No worries they still have Iraq 
for backup. And forget whole Afghanistan, let them try to control whole Kabul. 
And I thought the Army could handle a few bearded men with AK47’s. Guess not. Looks like American tax dollars are going down the drain.
Puppet?
Up til now, he has been our puppet. But if Afghanistan truely has had free and fair elections (pretty rare in the Muslim world), then how will you justify calling him a puppet if he wins a fair election? At that point he becomes a relatively rare leader in the Muslim world, freely elcted, including women!
Other than your prejudice against the US, you have no reason not to celebrate the success of the Afghan people. Can you separate the two?
The people of Afghanistan need to spell democracy first and understand what democracy is all about before voting. The indigenous people of Afghanistan need to be educated first on what democracy is, what it does and what it means. Democracy is not for the educated class that came back to Afghanistan under US protection but for everyone. What good is a democratically chosen US sycophant and government residing over uneducated masses, no infrastructure, and flourishing opium trade.
While I applaud US for what it is doing in Afghanistan and Iraq, no other country in the world has committed itself the way US has, however; the way US is going about installing democracies in these two countries appears to be a fast exit strategy for US to pull out. Current US administration has made democracy look like a McDonald Franchise that can be installed instantaneously (or meals ready to eat just add water concept). I think not, Democracy cannot be given to people it is rather earned by people.
“You can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink”
Verizon, you didn’t listen to my advice did you?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Puppet?
Up til now, he has been our puppet. But if Afghanistan truely has had free and fair elections (pretty rare in the Muslim world), then how will you justify calling him a puppet if he wins a fair election? At that point he becomes a relatively rare leader in the Muslim world, freely elcted, including women!
Other than your prejudice against the US, you have no reason not to celebrate the success of the Afghan people. Can you separate the two?
[/QUOTE]
If being the operative word in the above statement and it is a big if.
Apart from your prejudice that everything US says and does is right, can you seperate the facts from fiction? Remeber the 100% certainty that Iraq had WMD's and all your countrymen believed that lie 100%. Maybe the free and fair elections is the same as WMD. Admit it US administrations lie and lie big time. As for democracy these elections are on par with the ones held in Egypt, Syria and Iraq, where the winner always get overwhelming majority.
oh oh not another one. 
"As for democracy these elections are on par with the ones held in Egypt, Syria and Iraq, where the winner always get overwhelming majority."
No. There are not hundreds of foreign observers assuring fairness, and record voter registration and turnout in the face of violence. In Afghanistan if you vote you might get killed. In Iraq if you did not vote and vote correctly, you got killed.
How can the same idiots who condemn Karzai as the mayor of Kabul then turn around and claim that his influence in the countryside is so powerful and intimidating that he can sway the vote? Which is it?
Oh so when the Americans brought him in, you admit he was a puppet. But when the Afghanis vote for this very same American puppet, he becomes a leader representing the Afghan nation? What kind of convoluted logic is that? It's not as if the Afghans had the freedom to choose a candidate they felt best represented them.
Elections in Iraq will be a mirror image of what happened in Afghanistan. To bring their puppet Alawi, Donald Rumsfeld is already saying that they may not be able to hold elections in troubled area of country. What kind of democracy is that? Can you imagine holding elections in Ohio but not in Missouri? If Bush gang talk about bringing democracy to these countries then thanks, but no thanks. They can take this democracy and shove it where the sun never shines.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by skhan: *
It's not as if the Afghans had the freedom to choose a candidate they felt best represented them.
[/QUOTE]
Here's your main problem. It's one of fundamental cognitive ability.
They did have that freedom. For the first time ever.
Now, certainly some candidates will have advantages in all elections (incumbents).
But no one controlled the individuals votes except the voters themselves. See that's the freedom to choose part, Einstein.
Use your noodle, apfel strudel!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
Here's your main problem. It's one of fundamental cognitive ability.
They did have that freedom. For the first time ever.
Now, certainly some candidates will have advantages in all elections (incumbents).
But no one controlled the individuals votes except the voters themselves. See that's the freedom to choose part, Einstein.
Use your noodle, apfel strudel!
[/QUOTE]
Like Agent Smith so aptly said, if freedom means electing an American puppet "officially" thru elections then the US can shove it.
The end result is the SAME: the person the US wants will serve as the puppet. Whether that is just simply imposed on the nation or "validated" thru a mockery of elections doesn't make any difference.
Now run along, be a good boy, and watch some more Fox News.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by skhan: *
Like Agent Smith so aptly said, if freedom means electing an American puppet "officially" thru elections then the US can shove it.
The end result is the SAME: the person the US wants will serve as the puppet. Whether that is just simply imposed on the nation or "validated" thru a mockery of elections doesn't make any difference.
Now run along, be a good boy, and watch some more Fox News.
[/QUOTE]
Please explain precisely how the elections were a mockery. Do you have actual facts or does this reflect merely an inkling or more likely your profound wish. Living in Missouri, you certainly enjoy many of the trappings of American-style democracy. Let the Afghans begin to enjoy what you have or would you prefer they revert to oppressive theocracy and factionalism?
A patronizing tone should be reserved for the mature and wise, not the young and...well you know what I mean.
Well, here is how the process unfolded.
Certainly Karzai was installed after the US beat the Taliban. He was annointed interim leader. At this point in time he is clearly a "puppet".
Later, the Afghans hold a traditional "Loya Jirga", and Kazai gets a vote of confidence. Even if there is arm twisting and haggling, Karzai has accomplished something that no other has in 30 years, he is holding together the country using political skills not terror. At this point he gains legitimacy, and in my mind is no longer a "puppet"
Finally, he plans for elections and holds them. Certainly this process is one that most dictators do not go through. He holds the elections with massive international oversight, something that would NEVER happen in most Muslim countries. Should he win this election, he is an Afghan leader unlike any in the past 30 years. While still dependent on the US for money and security, he is moving along a positive path.
What other process do you think there is? Do you want the Afghans to sink back into chaos? Do you have any hope for them? At this point, Karzai has increasing legitimacy, despite the Taliban killing aid workers, killing election workers, and damaging the rconstruction at every opportunity.
The act of millions of Afghans registering to vote, and standing exposed to violence patiently (for hours) to vote is a profound statement that the Afghan people believe in this process, and are willing to risk thier lives for it... There was scattered violence in one town, including a rocket attack on an election line. After the attack, Afghans got back into line to wait for their turn!
Cheers to the Afghans, best wishes to you...
The problem with you guys is that you are dying to see the US fail, regardless of how that effects your brothers. And when your brothers have a success, you cannot cheer, if it in some way means that the US has succeeded. How hypocritical.
It will be up to the Afghan people to tell their leader to shove it skhan, not you.
The U.S. has come into Afghanistan, defeated and overthrown the Taliban and now things are getting better. No one said things are perfect but things are improving and work and fighting are far from over.
Afghanistan is improving with the help of America and that seems to piss off quite a few people around here, chalk that up to jealousy or pure blind hatred but the fact remains that the sun is rising on Afghanistan, not setting.
^ Really, how is Afghanistan improving? Care to explain. Impsoing a puppet who will at teh throw of hat sing "yes sir, yes sir, three bags full sir". Certainly improve things for America.
Since the overthrow of Taliban the poppy crop has really prospered under Karzai. Great achievement. Keep upthe good work. Furthermore Karzai will never raise the issue of thousand upon thousand of Afghans killed by daisy cutters and B52 bombers. Another improvement as far as America is concerned.
And BTW before anyone forgets the aim of attacking Afghanistan was to capture OBL and Mullah Omar. Can anyone remember what happened, they have disappeared just like the WMD's. Another achievement in Afghanistan.
And as to people telling their leader to shove it, I cannot recall America asking the people of Afghaistan thier permission before launching an attack, otherwise they would have told America where to shove it as well.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
The U.S. has come into Afghanistan, defeated and overthrown the Taliban
[/QUOTE]
I am afraid the Taliban won't agree with you there. The US Army can testify to the fact that it has no control over what happens outside Kabul. In fact, even some areas of Kabul are in no way under American control. The very fact that the elections were delayed thrice and the continuing attacks prove just how "defeated and overthrown" the Taliban really are.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Later, the Afghans hold a traditional "Loya Jirga", and Kazai gets a vote of confidence. Even if there is arm twisting and haggling, Karzai has accomplished something that no other has in 30 years, he is holding together the country using political skills not terror. At this point he gains legitimacy, and in my mind is no longer a "puppet"
[/QUOTE]
Please elaborate on his political skills. Karzai is merely running a house of cards that is propped up (barely) ONLY by American money and brute force.
Now whether he supposedly "legitmizes" himself merely by following American commands, is another issue. Even if we agree that he does do that, still doesn't change the fact that he was put there by the US NOT the Afghanis. So where is all this electoral freedom you are talking about?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
What other process do you think there is? Do you want the Afghans to sink back into chaos? Do you have any hope for them? At this point, Karzai has increasing legitimacy, despite the Taliban killing aid workers, killing election workers, and damaging the rconstruction at every opportunity.
[/QUOTE]
Hmmm, a reasonable process would be actually letting the people of the country (which you have destroyed and invaded) decide who runs for elections! Therefore, gasp, the leader actually represents the people, not someone they have to vote for because that someone has American clout. Not a difficult concept.
As for the success of our brothers, I would hardly call lawlessness a success. Infact, according to the Afghans themselves, most prefer the days of the Taliban where atleast they had some semblance of law and order. Please look for encouragement when you have actually accomplished something.
9/11 justified Americas attack on Afghanistan so the U.S. didn't bother with a permission slip.
While there have been botches by the current Bush administration in capturing Bin Laden that doesn't take away from the fact that U.S. forces have killed thousands of Taliban and Al qaeda members and supporters.
While many improvements are needed and will take years to complete and in turn see the results the fact is more children now attend school (millions of dollars in repairing schools from 30 years of conflict have made this possible) and fewer infants are dying. Polio and measles infection has declined as millions are now given shots. The number of those dying due to 30 years of conflict is going down but it is still extremely high but the fact is improvements are being made, slower than they should be perhaps but none-the-less better than before. To pretend that things were rosy under the Taliban is simply delusional.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
Please explain precisely how the elections were a mockery.
[/QUOTE]
The candidate running for elections is a hand picked "yessir" by the Americans, NOT a representative of the people.
Need I continue?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
A patronizing tone should be reserved for the mature and wise, not the young and...well you know what I mean.
[/QUOTE]
Wisdom doesn't necessarily come to all who age.....
Even the Germans agree:
Another reason to downplay or dismiss Election Day in Afghanistan is that it is clearly good news for America and its allies, who are directly responsible for this outbreak of freedom in a Muslim land.
If the mountain people of this war-ravaged nation, whose cash crop is poppies for illegal opium, can stand up to their tormentors and grasp the powers of democracy, their example will offer hope to the better-educated Iraqis sitting on their nation’s sea of oil. Afghanistan would be the first good domino to tip over.
When the Afghan president Hamid Karzai visited here a few months ago, he told us of his hopes to persuade some 7 million of the 10 million eligible Afghan voters to register. He underestimated his people’s hunger for representative government: despite threats to registration centers, and in the face of assassination attempts on the lives of candidates, over 10 million Afghans have registered, plus 2 million more in Afghan refugee camps in Pakistan and Iran.
That’s a political miracle. It also does not add up; some people are apparently registering more than once. (“Vote early and often” is supposed to be a joke. U.S. pollsters have never measured an electorate in which likely voters outnumber registered voters.)
But the indisputable fact of the enthusiasm for voting is what is so heartening. Afghans look with wonderment at their secret ballot, and take real risks for the freedom Americans take for granted.
:rotfl: