The link I posted showed over 1.8Million people killed over a period of 25 years of warfare in Afghanistan. That is an average of 72,000 per year, or 6,000 deaths per month. If you accept the casualty counts from Human Rights Watch or Reuters, there were approximately 1300 civilian casualties during the US war there. And then, for the most part the fighting stopped. Other than periodic clashes in the mountains, or terrorist style attacks by the Taliban, the killing that had left the country bloody for 25 years ended.
And no, The Afghans did not ask us to come to Afghanistan to liberate them, but OBL did issue an invitation. We accepted....
The turn out for voting is a massive message, and would certainly tend to contradict the "Afghans love the Taliban" assertion.
And, the "Professor from Hawaii" is a Nobel Prize nominated author, whose work is widely accepted by others in his field. The "Professor of Economics and Womens Studies" is out of his field of expertise, and is highly contradicted by other professionals. Did they not teach you guys critical thinking in Uni? Sheesh!
Afghan’s best interest? Yeah right. People like him try to justify every atrocity committed by US. America and its butt kissers like utd have no sympathy for Afghanis. They are in Afghanistan for their strategic interests not for the interests of Afghanis.
They are in Afghanistan for their strategic interests not for the interests of Afghanis.
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Guess what, an Afghanistan that isn't a swamp for terrorists to breed in is in the best interests of America. How do you do that? Free elections, to create a transparent government, one that will be held accountable for its actions. Employment, so that people can have jobs and are able to feed their children instead of fighting a war. Education, create a brain foundation for the country so it may evolve into greater and better things and not relay on the Aid of others. This is what America wants and frankly I think its what the Afghanis want.
^ Noble aims, indeed. But I doubt Karzai is the man for all that. The dude is hungry for power. Not to mention that Afghan's are notorious for disregarding the government in Kabul, or any kind of government for that matter. They have their own life-style. Education and health and roads and all the other good stuff is welcome, but to make them secular or change their governance methods (from jarga system to whatever) is neither easy nor something that has tangible benefits.
I guess for the moment, Afghans and you/we are stuck with Karzai. As and when a better candidate comes forward, hopefully, the country will actually make a move towards a better future.
UTD
I wish everything were true what you just said. There is nothing wrong with your plan if it was done with good intentions, but unfortunately its not really happening. I already said, US has no sympathy towards Afghanis. The same people you are calling them as terrorist were friends of US when they were fighting against Soviets. After the fall of Soviet Union US turned its back to Afghanistan and allowed Taliban to take control of the country. According to you, skhan and I are only saying this because of our hatred towards America. But the fact is that after every American foreign intervention there is a self-interest involved. Elections in Afghanistan are not fair, so there will be no transparent Govt. The whole argument in this thread is about the fairness of elections, and you and some others just don’t want to accept that facts about the elections were unfair. How the new Govt will gain the trust of people when it comes in power without the willingness of its people?
My relatives in afghanistan said that they are annoucing new election very soon.. so lets see...yeah the election was cancelled due to 2 reason.. 1 reason that the ink was not real it was washable and one man voted 15 times then second reason was that when they brought new and orginal ink the vote paper was finished... so many ppl couldnt vote... my phophi said that she went to voting center 2 times and each time they said that she cant vote due to these reason.
UTD & Co, don't really want to hear the nitty-gritty details of why the elections were not fair. They prefer the news as reported by CNN that "According to Prime Minister Karzai, the elections were fair". End of story. Things seem amazingly nice from 32,000 feet level. The rivers are flowing, the crops are standing and a brave and valiant leader, Mr Karzai is leading the Afghans into a new era of development and progress. Wah!
Now in a country where they have to deliver the ballots by donkey you all are expecting a pristine election? Here is what the EU and the Afghan observer group have to say:
"The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe said demands by 15 of the 18 presidential candidates to annul the poll were “unjustified.” The local Free and Fair Elections Foundation of Afghanistan – an observer group made up of 13 Afghan non-governmental organizations – said the poll was “fairly democratic.” http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041011-035405-7958r.htm
Now is this a third world country? You betcha. Does crap happen in third world elections all over the world? You betcha. Do most third world countries have THOUSANDS of independent poll watchers looking over the elections? No. Aghanistan is by far the most OBSERVED Third world election in decades (other than East Timor, a tiny country). So what do you expect?
Let’s face it, there are plenty of corrupt elections in virtually every Muslim country eh? To hold Afghanistan to a Western Standard is ludicrous. And frankly there you all are missing the point. The Afghan people by ALL reports turned out in record numbers. They want to vote. They want democracy. If the turnout was poor it would send a completely different message. But the clear message regardless of the outcome of the election is the thirst and the passion the Afghans have for participating in their government. They do not want tyranny, nor dictatorships.
And that cannot be denied, and it is a very good thing…
Anyone who does not concede that the recent election represented substantial progress and hope for the Afghan people compared to what they have lived with and in for the last 30 years or so is, IMO, just plain ignorant.
You've got to salute anyone who had the guts and fortitude to actually run for office and the guts and fortiutde of the 10 Million or so who voted regardless of threats to them for doing so. :Salute: You can never get to a second election until you've had your first. Peaceful transitions of power from one government to another based upon the ballot box require a historical moving picture not a single snapshot in time. It will take a series of elections for the process to become ingrained, natural and unflawed. What you need is people in leadership positions who are committed to the process and the ideal. Whether Karzai was or is a puppet is really not relevant providing that the puppet continues the progress in this direction. When he, god willing, completes his term and turns the reigns of power over to the next guy elected President, the process will become further ingrained. It will probably take a generation of young Afghans growing up in such a system for the democracy to become firmly entrenched.
And for those of you who think the US is still there to loot Afghanistan rather than to assist in entrenching some form of democracy, tell me what there is that is left to loot. The entire country is nothing but a pile of rubble and poppy farms. If we had wanted to loot some country's natural resources, we would have invaded Iraq rather than Afghanistan. ( :D )
Well, we have learned a big lesson, that ink needs to be indelible, and that there should be more polling place observers.
Now then, since we have a big election in Iraq coming up, let's see how many concerned Muslim Guppies will volunteer to go to Iraq and serve as observers. Better yet, how many Muslim countries will send observers? Probably none.
The pathetic fact once again is that the armchair jihadis take potshots at what is done, ever the critics, but they never are on the frontlines doing it themselves. The Afghans, the EU, the US and the UN were the only ones who helped make better elections in any way! So let's please not complain that there are despots running Muslim countries when no one lifts a finger (other than poised above a keyboard) for change.
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*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Now then, since we have a big election in Iraq coming up, let's see how many concerned Muslim Guppies will volunteer to go to Iraq and serve as observers.
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Excellent point, OG. Ofcourse, you mean that any one criticizing anything should first stand in line to be part of the process and earn their medals before opening their mouth or typing their post. Valuable lesson, indeed. Not sure, how practical, ofcourse, since this is but, just an internet discussion forum. But that, maybe, is irrelevant. After all the purpose is to make a point. Thats all.
Who is saying that the election was fair? Show me their faces nahi logo the election was totally unfair... kaka karzi says that to incourage ppl to continue voting for him.... Well personnal i am gonna vote for him too but the thing that the election was fair is totally wrong....
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*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Well, we have learned a big lesson, that ink needs to be indelible, and that there should be more polling place observers.
Now then, since we have a big election in Iraq coming up, let's see how many concerned Muslim Guppies will volunteer to go to Iraq and serve as observers. Better yet, how many Muslim countries will send observers? Probably none.
The pathetic fact once again is that the armchair jihadis take potshots at what is done, ever the critics, but they never are on the frontlines doing it themselves. The Afghans, the EU, the US and the UN were the only ones who helped make better elections in any way! So let's please not complain that there are despots running Muslim countries when no one lifts a finger (other than poised above a keyboard) for change.
There are doers and there are critics.
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These same despots enjoy the full patronage of the American goverment. Mubarak, King Abdullah, Musharraf, Allawi, Karzai, the list goes on. Where are the democratic principles when your administration is sucking up to these despots. Or they only apply to those places where you first go and kill innocent civilians in their thousands and then introduce democracy. No thank you. At least with the despots you know where you stand, with the so called democracy you introduce one has to pay the price of ten of thousands killed before they tell you we are going to rebuild your country by giving contracts to our companies, especially the ones where our vice president has interests and then we will give you freedom. If you dont agree well there is always the daisy cutters and B52's. Stark choice.!!!!!
"These same despots enjoy the full patronage of the American goverment. Mubarak, King Abdullah, Musharraf, Allawi, Karzai, the list goes on. Where are the democratic principles when your administration is sucking up to these despots. Or they only apply to those places where you first go and kill innocent civilians in their thousands and then introduce democracy. No thank you. At least with the despots you know where you stand, with the so called democracy you introduce one has to pay the price of ten of thousands killed before they tell you we are going to rebuild your country by giving contracts to our companies, especially the ones where our vice president has interests and then we will give you freedom. If you dont agree well there is always the daisy cutters and B52's. Stark choice.!!!!!"
Ah, we have certainly called for elections in Pakistan, Karzai just had one, Mubarak is being paid for peace, and the Saudi's are certainly not high on our list post 9/11. But, having a big old Democracy right on the borders of Syria, Jordan, Iran and Saudi would be pretty interesting huh?
So what say, are you going to continue to whine that there is nothing you can do, or will you volunteer to be a UN observer in Iraq? For the first time in 30 years the Iraqi people will have elections not completely dominated by one party. Stop pouting and do something......
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*Originally posted by mawarid: *
These same despots [Karzai] enjoy the full patronage of the American goverment. ....
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Very poignant statement for the chauffer of Mullah Omer's 25 cc motorcycle!
Karazi is despot.
Karzai builds a unified government, makes sure Pushtoon women are not beaten in the bazaar, Pushtoon girls can go to school, Pushtoon doctors can serve in the hospital, rebuilds Afghanistan.
Mullah Omer is good
because his Mullahs beat the crap out of Pushtoon women in the bazaar, Pushtoon girls couldn't go to school, Pushtoon doctors couldn't serve in the hospital, bombed Bamyan Budhas.
Hahah! Tali-bobos are surely running out of arguments.
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*Originally posted by Attia: *
Who is saying that the election was fair?
....
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Elections are always unfair unless they are held under the auspices of OBL and Al-Zaya-hiri.
Unfortunately those brave "na-marads" (eunuchs) are refusing to come out of the caves. So we have to live under these unfair elections.
Attia don't lose heart. We will hold new and fair elections as soon as OBL, Al, and the one-eyed are available for an interview.
The Saudi's are the nexus of a lot of terrorism. They fund it, they export it, they encourage it, and then they deny it.
Afghanistan the case in point. There was a time to fight, and a time for reconciliation and peace. The continuing civil war in Afghanistan was funded by the Saudi's funneling money to the most virulent factions after the Soviets left, assisted by the radicalized ISI. The US should have stuck around and exerted it's will in Afghanistan, and a much more moderate Afghanistan would have emerged. Throwing additional gasoline onto a fire of Islamic radicalism became the terror of today. Just yesterday the Saudi's finally shut down another charity that funds violent Islam. Only when the Saudi's own survival is threatened will they wake up and realize that they have breast fed this monster.
Saudi's are so frikken' lazy and spoiled that they cannot run thier own country. If all the foreign nationals left, including Paksitani's and Americans, the place would grind to a halt. They are the ultimate trust fund babies, sitting on a sea of oil, eating grapes, and writing checks.... They survived by feigning wisdom and insight into the Arab world. In the mean time they are so out of touch they have no idea what an Arab is any more.