived only for 7 nights.
647- almajlisi has narrated from alkazeroorni woh narrates from ibn abbas that: the first one that was born to rasul Allah (saw) in MAkkah before the prophethood was al-qasim, and he took his kuniya from him, then was born zaynab, then ruqayya, then fatema, then umm-kulthum, then after Islam came, abdullah was born to him, and he was called al-tayyab and al-taher, and the mother of all these was khadija bint khuwailed, and the first who died among his children was al-qasim, and then died abdullah in makkah. al-aas bin wael al-sahami says that after this he had no children, and Allah revelaed the verse: inna shaaneaka huwa alabtar
648- and it is said that from the male children he had three, and from daughters he had four. first was zaynab, then al-qasim, then umm-kulthum, then fatema, then ruqayya, then abdullah, who is al-tayab and al-taher
649- and ibn ishaq says: (khadija) gave birth from the Prophet (saw) to al-qasim, and from him he took his kunyat, and al-taher, and al-tayyab, and zaynab, and ruqaya and umm-kulthum and fatema. and al-qasem and al-tayeb and al-taher all died in the time of jahiliya, and the daughters all of them saw Islam, and became muslims and did the hijrah
650- and al-yaqoobi says: (khadija) gave birth from the prophet (saw) before his prophethood to: al-qasim, and ruqaya, and zaynab and umm-kulthum. and after his prophethood to abdullah (who is called al-tayeb and al-taher because he was born in Islam) and fatema
651- altabari narrates from hisham alkalbi who narrates from his father that he said: (khadija) gave birth from the prophet(saw) to eight: al-qasem, and la-tayeb, and al-taher and abdullah, and zaynab and ruqaya and umm-kulthum and fatema
652- and al-masoodi says: born to him, from khadija was alqasim, and from him he took his kunyat, and he was the eldest of his children, and ruqaya and umm kulthum. and born to him after prophethood were abdullah, and he is al-tayeb and al-taher because he was born in Islam, and fatema *
Let Mr. “mjaffery” know that above has narrations from Shia Imams, and classical Shia scholars
Ask him [Mr. “mjaffery”] if he is prepared to ‘rubbish’ the Shia websites and the narrations of the Imams and sayings of the eminent shia scholars just to satisfy his own personal feelings “How things should have been.”
It will be interesting to know on what basis he rejects the Imams statements.
Could he also address the following question raised by me in my posts earlier?
Allah (swt) addressing the Prophet (saw) says:
O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 33:59
Qur’aanic word “Banaatuka” which means “your daughters” if it was one daughter only, it would be “Bintuka”
Allah (saw) has clearly stated that Prophet (saw) had more that one daughter.
Brother Das Reich, As a Shia it is your duty to a fellow shia to advise him of the ‘wrongs’ of rejecting what the imams have said, after all to you both they are infallibles and know everything that is there to know.
Re: Ahle bait
Brother! According to Quran, your statement is not correct.
It is true Ahle-Baat means "Ghar Waalay" Who are Ghar Waalay?
1- Nafs=Souls
2- Women
3- Sons
These are Ghar Waalay- Right? In Ayaat Mubaheela- Allah told Prophet Muhammad (saww) to bring " his nafs, his women and his sons.
Now see the list- Those were only Ghar Waalay. Prophet (saww) had wives but no wife was included.
2- Ayaat Tatheer is right after the mentioning of prophet's wives but ask any arabic knowing scholar that the arabic grammer is different to females and males and females only. Ayaat Tatheer includes Males and females. So this ayaat is not related to wives of Muhammad (saww) only.
3- Allah says in Quran again and again-Tafak-e-roon- Ponder- Ponder on our Salaat. In Salaat, Salwaat is on ALE-Muhammad (as) NOT ON AHLE-BAAT. Now you figure out who is ALE( PROGENY-CHILDREN)
Best regards.
Manzoor H. Jaffery
if tranlsated into urdu, it wud very simply mean "ghar waali" and we all know who ghar wali refers to....
Re: Ahle bait
mjaffery – You have very conveniently (for yourself) ignored my response to your previous post (posted via brother Das Reich.)
Just refer to my post http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=4040206&postcount=90
It has narrations from your infallible imams (ra) and eminent classical scholars confirming that Prophet (saw) had four daughters from Hz. Khadijah (ra).
That means **REAL SISTERS **for Hz. Faitmah (ra). And yet you are in a complete denial mode.
That’ what you said:
So that is the main reason for denying that Prophet (saw) had no other REAL SON-IN-LAW.
Only one word for your attitude – pathetic.
You have no regard for the narrations from your infallible imams (ra) and eminent classical scholars. You have dismissed their narrations without any regard.
Brother Das Reich, You posted for Mr. mjaffery, do you really think that post made any sense given that it is proved beyond doubt that Prophet (saw) had four daughters?
It will be interesting to see how you too react to the narrations from your infallible imams (ra) and eminent classical scholars.
From all the shia brothers and sisters here only **Texan_Dude **had the guts to grudgingly accept the possibility that the Prophet (saw) had four daughters.
And he was the last person I expected such agreement even if grudging one.
Brother **ravage **the following post of yours does make a lot of sense.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=3888169&postcount=1
If Shias cannot accept that other real daughters of the Prophet (saw) are part and parcel of his blessed family, what chance do his wives have of being accepted as part of his family? Understandably, Zero.
Re: Ahle bait
CAN SOMEBODY COMMENT ON THIS TOO.....
"In Surah Ahzaab (33rd Chapter of the Quran) it is said33:59)
"O Nabi! Tell your wives, daughters and the believing women that they should let down upon them overgarments (when they come out of their homes) This is more proper so that they may be recognised (as noble women) and Allah is ever forgiving, merciful.
Allah barik feeh.
Re: Ahle bait
u dont even need to go to an arabic scholar, just a normal person who knows arabic will tell u that when the word ahl is used, it is used with male pronouns…
just like nafs is always used with a female, so when Allah says in the first verse of Quran that He created all beings from one nafs, and created her spouse from her, does not mean that the first creation was a female, but just cuz the word nafs is always used with female pronouns, it may seem so to someone who is not so familiar with arabic…
similarly ahl is used with male pronouns…
Re: Ahle bait
.
Brother Ibn Sadique as I said before my knowledge on this subject is very limited and I cannot contribute anything to this discussion.
Re: Ahle bait
Brother Das Reich I think you have opted for the easy way out. 
But, frankly speaking there is now way out for you.
You and others cannot hedge away from this by saying that “my knowledge on this subject is very limited”.
Your knowledge can only be improved if you read the books of people you deem reliable and knowledgeable.
In my previous posts I have provided you with Narrations of **Imam Muhammad al Baqir (ra) & Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (ra) **that the Prophet (saw) had FOUR DAUGHTERS .
You know better than me the weight the narrations of the imams carry for you.
Then you have the confirmation from the most eminent Shia classical scholars, who are considered towers of knowledge among the Shia.
Just for the benefit for the viewers I am giving few notes on Shia Scholars who have categorically stated that Prophet (saw) FOUR DAUGHTERS.
The author of al-Kafi was thiqat al-Islam, Abu Ja’far Muhammad b. Ya’qub b. Ishaq al-Kulaini al-Razi. He died in 328 A.H. or 329 A.H. (939 or 940 A.D.). Very little is known of his life and there is some dispute as to whether the nisba by which he is known is al-Kulaini or al-Kulini. However, it is agreed that it refers to a village in Iran, Kulain or Kulin; both were villages there.
http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/kulayni-howard.htm
Shaykh Abu Ali Fadl b. al-Hasan b. al-Fadl al-Tabarsi, the author of Majma’ al-Bayan, the work under study in the present volume, was a Shi’ite scholar and theologian of repute. He wrote many valuable works on theology. Majma’ al-Bayan is the most important of these all, and it is on this work that his fame rests. The Majma’ al-Bayan enjoys wide acceptance even among scholars who do not subscribe to Shi’ite views. Tabarsi is considered to be “moderate in his Shi’ism unlike others,” far from fanaticism, nor can he be reproached for cursing any of the Companions of the Prophet. This book gives a brief survey of his biography, studies his tafsir, works and discusses his theological views on special issues.
http://www.ikitab.com/index.php3?menu=describe&table=Book&cat=Books&id=3580&language=&associate=
**Al-Shaikh al-Saduq **is the title given to **Abu Ja’far Muhammad b. 'Ali ibn Babawaih al Qummi. **He was the leading traditionist of his time (4th Century A.H.) and one of the most outstanding traditionists of Shi’ite Islam. He earned the title of al-Shaikh al-Saduq on account of his great learning and his reputation for truthfulness. It is a title which he also shares with his father.
http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/saduq-howard.htm
**Shaikh al-ta’ifa (the teacher of the community) Abu Ja’far Muhammad b. al-Hasan b. 'Ali b. al-Hasan al-Tusi **was born in Tus in Iran in the year 385 of the Islamic era. His career marks the climax of a very great period in Shi’ite Islamic scholarship and learning. It was during this period that Shi’ite scholars were without rivals in the Islamic world. Al-Shaikh al-Tusi’s teachers included **al-Shaikh al-Mufid, and the two brothers, members of Ahl al-bait and both outstanding scholars, al-Sharif al-Murtada and al-Sharif al-Radi. **
http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/tusi-howard.htm
Mohammad Baqer Majlesi, (1616 - 1689) known as Allameh Majlesi, was a famous Iranian Shia cleric of the Safavid era.
Born in Isfahan in 1616, his father was a cleric of Islamic jurisprudence. By the age of 14, he gained certification of “rawāyat” from Mullasadra to teach. He is said to have completed studies under 21 masters (ustad). He trained 181 students to become masters himself.
In 1678, Allameh Majlesi was appointed as "Sheikh ul-Islam" (Chief Religious Leader) in Isfahan by Shah Suleiman I (1667-1694) . This was the highest religious and executive appointed rank of the time.
Allameh Majlesi was a very prolific writer. He wrote more than 100 books, both in Arabic and Persian. Some of his more famous works are:
Oceans of Light (Arabic: Bihar ul Anwar) in 110 volumes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allama_Majlesi
A great Shia scholar **Abu Ali al Fadl ibn al Hasan ibn al Fadl at Tabarsi **(c. 468/1076 - 548/1154) has written a book titled: Beacons of Light : Muhammad, the Prophet, and Fatimah, the Radiant – and confirmed that Prophet (saw) had FOUR DAUGHTERS.
http://www.al-islam.org/beacons/
Historians al-Masoodi, al-Tabbari & al-Yaqoobi have also confirmed that Prophet (saw) had FOUR DAUGHTERS.
Are you going to deny all the above references?
Mind you all the references that I have provided are purely from Shia sources.
Knowledge is always gained by reading up. All you have to do is read up the material for which references from **ONLY SHIA **sources has been provided.
I am not rubbing it in just because I ‘smell victory’ or to me it seems that I have you in the tight spot. No, it’s not that.
Here we are discussing about the noble blessed ladies who Allah (swt) chose to be Prophet’s (saw) daughters. This is a serious matter if you seriously think about it.
Why are you denying the Prophet (saw) the daughters he had?
Do you seriously think that the Prophet (saw) will be happy with you denying his daughters and attributing their fatherhood to some unknown person?
Think of Lady Fatimah (ra), will she be pleased with you denying her the sisters that she had? I am sure she loved them a lot.
Why is so difficult for the Shia to accept that Prophet (saw) more than one daughter?
This in no way effects the status of Lady Fatimah (ra).
Brother Das Reich I am sorry for singling you out but this applies to all the shia brothers and sisters on this board.
Re: Ahle bait
[QUOTE] Brother Das Reich I think you have opted for the easy way out. :) But, frankly speaking there is now way out for you.
Firstly,
I have never indulged in this debate to begin with if you recall my first( and only) post I just asked both shia and sunnis to explain their views and was merely helping "mjaffery" in posting his views.
Secondly,
At least I have been honest enough to admit that my knowledge is limited unlike some others who disappear without a trace when they know they cannot win an argument.
Re: Ahle bait
[quote=“Das Reich”]
Das Reich – I am aware that you were not active in this thread. That is why I said the following:
I appreciate and salute your honesty when you say that:
Brother to me this was not an argument to put anyone down as such. I too, am not that knowledgeable but Alhamdulilah I have a very dear Iranian brother who was once a Shia and that too a scholarly one. It is credit to him that I ‘managed’ to get material **ONLY **from **SHIA SOURCES **to prove that Prophet (saw) had FOUR DAUGHTERS.
He clearly told me that he knows the Shia mind-set (as he was one) and all the evidence I throw at them will not stick even if it was from the Quran. [See the post of **sister simran04 **quoted below.
I can see that his point has been proven correct so far.
Shia cannot bear that Prophet (saw) could love ANY other persons except the four.
See the following ayah clearly stating that Prophet (saw) had more that one daughter.
There is another ayah in the Quran
[quoted below]
where Allah (swt) has made the Prophet (saw) say that the Muslims should love Prophet’s (saw) near relatives.
*Say (O Muhammad) : I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful. *42:23
Don’t you think that all the Uncles, Aunts, all the Cousins, Father-in-laws, Mother-in-laws, Brother-in-laws, Sister-in-laws, Son-in-laws, all the Wives and all the Daughters and Sons are counted as near relatives? Think about it.
Re: Ahle bait
^ i thought 42:23 meant something like "....Say (O Muhammad) : I do not ask of you any reward for it but love of those near of kin...." meaning that address Quraysh and tell them that i do not ask u any reward for what i am doing, but just give me the support of a family (instead of putting hurdles in my way), give me the love that shud be given to those near of kin....
this verse came when not just Quraysh in general, but even the uncles of Muhammad (saw) were up in arms against him....
Re: Ahle bait
That’s true brother and I agree with you. And that’s how most of the translators have translated or explained it.
For instance Imam Ibn Kathir (ra) has explained it as:
[RIGHT]ذَلِكَ الَّذِى يُبَشِّرُ اللَّهُ عِبَادَهُ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ الصَّـلِحَـتِ قُل لاَّ أَسْـَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْراً إِلاَّ الْمَوَدَّةَ فِى الْقُرْبَى وَمَن يَقْتَرِفْ حَسَنَةً نَّزِدْ لَهُ فِيهَا حُسْناً إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ شَكُورٌ - أَمْ يَقُولُونَ افْتَرَى عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِباً فَإِن يَشَإِ اللَّهُ يَخْتِمْ عَلَى قَلْبِكَ وَيَمْحُ اللَّهُ الْبَـطِلَ وَيُحِقُّ الْحَقَّ بِكَلِمَـتِهِ إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ [/RIGHT]
(23. That is whereof Allah gives glad tidings to His servants who believe and do righteous good deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except to be kind to me for my kinship with you.‘’ And whoever earns a good righteous deed, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate.) (24. Or say they: "He has invented a lie against Allah’’ If Allah willed, He could have sealed up your heart. And Allah wipes out falsehood, and establishes the truth by His Word. Verily, He knows well what are in the breasts.)
Having mentioned the gardens of Paradise, Allah then says to His servants who believe and do righteous deeds:
[RIGHT]ذَلِكَ الَّذِى يُبَشِّرُ اللَّهُ عِبَادَهُ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ الصَّـلِحَـت[/RIGHT]
(That is whereof Allah gives glad tidings to His servants who believe and do righteous good deeds.) meaning, this will undoubtedly come to them, because it is glad tidings from Allah to them.
[RIGHT]قُل لاَّ أَسْـَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْراً إِلاَّ الْمَوَدَّةَ فِى الْقُرْبَى[/RIGHT]
(Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except to be kind to me for my kinship with you.‘’) means, say, O Muhammad, to these idolators among the disbeliever of Quraysh: I do not ask you for anything in return for this message and sincere advice which I bring to you. All I ask of you is that you withhold your evil from me and let me convey the Messages of my Lord. If you will not help me, then do not disturb me, for the sake of the ties of kinship that exist between you and I.' Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, was asked about the Ayah:
[RIGHT]إِلاَّ الْمَوَدَّةَ فِى الْقُرْبَى[/RIGHT]
(except to be kind to me for my kinship with you.) Said bin Jubayr said, "To be kind to the family of Muhammad.'' Ibn Abbas said, "No, you have jumped to a hasty conclusion. There was no clan among Quraysh to whom the Prophet did not have some ties of kinship.‘’ Ibn `Abbas said, "Except that you uphold the ties of kinship that exist between me and you.‘’ This was recorded by Al-Bukhari. It was also recorded by Imam Ahmad with a different chain of narration.
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=42&tid=47136
Yusufali (nominal Shia) has translated it as:
[Yusufali 42:23] That is (the Bounty) whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: “No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin.” And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service).
Pickthal has translated it as:
[Pickthal 42:23] This it is which Allah announceth unto His bondmen who believe and do good works. Say (O Muhammad, unto mankind): I ask of you no fee therefor, save lovingkindness among kinsfolk. And whoso scoreth a good deed We add unto its good for him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Responsive.
Shakir (Shia) has translated it as:
[Shakir 42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.
Since all my references has been from Shia sources I thought I better stick to what they will not reject off hand as being a bias source.
Thanks for pointing it out for the record.