Afghanistan Elections

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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And the Chinese (a bit ironic yes)

BEIJING, Oct. 12 (Xinhuanet) – Afghanistan will finally gain its “everlasting peace and stability” with the common efforts the Afghan people, said Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue here Tuesday.

Zhang made the remark at a routine news conference when asked to comment on the ongoing presidential election in Afghanistan. 

"We noticed that the election, a key link in Afghanistan's peace process, has gone smoothly," said Zhang. "We hope and believe that the everlasting peace and stability in Afghanistan will finally be achieved with the Afghan people's efforts." Enditem

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-10/12/content_2083371.htm

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^^ So what's your point? Who gives a flip what a communist country leader has to say? China has it's own bad record of human rights violation. You could not come up with a better one? Next time do a better google search.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
While there have been botches by the current Bush administration in capturing Bin Laden that doesn't take away from the fact that U.S. forces have killed thousands of Taliban and Al qaeda members and supporters.

[/QUOTE]

Correction, the US killed thousand upon thousands of civilians which were labelled as "collateral" damage. On the other hand it miserably failed to capture or kill any top Al Qaeda or Taliban leaders, both OBL and Omar reamin at large.

84

"Correction, the US killed thousand upon thousands of civilians"

Open both eyes.

The ongoing war between the Northern Alliance and the Taliban was an utterly brutal war, with far more civilian casualties and attrocities. The country was reduced to rubble in 25 years of factional fighting. The past three years have seen the fighting largely reduced to a few pockets in the mountains, and ongoing attrocities by the Taliban remanants.

Of course these facts mean little to you in your fixation to find the US to blame for all ills in the world...

85

Nearly 3,800 Afghans died between 7 October and 7 December 2001 and that’s a conservative estimate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1740538.stm

God knows how many died between December 2001 until now.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
"Correction, the US killed thousand upon thousands of civilians"

Open both eyes.

The ongoing war between the Northern Alliance and the Taliban was an utterly brutal war, with far more civilian casualties and attrocities. The country was reduced to rubble in 25 years of factional fighting. The past three years have seen the fighting largely reduced to a few pockets in the mountains, and ongoing attrocities by the Taliban remanants.

Of course these facts mean little to you in your fixation to find the US to blame for all ills in the world...
[/QUOTE]

So two wrongs make a right, just because they were killing each other that gave you a licence to go in and kill more civilians and add to their misery. Well done.

87

3,800, that was an average WEEK for most of the Afghan conflict!

Know and understand the SCOPE of deaths in war before you make judgements sonny boy. Various death estimates of deaths in Afghanistan:

(1979-2001): 1 800 000
Soviets vs. Mujahideen vs. Govt. vs. Taliban [estimates listed chronologically]
War Annual 6 (1994): 1,000,000
Britannica Annual (1994): 1,500,000
Wallechinsky (1995): 1,300,000
D.Smith (1995): 1,500,000
B&J (1997): 1,500,000 (1979-95)
Dictionary of 20C World History (1997): 1M
CDI: 1,550,000 (1978-97)
29 April 1999 AP: 2,000,000
Dict.Wars: >2M
23 May 1999 Denver Rocky Mtn News: 1,800,000
Ploughshares 2000: 1,500,000
[MEDIAN of latest five: 1,800,000]
Partials
Soviet Phase and immediate aftermath only
Isby, War in a Distant Country: Afghanistan (1989): Civilian deaths:
1986 voluntary aid study: 600,000
1987 USAID study: 875,000
1987 Gallup study: 1,200,000
2 June 2002 LA Times: 670,000 civilians during 10-year Soviet occupation
Toronto Star (6 May 1991): more than 1,000,000
SIPRI 1990: 1,000,000 total dead (the 1988 Yearbook estimated 100-150T battle dead)
Minneapolis Star-Tribune (14 Sept. 1991): 1,500,000
FAS 2000: 1-2M Afghans (1979-89)
USA Today (17 Apr. 1992): more than 2 million.
[MEDIAN: 1.5M]
20 Sept 2001 Christian Science Monitor: 400,000 civilian deaths in the 1990s [Life under Taliban cuts two ways - CSMonitor.com]
Factional fighting in Kabul, 1992-96
30 Dec. 2001 AP: 50,000
2 June 2002 LA Times: >50,000 acc2 Red Cross
Atrocities:
2 June 2002 LA Times: 20,000 civilians k. by Soviet air raids, March 1979 in Herat
4 March 1980 AP: 1,300 villagers in Konarha Province k. by Soviets & Afghan govt. “last year”
By Soviets in Kunduz (province in northern Afg.)
27 March 1985 Chicago Tribune: 900 massacred
26 Feb. 1985 AP: 480 civilians massacred at Chahardara (town) ca. Feb. 2/3
Taliban POWs k. by Northern Alliance in Mazar-i-Sharif, May 1997
28 Nov.1998 NY Times: up to 2,000
26 Aug. 2002 Newsweek: 1,250
By Taliban in Mazar-e Sharif, Nov. 1998
13 Nov. 1998 News-India Times: 5,000-8,000 massacred
28 Nov.1998 Washington Post: 2,000-5,000 ethnic Hazara civilians k.
Harff & Gurr: 1,000,000 old regime loyalists, rebel supporters were victims of revolutionary politicide.
Soviet deaths:
FAS 2000: ca. 14,500
20 May 88 Chicago Tribune: 12-15,000 killed
Isby, War in a Distant Country: 13,310 KIA as of 25 May 1988
24 Dec. 1989 Arizona Republic: 13,310
War Annual 6 (1994): 13,833
Wallechinsky: 14,454, incl. 11,381 in combat
WAR STATS REDIRECT

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^ Oh I see, since the Afghans are so familiar with war, a few more daisy cutters here and some crushed villages there won't make much of a difference. Typical American attitude.

As usual no one was able to respond to my posts. Copy pasting only gets you so far.

89

War has ended. Peace and an effective political process are upon us. And by the way, your source on the 3,800 deaths is highly suspect. See other threads.

What about this do you not get? The last three years have been the most peaceful in the last 30 in Afghanistan.

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Since when world biggest news source has lost its credibility? That’s news for me!
If you don’t want to accept something you can make news organization like BBC a highly suspect? haha that was a good one.

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:rotfl:

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Professor Herold is a professor of Economics and Womens Studies in New Hampshire. His web site was visited by the BBC author, but the good professor sits comfortably in his New Hampshire office clipping press reports which may or may not be accurate. A far more detailed analysis is available from the Project on Defense Alternatives which uses multiple sources.

Professor Herold’s estimates are likey three times too high when compared to more informed on the ground sources such as Human Rights Watch and Reuters.

Any questions boys?

  1. A study in contrast: the Afghanistan and Kosovo air campaigns
    Through 10 December the total numbers of attack sorties and weapons expended in Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) were far less than those in the 1999 Balkans campaign, Operation Allied Force (OAF): approximately 4700 attack sorties in OEF versus 13,000 in OAF; and, 12,000-plus weapons in OEF versus 23,000 in OAF.2 Nonetheless, credible reports of bombing mishaps and accidental civilian casualties suggest a level of civilian fatalities in Afghanistan greater than that experienced in the 1999 Kosovo war. At least 500 civilians were killed in the Kosovo war by the NATO bombardment.3 In Afghanistan, it is very likely that the bombing campaign claimed 1000-1300 civilian lives. (See Appendix 1. Estimation of Civilian Bombing Casualties: Method and Sources).

Given that fewer weapons were expended, a higher level of civilian fatalities in Operation Enduring Freedom implies that the bombing campaign in Afghanistan was less accurate than the one associated with the 1999 Balkans war.

Of course, there is a propagandistic aspect to the accounting and reporting of civilian casualties that complicates any effort to discern the facts.4 At the end of October, the Taliban asserted that more than 1600 civilians had been killed in bombing raids during the first three weeks of the war – an average of 533 per week. US defense officials discounted these claims as lies, preferring to talk in terms of dozens of casualties (when they were willing to offer estimates at all).5 However, in early November, a report by British intelligence, directly countered the Taliban claims, estimating that only 300 civilians had been killed during October – an average of approximately 90 per week.6 (Notably, bombing was relatively light during two of the weeks covered by this report; it became both more intense and more free-ranging after 20 October.)

Another insight on bombing casualties has been provided by Dr. Marc Herold, a University of New Hampshire economics professors, who has compiled a database of hundreds of articles on the war from the world press. This database includes accounts of more than 4,000 civilian deaths from bombing during the period 7 October - 1 January 2002.7

As noted above, the present study uses a lower estimate: between 1000 and 1300 civilians killed in the bombing campaign through 1 January 2002. This estimate relies on a press review that is less extensive than the Herold review, but that applies a more stringent accounting criteria in order to correct for likely reporting bias.8 Regarding an upper-end estimate of casualties: the present study finds it difficult to reconcile a civilian death toll from bombing that is much higher than1300 with the conditions being reported currently by journalists on the ground in Afghanistan – although this may change when (and if) more comprehensive and systematic surveys are conducted. (See Appendix 2. Resolving Discrepancies in Casualty Accounts.)

The estimate used in the present study is broadly consistent with two other recent reviews: one by Human Rights Watch, which calculated at least 1000 civilian deaths, and one by Reuters news agency, which concluded that perhaps 982 people were killed in 14 incidents.9 It is also broadly consistent with an extrapolation of the estimate made by British intelligence at the end of October.

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:rotfl:

This should be in the jokes section.

On the other hand watching too much fox news can be injurious to the thought process.

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Good job of copy and paste but by trying to prove the minimum number of civilian casualty does not justify the death of innocent Afghanis by the hands of US forces. People of Afghanistan didn’t ask US to come and free them from Taliban. Most of the Afghanis still think that they were better off with Taliban than losing thousand of innocent lives just to bring pro American non-Islamic secular regime. Just remember you cannot implement your idea of western democracy on other nations. Time will tell if thing are better or worse.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Agent Smith: *
Most of the Afghanis still think that they were better off with Taliban than losing thousand of innocent lives just to bring pro American non-Islamic secular regime.
[/QUOTE]

A, your full of *e saying that "Most of the Afghanis still think that they were better off with Taliban.” B, You make it sound as if living under the Taliban that Afghanistan was thriving, which again, is just more bulle being spewed from you. The fact remains it was under worse conditions than it is today. Today there are more children in schools, and less children dying from lack of immunizations, what aren't you comprehending? I understand you’re engraved with the notion that America is evil from the get go, but look at the facts, look at the before and after situation, compare the death rates and conditions of those living now and then, is it great now, no it’s ***e, but is it better than under the Taliban and is it improving as more Aid is spent, yes it is.

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utd, you almost sound like an Afghan. How is Kabul these days? Or is it Tora Bora?

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Faisal, I'll show you my bunker buster if you show me yours.

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Nahi seriously, Utd Khan… you sound almost as if you had Afghan’s best interests in your heart. Truly a remarkable outburst. :k:

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
utd, you almost sound like an Afghan. How is Kabul these days? Or is it Tora Bora?
[/QUOTE]

It looks like utd lost his naswaar, that’s why he is so pissed. Calm down man it should be here somewhere. Check your pockets. :D

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
**Professor Herold is a professor of Economics and Womens Studies in New Hampshire. His web site was visited by the BBC author, but the good professor **sits comfortably in his New Hampshire office clipping press reports which may or may not be accurate. A far more detailed analysis is available from the Project on Defense Alternatives which uses multiple sources. *

[/QUOTE]

I do hope you bear the same spirit of pinch-of-saltness the next time you talk about the Professor from Hawaii with his Democide figures, and their veracity as opposed to a Project on Bangladeshi Deaths based in lahore which says that 5 bangali donkeys and a hen were killed.

its amazing how inconsistent people are.