Ahle bait

Re: Ahle bait

I don't know why we are debating on the number of daughters of the Prophet (pbuh). The topic is related to Ahl-e-Bait.

The issue is that has prophet identified someone as Ahl-e-Bait or not. Being a relative doesn't guaranty an automatic inclusion in the Ahl-e-Bait. We have examples of son of Noah(AS), and wife of Lut (AS). And even those who are on the right path, not necessarily get that level of being considered in the Ahl-e-Bait.

What we all agree is that Hazrat Fatima was regarded as the leader of women in paradise. Her marriage ceremony and the rituals (dowry, etc.) is typically used to define the sunnat. Every muslim agree that her sons are included in the Aal-e-Muhammad, so when we pray durood shareef we include them also. We know of ahadith that prophet (pbuh) always showed a very high respect of her (for instance standing for her whenever she comes to him) and there might be some other good things.

But none of this justifies her inclusion in Ahl-e-Bait. The issue is that do we have ahadiths that describe someone as part of Ahl-e-Bait or not. What I have in the Sahih's ahadith is that prophet used to say salam on the door of Hazrat Fatima saying that salam upon you O Ahl-e-Bait, after the revelation of Ayat-e-Tatheer. Similarly, he said a similar thing at the time of Mubahila.

Because the issue is that he mentioned very clearly that I am leaving behind two things (Quran + Ahl-e-Bait). So he must have clearly identified the Ahl-e-Bait. The ahadith I have read makes me believe that only Hazrat Fatima and her family was referred to as Ahl-e-Bait but again my knowledge is not complete.

Did he call some other person as Ahl-e-Bait beside Salman-e-Farsi?

WaSalam

Re: Ahle bait

And usual.. the whole point of the post went over your head.. go read my last post again.. try to answer the qeustions and u'll get the answer to your query... Adios

Re: Ahle bait

unityseeker

Yeah the topic is related to Ahlul Bayt. My dear friend the term ahlul bayt means **“People of the Household”. **A person’s household will include his **wives and all of his children **not the select few.

The Prophet (saw) has used this term Ahlul Bayt) to refer to his wives too.

It is of utmost importance that we should know the entire family (May Allah (saw) be pleased with them all.) of the Prophet (saw). Not just the select few.

Son of Hz. (Nuh) Noah (as) and the wife of Hz. Lut (as) were not Believers.

Could you enlighten us who among the Ahlul Bayt of the Prophet (saw) from the Sunni version were not the Believers?

Re: Ahle bait

I have received the following message from my dear brother ‘Student’ and I am posting it here “verbatim”.

"brother from now on if a Shia brother/sister simply said this Shia Hadith is not authentic (without any proof and investigations and merely to refute a point), direct him/her to this URL, let him/her decide whether he/she is also happy to say this learned Shia scholar is worng only to defend himself/herself:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28156

Note it says: “About the authenticity of these traditions, I would have to say that we must give them the benefit of the doubt and consider them authentic until proven otherwise if they are narrated in one of the major Shia texts such as the Four Books, Al Kafi, Al Wasa’el, Al Mustadrak, and Bihar Al Anwar along with its sources.”.

The point is, Bihar al Anwar is a collection of all the main books of Hadith of Shia. Any Hadith of Shia you find it is very likely that you will find it in Bihar al Anwar as well. The scholar (who is considered as a very learned one) is effectively saying that most of the Ahadith of Shia are to be considered authentic unless otherwise proved. Compare this with the attitude of some Shia brothers and sisters who announce a Hadith weak when it is not inline with their opinion.

Hope this helps.
Student"

Re: Ahle bait

Armughal... I would advice you .. before you go on preaching others it would be a good idea to read quran yourself... before you go on your motto to teach others.... thats what I hate about these forums..the knowledge one gets in unauthentic and is from people who are not any scholars..which can mislead others... Please please before you go on preaching others...read quran yourself.... If the work Ahle-e-bait only refers to quran can you please tell us what do you think about the following ayat as an example....

Following verse refers to the MOTHER of Moses
وَحَرَّمْنَا عَلَيْهِ الْمَرَاضِعَ مِن قَبْلُ فَقَالَتْ هَلْ أَدُلُّكُمْ عَلَى أَهْلِ بَيْتٍ يَكْفُلُونَهُ لَكُمْ وَهُمْ لَهُ نَاصِحُونَ {12}
28:12 And We ordained that he refuse to seek any foster mother before so she said: Shall I point out to you a household who will take care of him for you, and will be kind to him?

Now is it referring to a wife or a household??????

Re: Ahle bait

Ibn Sadique sahab... lets give a glance on your so called sahih books and see what Prophet P.B.U.H. wives have said in respect to ayat 33:33 of quran...
وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَى وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتِينَ الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا {33}
[Shakir 33:33] And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.

In Sahih Muslim, there is a chapter named "Chapter of Virtues of the Companions". Inside this chapter, there is a section called "Section of the Virtues of the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet". There exists ONLY ONE tradition in this section, and this tradition has no reference to the wives of the Prophet (PBUH&HF). The tradition is known as "The Tradition of Cloak/Mantle" (Hadith al-Kisaa), and is as follows:
Narrated Aisha: One day the Prophet (PBUH&HF) came out afternoon wearing a black cloak (upper garment or gown; long coat), then al-Hasan Ibn Ali came and the Prophet accommodated him under the cloak, then al-Husain came and entered the cloak, then Fatimah came and the Prophet entered her under the cloak, then Ali came and the Prophet entered him to the cloak as well. Then the Prophet recited: "Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you a perfect purification (the last sentence of Verse 33:33)."
Sunni reference:

  • Sahih Muslim, Chapter of virtues of companions, section of the virtues of the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1883, Tradition #61.

  • Imam Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain are the Ahlul-Bayt,

  • The purification sentence in Quran (the last sentence of Verse 33:33) was revealed for the virtue of the above-mentioned individuals, and NOT for the wives of the Prophet (PBUH&HF).

Muslim (the Author) did not put any other tradition in this section (section of the virtues of Ahlul-Bayt). If the author of Sahih Muslim believed that the wives of the Prophet were included in Ahlul-Bayt, he would have quoted some traditions about them in this section.
It is interesting to see that Aisha, the wife of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) is the narrator of the above tradition, and she herself is testifying that Ahlul- Bayt are the above-mentioned individuals (i.e., Imam Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, may the blessing of Allah be upon them all).

Another version of the "Tradition of Cloak" is written in Sahih al-Tirmidhi, which is narrated in the authority of Umar Ibn Abi Salama, the son of Umm Salama (another wife of Prophet), which is as follows: The verse "Verily Allah intends to ... (33:33)" was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH&HF) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O' Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?" the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending." Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663

As we see, al-Tirmidhi also confirms that Imam Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain are the Ahlul-Bayt, and the purification sentence in Quran (the last sentence of Verse 33:33) was revealed for the virtue of the above-mentioned individuals, and NOT for the wives of the Prophet (PBUH&HF). Also it is apparent from above authentic tradition that the Prophet himself excluded his wives from Ahlul-Bayt. If Umm Salama (RA) was among Ahlul-Bayt, why didn't the Prophet answer her positively? Why didn't he enter her into the cloak? Why did the Prophet tell her that she remains in her own position? If the Prophet (PBUH&HF) would consider Umm Salama among Ahlul-Bayt, he would surely have entered her to the cloak and would have prayed for her perfect purity as well.
It is also worth mentioning that the Prophet (PBUH&HF) did NOT say: "These are among the Members of my House". He rather said: "These are THE Members of my House" since there was no other member of Ahlul-Bayt who was alive at the time of the Prophet (PBUH&HF). Also notice that Umm Salama (RA) who is the virtuous wife of the Prophet is the narrator of the tradition to his son and gives the testimony that who Ahlul-Bayt are.
In the tradition of al-Hakim the wording the last question and answer is as follows: Umm Salama said: "O Prophet of Allah! Am I not one of the members of your family?" The Holy Prophet replied: "You have a good future but only these are the members of my family. O Lord! The members of my family are more deserving." Sunni reference: al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p416

Please let me know if any of the references are not correct.... May Allah help us all follow the right path.. Ameen

Re: Ahle bait

You are basing your entire ideology on who could or couldn’t fit under the mantle of the Holy Prophet :saw:?

And in the Ahadith you posted, where is it mentioned that the Holy Prophet :saw: said, ‘Whoever is under my mantle or cloak is member of my family’?

Seems to me he was making Dua for whoever was around at that time…Umm-e-Salama :razi: just asked if she too was part of the family, and was answered by the Prophet :saw: ‘You are in your position’, meaning you are part of the household since you are the wife and do not need to be included specifically…

Isn’t it strange that a son-in-law, who doesn’t even get a share in the inheritance according to Islamic law is included as a family member in Shia ideology but not the wife…

Weird, isn’t it…

Even weirder is basing the entire ideology of Shiasm on a selected, few Ahadith, even from those that Shiasm doesn’t respect because it somehow, in a weird way attests to the ideology of Shiaism…Yet completely ignoring the Ahadith that some very prominent Ashabas made, even by those that Shiaism venerates because it goes against their ideology…

In the Hadith you quoted, I don’t see the Holy Prophet specifically mentioning the cloak…

Seems to me a father is being visited by her daughter with her husband and kids and the grandfather affectionately keeping them close to them…In case you forget, the Holy Prophet :saw: was a very affectionate man and a true family man

Nothing special about the cloak seems to be mentioned anywhere…Yet, the whole ideology is of Shiasm is based on this one incident, actually named as “The incident of the Cloak”…

Weirder and weirder and weirder…

Re: Ahle bait

texan guy..don't bother..gaaye kay aagay been bajane wali baat hai :)

Re: Ahle bait

bhains kay agay been bajana tu suna tha ab gaaye bhi agayee

Anyway I started this thread and actually wanted to know about the daughters of hazrat muhammed(PBUH) and about their lives.

My intention was to get some authentic information on them and some guppies provided it.

But now this thread is shias bashing sunnis and sunnis bashing shias.I think there is nothing left to discuss in this thread

Re: Ahle bait

gaaye ya bhains..kiya farak parta hai..kuch assar to hoga nahi ..soye hoye ko uthaya jaa sakta hai but ager koi acting ker raha hai sonay ki uska kuch nahi ho sakta..obviously the the hadith clearly say who the ahle bait are but weird people will always find it weird

Re: Ahle bait

^ kabhi to yahee hadith ki kitaab tum ko jhoot lagti hai....
or kabhi tum issi kitaab ki baat ko le kar Quran ko bhee jhutlaatay ho....

Quran kia kehta hai tum ko us ki koyee fikr nahin kia????

Re: Ahle bait

:hehe: you have one hell of an imagination.:slight_smile:

Re: Ahle bait

haan Quran ko to sirf tumnay hi aboor kiya wa hai..tum jaisay logo ki waja say hi Prophet (pbuh&up) said He is leaving behind Quran and His Ahle bait...lekin when we show you hadith from ur own books, you start whining...blah blah blah you dont believe our books to be sahi so why are you pointing hadiths from there blah blah blah...we believe our books to be sahi but if there is any hadith praising the Holy Ahle bait we won't believe it blah blah blah

Re: Ahle bait

^ he never said he is leaving behind Quran and Ahl-e-bait, he said Quran and his sunnah....

and we dont have problems praising ahl-e-bait, we praise all of them, wives inclusive, its u ppl who praise a select few and forget the rest....
we love all of the ahl-e-bait, not part of them....

Re: Ahle bait

mughal sahab go and read your sahih muslim..it says Ahle Bait and tells you who exactly they are..i have posted it here many times but kuch farak to paray ga nahi...agar farak parta to koi jhagra hi nahi rehta

Re: Ahle bait

Not a better one than basing my entire faith on one Hadith…:wink:

So, OK…Let’s say for the sake of argument, I have become a Shia…

What now?

Re: Ahle bait

^ now start claiming that only 5-6 people really accepted Islam and all other were hypocrites....

Re: Ahle bait

do you accept the hadith in sahih muslim as sahi or not??? dont run away from a simple question

Re: Ahle bait

aye, good for you. But whats your point?

armughal; he would have accepted that long before he became shia, not after. ;-)

Re: Ahle bait

Correct me if I am wrong.. but nauzubillah are you trying to say that Prophet P.B.U.H. is saying it out of love of grand childen… and over looking the fact whatever Prophet P.B.U.H. says is the will of Allah SWT… are you gonna deny the fact now… would nauzubillah Prophet P.B.U.H. say such words… witout the will of Allah SWT…