Afghanistan Elections

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *

And, the "Professor from Hawaii" is a Nobel Prize nominated author, whose work is widely accepted by others in his field. The "Professor of Economics and Womens Studies" is out of his field of expertise, and is highly contradicted by other professionals. Did they not teach you guys critical thinking in Uni? Sheesh!
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Nominated for a prize that he didnt get. And a prize that Sharon and Arafat have gotten. And as for being widely accepted, the wikipedia reference I gave you on him said that his assertions were criticized for being based on unsound data.

Im hazarding that you do not know about the numbers or qualifications of the critics of either Professor.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
The Saudi's are the nexus of a lot of terrorism. ....
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Saudis are responsible for a lot of mayhem in Afghanistan. Let's not forget that many more hands were in the Afghan pot. The list is long and includes such luminaries as Bharat, Russia, Turkey, and the MAToo Iranians.

Responsibility of Afghan chaos also goes to the Clinton Administration. They let that wound fester while the prez participated in "cigar smoking". Half-a$$ measures like cruise missiles only exacerbated the situation. Yes we should blame Saudis and the biggest Jack-A$$ OBL, still they were small fry compared to the might of Bharat, Russia, Iran, Pakistan, and the good ole USA.

President Bush however realized the problem and sent Mullah Omer packed on a 25 cc motorbike. OBL and his Al are now hiding in the caves like eunichs and we are seeing a history making change in Afghanistan: Election.

I hope and pray Afghans get a decent shot at setting up their country strait.

“wikipedia”

For a minute I thought you would quote the World Book encyclopedia too!

Virtually all of the criticism available on Rummel is not his actaul statistics, which are meticulously researched, but his thesis of Democratic Peace. Read the “Peace Magazine” from 1999, and see if some of his comments are not a little perceptive knowing what we do now:

http://www.peacemagazine.org/fulltext/all-vol15no5.html

The correct way to challenge his information is to use the citations from his bibliography and challenge them. I have looked at the references he used for the massacres in Bangledesh in 1971, and they are probably the best available. You see Genocide is a uniquely messy endeavor, big probablity of error. But the numbers we are talking about are so huge that even if they are off by 50% we are still talking about monsterous genocide…

wiki is the greatest encyc on earth !

well maybe not but still.

as for your research, the sources he cites are necessarily based on either indian/bangladeshi or pakistani ones. Pakistani estimates are in the tens of thousands. I believe I've read 5000 somewhere. Indian/bangladeshi sources are close onto 10 million. it is obvious that each side would necessarily have a bias.

nevertheless, far too many people died, enuff said. just as far too much rigging happened. disputing/discrediting numbers and their exactness at some times and not the other is not intellectually honest.

The standard Bangledeshi number is 3,000,000 killed. Rummels’ analysis is 1.5 million killed. Here is the precise analysis, and it is annotated by source:

Now the real point to this is that some kid reads a web site, that is poorly researched and and hyped up for propaganda puposes. And he sees 3,800 killed in Afghanistan and he takes it as gospel truth. Now realisticly the casualties are one third of that, but it still sounds like a lot to the kid. He concludes that the United States is the devil on earth.

Now he does not realize that the 25 years of war in Afghanistan there have been over 1.5 million killed. He does not realize that the Afghan civil war killed at least 50 thousand. He has absolutely no perspective on the horror of the conflict. Nor does he realize that there is a high probability that Pakistan killed 1.5 Million in 1971 in only 276 Days! He is unaware that the Generals that committed the horrors in East Pakistan are comfortably retired in Paksitan, and have never been investigated. He is so conditioned to believe that the US is the greatest horror forced upon the face of the earth, that he believes that the US is evil incarnate. 3,800 people SOUNDS like a lot of people, and it is. But it is nothing compared to other conflicts in this world.

All of this means that he is conditioned by propaganda to automatically believe that anything that the US is involved with is evil and corrupt. This conditioning means that even when good things happen he is inclined to disbelieve that good things can happen, to the point where he is unwilling to help his Muslim brothers simply to try to depower the US. Some of this false information and propagnadizing feeds into anti-US hatred that fuels terrorism. Fanatics need an enemy to focus hate, and currently the US is a convenient whipping boy.

This thread is the epitome of this thinking.

What’s the big deal with the WTO attacks? How many people died, a thousand or so. Bah! That’s nothing compared to what the US has killed just in this century forget about last century.

What an utterly ignorant and stupid line of thinking. :rolleyes:

And the US a whipping boy? :hehe: Give me a break. It’s the one doing all the whipping.

The one number that cannot be disputed is the #1.

That is how many free and peaceful elections have been held in the long bloody history of Afghanistan.

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*Originally posted by Seminole: *
The one number that cannot be disputed is the #1.

That is how many free and peaceful elections have been held in the long bloody history of Afghanistan.
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Actually that one number is zero. Number of leaders in Afghanistan with the interest of the country at heart: zero.

I missed the part where that is something to sing and dance about.

Great, dance to the beat of opression and absolutism that exists in the majority of Muslim countries. Zero is also the number of constructive ideas you have to offer in your zeal to condemn any and everything to do with America.

Actually you'll be displeased to know the majority of people in Pakistan are not opressed, some even, gasp, enjoy life. Yes reality is a bit different to what you see on Fox News.

Don't flatter yourself in thinking that only those in the West have a life.
Like I said earlier, it cracks me up when people who haven't ventured outside of their backyard pass judgements on life in other countries. Come back when you have lived a little.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by skhan: *
Don't flatter yourself in thinking that only those in the West have a life.

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We all have a life some are just potentially better in quality than others.

Why you in Missou, homey? Is there something in it for you like...more opportunity, freedom to pursue your goals, more money?

P.S. I think you're right about U.S. interest in Afghanistan. That miserable country harbored the a-wipes who incinerated, crushed or otherwise murdered thousands of innocent people. Our only interest should probably have been just whupping ass like they did in the old days. No reconstruction, no nation building.

Actually in the old days we did create at great expense and effort some fantastically successful countries like Germany and Japan.

We're just too damn nice. Democracy, potential for stability and prosperity. What a generous and thoughtful gift of to the people of Afghanistan from the world's most generous and caring nation-The United States of America.

In all seriousness, this thread is so indicative of the mindless state of anti-U.S. bias.

That the most profound and hopeful change in the long and violent history of a dysfunctional and dangerous society that has been preyed upon and manipulated by many external and internal forces to the great detriment of its people, can be so callously maligned can only come from very petty souls indeed.

Even during the Taliban regime U.S. aid topped the list of humanitarian donors.

(Afghan Anthem begins to play)

Nothing you pathetic contrarians will ever task yourself to do-no political position you take-no college rally you attend-no internet argument you make, will ever help your fellow Muslim brethren in the long term the way American action has and will help the Afghan people walk away from their collective misery.

(Crescendo)

Close your eyes and ears and pretend the U.N. did it. Or France or even Egypt and Jordan...whatever. Just recognize for one unpolluted moment, as millions of Afghans did, that something good happened for them on the day they voted-the day they began to set their course as a nation of proud, noble people!

(Record scratch gives way to Skynyrd's "Freebird")

Naahhhhh! Who cares. The real and lasting message is..."you harbor terrorists and you get a serious whupping, 'here?" That's enough. Get free and prosperous on your own time.

Yee-f'ing HA!

What terrorists did Iraq harbor? What did it do to get the ass whooping? Hmmm, WMD’s are out. Al Qaeda link is out. I know, the good ole liberation line! Works like a charm every time. :hehe:

The rest of the world aren’t as easy to fool as the gullible American population.

Storch dude,

That was a thing of beauty, I love "Freebird"!

What is this OG??!
Some nightmare?!

I’m not sure how much you know about Infrastructure, business, marketing and their influences on world economy and how each and every milestone in history effects the WORLD Business.
Well If you do then its great and you shouldn’t this matter just a case of “It only will help Afghans themselves!” and IF you dont i would suggest you a very easy to understand book: Macroeconomics by Mankiw (btw he is American Im pretty sure you wont argue on his words).

I have forgetten more about business than you will ever know.

So tell me genius, you post an article about some pipeline. Is it built? Any progress? Should be almost done by now RIGHT?

Please read before you post.

Read an earlier article from the same sources:

Afghanistan: the pipeline war?

Some commentators have asked if it’s all about oil

By BBC Eurasia Analyst Malcolm Haslett
Some attractively original theories have been going the rounds about the real reasons for the Afghan war.

It is obviously much more, some columnists and political theorists suggest, than a simple effort to stamp out terrorism.

Apart from the popular theory (in some parts of Europe as well as the Middle East) that this is a war on Islam, there is also the theory that it is a war motivated mainly - or even purely - by long-term economic and political goals.

The importance of Central Asian oil and gas has suddenly been noticed.

The valuable deposits of fossil fuels in Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan, previously discussed only by regional experts and international energy companies, are now being mulled over on the opinion pages of popular dailies.

Economic imperatives

The Afghan war, it has been discovered, has an economic side to it.
Oil is undeniably important to the Americans
Some writers, indeed, have gone further, suggesting that economic considerations provide the main, or at the very least a major, motivation for US and western involvement in Afghanistan.

If one discounts the more extreme and emotional versions of this theory, the argument boils down to this:

Afghanistan has been proposed by more than one western oil company (the US-based Unocal is often mentioned, but it is not the only one) as the best route by which to export the Central Asian republics’ important output of oil and gas
Given the increasing importance of finding and exploiting new sources of fossil fuel, governments like those of the US and the UK are enormously keen to gain influence in the Central Asian region in order to secure those supplies for the West
In order to achieve that, and get those energy supplies moving out of Central Asia, they need to set up a pro-western government in Afghanistan.

Flawed theory
This line of argument falls down on a number of points.

It is undeniably true that the Central Asian republics do have very significant reserves of gas and oil, and that they have been having difficulty in getting them on to the world market on conditions favourable to them.

Until recently Russia had an almost total monopoly of export pipelines, and was demanding a high price, in economic and political terms, for their use.

But it simply is not true that Afghanistan is the main alternative to Russia.

On the contrary, very few western politicians or oil companies have taken Afghanistan seriously as a major export route - for the simple reason that few believe Afghanistan will ever achieve the stability needed to ensure a regular and uninterrupted flow of oil and gas.

There have been exceptions, of course, like Unocal and the Argentine company Bridas.

The main proponents of the Afghan pipeline idea, however, apart from the Taleban regime itself and its backers in Pakistan, was the government of the eccentric Turkmen President Saparmyrat Niyazov, known as “Turkmenbashi”.

Caucasus route

The West, in contrast, and particularly the US, has put almost all its efforts into developing a major new route from the Caspian through Azerbaijan and Georgia to the Black Sea.

This had the potential advantage (from a western point of view) of bypassing Russia and Iran, and breaking their monopoly of influence in the region - allowing the states of the Caucasus (Georgia, Azerbaijan and possibly Armenia) and Central Asia (Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan) to develop a more balanced, independent foreign policy.

The Afghans would benefit from a pipeline

That, of course, worries many in Russia, and to a lesser degree in Iran.

They also now fear that the Central Asians’ willingness to entertain US forces on their territory could substantially increase US influence in the region.

Such a scenario, however, is far from certain.

The western powers have caused considerable annoyance among the authoritarian regimes of Central Asia by harping on human rights abuses - particularly, incidentally, against Muslims - and the need for greater democratisation.

It seems highly unlikely, moreover, that the US-led “Coalition against Terrorism” has any illusions about how “pro-western” any potential new Afghan Government would be.

The main prerequisite for the survival of a new administration in Kabul, is that it win wide acceptance among the various ethnic and political groupings in Afghanistan itself.

No US stooges

And very few of those groups are exactly pro-western.

Western influence in Afghanistan would, at best, remain shaky.

In addition, if peace and stability were to return to Afghanistan, and a new pipeline to Central Asia was to be built, the principal beneficiaries would undoubtedly be the Afghans, as well as Pakistan, Turkmenistan, and the other Central Asians.

In brief, then, considerations of economic and political influence will undoubtedly play a part in western strategies in Afghanistan.

It would be strange if they did not. But the argument that these are the main motivations behind US actions, not the desire to stamp out international terrorism, will probably find support mainly among those who already have a fondness for conspiracy theories.

The US should deal with all nations justice and should do no favors. Al-Qeada and Taliban gave birth in Pakistan not in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, or Iran. Pakistan already has nuclear weapons and has been known, proven, that it has shared its nuclear technology with other dangerious nations like Lybia, Iran, North Korea and Syria.

The United States needs to step up and act upon this threat to the free world asap otherwise the threat of fundamentalism and terrorism will never end. We dont want weapons of mass destruction ending up in the hands of these terrorists.

God Bless America!

For all you who think the US has liberated Afghani women, here is some food for thought.

http://www.dawn.com/2004/10/15/letted.htm

Afghan women and elections

The Bush administration constantly calls attention to the fact that four millions of those who registered to vote in Afghanistan were women. Just as the “liberation” of Afghan women was used to justify the bombing of Afghanistan three years ago, their participation in the US-imposed elections is being used to justify US approach and policies towards that country.

While the administration deals in broad statistics to paint a rosy picture, a closer look reveals that Afghan politics, controlled by a US-backed president and a coterie of warlords, remains extremely hostile to women.

Women comprise 60 per cent of the population but are only 43 per cent of registered voters - a little different from Pakistan’s 46 per cent registered women voters in a country of 48 per cent women. Nevertheless, it’s better than Fata’s 30-odd per cent registered women voters.

Additionally, sharp differences in literacy between men and women put women at a huge disadvantage. Only 10 per cent of Afghan women can read and write. While school attendance of girls has increased to about 50 per cent nation-wide, it is too early to affect women voters.
**Under Karzai’s presidency, married women were banned from attending schools in late 2003. **

While much mileage has been squeezed out of the notion that the US “liberated” Afghan women, **only one dollar out of every $5,000 ($112,500 out of $650 million) of US financial aid sent to Afghanistan in 2002 was actually given to women’s organizations. **

**Women have increasingly been a target of violence. Amnesty International’s and allied studies reveal that sexual violence has surged since the fall of the Taliban, and there has been a sharp rise in incidents of women’s self-immolation in western Afghanistan. ** **Amnesty International has documented an escalation in the number of girls and young women abducted and forced into marriage, with collusion from the state (those who resist are often imprisoned). **

**US policy appears to have empowered fundamentalists who have further extended women’s oppression in a traditionally ultra-conservative society. In a public opinion survey conducted in Afghanistan this July by the Asia Foundation, 72 per cent of respondents said men should advise women on their voting choices and 87 per cent of all Afghans interviewed said women would need their husbands’ permission to vote. **

On International Women’s Day this year, Hamid Karzai implored men to allow their wives and sisters to register votes, assuring them: “Later, you can control who she votes for, but please, let her go (to register).”

Most of the candidates against Karzai mentioned rights for women in some form or another as part of their election campaigns. However, Latif Pedram, a candidate who suggested that polygamy was unfair to women, was barred from the election and investigated by the Afghan justice ministry for “blasphemy”.

Just like the Afghan constitution signed earlier this year which gives equal rights to women on paper, this election will probably have little bearing on the reality of Afghan women’s lives. Denied an education and underrepresented in voter rolls, women are once more simply pawns within the US-designed Afghan political structure.

DR ADAM NAYYAR

Islamabad


Looks like we need the Taliban back for some real liberation!

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*Originally posted by skhan: *

Looks like we need the Taliban back for some real liberation!
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What you waitin' fer? Join up and help them get back in power if you think that's best.

Nah, probably safer to keep studying in Middle America.

It's a powerful and very persuasive message coming from you.

"Foreign Student Demands Return of Taliban"

Keep it up!

Yep, personal attacks when your argument gets thrown back in your face. I expected nothing more from the likes of you. All talk no substance. This discussion is over.

America needs to liberate their own women first from it over sexualized perverted society. Women is nothing but a sexual toy in the name of equality.