Accepting homosexuals

[picoico]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@uberalles

Seminole , YOU ARE A GOOD HUMAN BEING, YOU HAVE MORE QUALITIES OF GOD IN YOU THAN MANY WHO STUDY FROM QURAN, HADITHS AND SUNNAH. THANK YOU FOR BEING MODERN , CIVILIZED AND COMAPSSIONATE HUMAN AND NOT A HISTORICAL ARTIFACT GUIDED BY RELIGOUS ZEALOUSNESS AND ITS PROPENSITY TO DISPENSE HATRED ON A MISGUIDED PATH OF DOING GOD'S DEEDS.

Oh such love for the traditionalists...spare us...the rant and the caps-lock....

[picoico]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@Seminole

Sorry, but it does. You can't expect people to smile at you and say good morning to you when you growl and give them dirty looks every morning.

No, it doesn't. I'm not growling, or giving anyone a dirty look. I'm merely saying that they're leading sinful and disgusting (in the eyes of God) lives. If they want to keep it to themselves, that is all fine and dandy. That is the essence of toleration.

Everything else you say equally applies to YOU and your attitudes towards the religious, who are simply trying to live their lives in accordance with God's teachings.

Live and let live? Not for us, apparently....

[quote]

And you can't expect someone to be tolerant of your beliefs if you are not tolerant of theirs.

[/quote]

You're obviously not tolerant of mine....so...unh...

[quote]

Many people, including those who truly follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible, would define "moral" by their tolerance, love and forgiveness of others. So I stand by my statement that I have met many homosexuals who could be considered more moral than many fundamentalists who claim moral superiority.

[/quote]

Homosexuals are not a "people" as in an ethnicity...they're only commonality is a sexual practice, and that is what i consider sinful. If you disagree, fine...but clearly you do more than disagree...you villify. So be it.

No guff people who sin can otherwise do good deeds. Conflating the two is disingenuous. My problem with homsexuals isn't their good deeds...it's their sin. Further, if they do it behind closed doors, it's their business. You shoving it down my throat as 'acceptable' is neither toleration nor tolerable.

Further, it's very well possible that a conservative person YOU won't like in regards to this issue is a very good human being, who brings light and hope to thousands. Mother Theresa...Ehdi....no, they're scum! Works both ways dear...

But that's okay...one standard for others, and another for us...I get it....

[quote]

In the West (where there are many more homosexuals than Muslims) when a fundamentalist tells others they hate them, are insignificant in the eyes of God, nasty, should be avoided, immoral or should be stoned to death, please don't be surprised or compain if you are not trusted, not given a job or given dirty looks for your beliefs or way of life which can also be judged based on closed-minded, self righteous beliefs.

[/quote]

So basically, it's us or the gays. So it's okay to be closed minded and bigoted to us...

Again, I don't view homosexuals as a 'people', but rather as an act. Your endless emoting simply carries no currency.

If in your rant above I replaced Muslims with Gays, you'd be up in arms...but you say it against Muslims with such ease...which is why I really can't take what you have to say seriously. You're a bigot. One who self-righteously and close-mindedly dissmisses us. Oh, the irony...

[quote]

Just because you derive your intolerance from your interpretation of ancient texts doesn't make them more valid than the other guy's belief system. His set of beliefs can be just as deeply held as yours.
[/quote]

I dont' care for the other guy's belief system. I don't even comment on it. I have my own, and to you yours. That is tolerance.

[Captain1]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@Seminole

Just as the definition of 'morality' is subjective, so are the attributes that define morality. I trust that if you are in favor of throwing someone off a cliff or toppling a wall on him that you indeed think he is corrupted and not righteous. In someone else's opinion there are many attributes in that list that a fundamentalist Muslim does not posess.

Thats what I am saying that some attributes which YOU think helps qualify a gay as "moral" while per Islam a gay does not qualify as "moral".

[quote]
If I ever met a gay that said 1/2 the things about Muslims or any other group as are said about gays here, I would totally lose respect for him and not include him in my list of moral people I have met.
[/quote]
I think you are confusing "morality" with some other attributes of human being :)

[Seminole]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@picoico

If they want to keep it to themselves, that is all fine and dandy. That is the essence of toleration.

The essence of toleration is to keep who they are to themselves? As long as their religion is left out of that equation and then you can announce it to the world with your dress, facial hair, language and surnames?

[quote]
Everything else you say equally applies to YOU and your attitudes towards the religious, who are simply trying to live their lives in accordance with God's teachings.
[/quote]
If you want to live life according to your interpretation of God's teachings, no one would have a beef with that. As I said, just don't expect to be treated any differently than you treat those you find disgusting.

[quote]
Homosexuals are not a "people" as in an ethnicity...they're only commonality is a sexual practice, and that is what i consider sinful. If you disagree, fine...but clearly you do more than disagree...you villify. So be it.
[/quote]
Muslims are not a 'people' as in an ethncity either. And Muslms aren't born Muslim like homosexuals are born gay. It is not their sexual practice *that is common among them, it is their sexual *orientation. Many choose to practice heterosexuality.

[quote]
No guff people who sin can otherwise do good deeds. Conflating the two is disnegenious. My problem with homsexuals isn't their good deeds...it's their sin. Further, if they do it behind closed doors, it's their business. You shoving it down my throat as 'acceptable' is neither toleration nor tolerable.
[/quote]
No one is advocating public sex, only the right to live their lives as do all others. Not having to hide who they are because it offends your sense of right and wrong. You shoving your preferred lifestyle down others' thrats is not tolerant or tolerable.

[quote]
Further, it's very well possible that a conservative person YOU won't like is a very descent human being, who brings light and hope to thousands. Mother Theresa...Ehdi....no, they're scum!
Works both ways dear...
[/quote]
Who said a convervative person can't be a decent human being? I think it is the Muslims on this board that say a decent, conservative, thoughtful, giving person will go to hell unless they are Muslim. I wouldn't pretend to make that judgment.

[quote]
So basically, it's us or the gays. So it's okay to be closed minded and bigoted to us...
[/quote]
No, just don't expect respect or tolerance if you don't practice it yourself.

[quote]
I dont' care for the other guy's belief system. I don't even comment on it. I have my own, and to you yours. That is tolerance.
[/quote]
You very obviously do care and comment on the other guys belief system. This thread is full of condemnation and disgust on others' belief system.

[Seminole]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@Captain1

Thats what I am saying that some attributes which YOU think helps qualify a gay as "moral" while per Islam a gay does not qualify as "moral".

I think you are confusing "morality" with some other attributes of human being :)

No, I think you are equating your version of morality with some universal definition and that is not the case.

[picoico]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@musk

I always say its so easy to hate others...why waste your energy hating anyone. jahan tak baat rahi gunnah ki...well this is between Allah and the individual, why do we need to judge anyone. If they were harming you than sure go ahead and hate them as much as you want, but what they do in the private of their bedroom is no one business so leave them alone.

Well, if that were the case, there would be no issue, now would there?

Consider the claim that people who self-identify as homosexuals just want to be left alone. Perhaps. But then, those who are vocal want to be accepted. Legally, socially, the whole gambit. It's a lot more intrusive and in your face than "my business in the bedroom", which I'm perfectly comfortable with. It's in the courtrooms, it's on the TV, it's in my face. Not so comfortable.

[picoico]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@Seminole

No, I think you are equating your version of morality with some universal definition and that is not the case.

Are you suggesting your version is universal?

[picoico]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@Seminole

The essence of toleration is to keep who they are to themselves? As long as their religion is left out of that equation and then you can announce it to the world with your dress, facial hair, language and surnames?

Bad example, unless people have a particular problem with dress, facial hair, etc. that is akin to Christian/Muslim problems with Homosexuality. Some do, and Muslims invariably loose out...at least in the West. And in case you want to speak past the original point: not tolerating what YOU consider intolerant still makes you a bigot.

[quote]

If you want to live life according to your interpretation of God's teachings, no one would have a beef with that. As I said, just don't expect to be treated any differently than you treat those you find disgusting.

[/quote]

Clearly if the world were filled with your type, I'd be on the loosing end.

[quote]

Muslims are not a 'people' as in an ethncity either. And Muslms aren't born Muslim like homosexuals are born gay. It is not their sexual practice *that is common among them, it is their sexual *orientation. Many choose to practice heterosexuality.

[/quote]

Oh spare me. There is enough nonsensical science surrounding Homosexuality, not to mention troublesome old bi-sexuality, to raise serious questions on the "born" gay nonsense. Or have you forgotten your own asexual youth?

Muslims are identifiable through their ethnicity, and certainly do have more commonality than a sexual habbit, which would simply make us 'heterosexuals'...and not Muslims....

[quote]

No one is advocating public sex, only the right to live their lives as do all others. Not having to hide who they are because it offends your sense of right and wrong. You shoving your preferred lifestyle down others' thrats is not tolerant or tolerable.

[/quote]

Some of us don't have the convenience of a closet to hide in dear. Otherwise, I'm pretty darn good at kepping to myself and not imposing, and certainly not socially blackmailing people on pain of becomming parriahs to internalize my PERSONAL views.

The vast majority of society does NOT accept Islam...they think it's FALSE, wrong, some even hurtful...yet here I am...not saying a peep...

[quote]

Who said a convervative person can't be a decent human being? I think it is the Muslims on this board that say a decent, conservative, thoughtful, giving person will go to hell unless they are Muslim. I wouldn't pretend to make that judgment.

[/quote]

The point was that the argument works both ways, and in bothc cases the problem is not with what we consider "good" in the person, but what we consider "bad".

The people I mentioned were definitely of the same mindset as I on homosexuals. Deal with it...

[quote]

No, just don't expect respect or tolerance if you don't practice it yourself.

[/quote]

Back at you.

[quote]

You very obviously do care and comment on the other guys belief system. This thread is full of condemnation and disgust on others' belief system.
[/quote]

No, not at all. You are free to demonize as you like, of course....

[Hum_Hain]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

still no answer to my question

[Captain1]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@Seminole

No, I think you are equating your version of morality with some universal definition and that is not the case.

Me? read my replies again, I specifically said what Islam said, I didn’t say the “universal definition” of morality. BTW, Christians (may be not all sect, but a big chunk) , Jews and Hindus also consider gays as immoral

[Seminole]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@Captain1

Me? read my replies again, I specifically said what Islam said, I didn’t say the “universal definition” of morality. BTW, Christians (may be not all sect, but a big chunk) , Jews and Hindus also consider gays as immoral

You said: I think you are confusing “morality” with some other attributes of human being.

So you used your definition of morality to tell me I am confused about my definition.

[uberalles]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@picoico

What do you mean by "accept"? Or, "wrong" for that matter?

For the sake of consistency, we should treat them no different than others guilty of fornication, adultry, etc. We do go overboard in scorn....but then, I see no big push to "accept" fornicators, gamblers, drinkers, etc. So, I can see why this issue is a flashpoint and not the others.

I guess you would be the first to throw the stone caveman, got your Shariah book with ya?

[Captain1]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@Seminole

You said: I think you are confusing "morality" with some other attributes of human being.

So you used your definition of morality to tell me I am confused about my definition.

Read post number 35 where I told you that I am using Islamic definition to say that gays are "immoral", when you replied you didn't identify according to which standards you qualified gays as "moral". Morality didn't evolve by itself just "human being" didn't came out of nowhere. All major religions of the world have many a things in common of which the stand on gays is one.

[aneeqam]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@Hum Hain

still no answer to my question

aap nay kya poocha tha??

[hareem01]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@uberalles

less opportunity to become a hateful religious puritan if following Angelina, many could use more of her enligtenment!!!

read lajawab's post

[picoico]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@uberalles

I guess you would be the first to throw the stone caveman, got your Shariah book with ya?

Really now, is that the best you can do?

[Seminole]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@Captain1

Morality didn't evolve by itself just "human being" didn't came out of nowhere. All major religions of the world have many a things in common of which the stand on gays is one.

Your generalizations and personal beliefs again demonstrate your bias toward the definition of "morality". NO, all major religions DO NOT have their stand on gays as a common belief. Not even within individual religions.

Perhaps the conservative and fundamentalist branches of many religions have similar opinions, but that there is no consensus about homosexuality for the most part. It has only been since 1950 that homosexuality has been seriously studied by researchers and forward thinking groups within religions have been relatively quick to incorporate scientific findings with their religious and moral beliefs.

Some religions as a group have been more forward thinking than others as a few have still not gone through any type of reformation since their ancient texts were revealed. There is much more consensus on the evils of homosexuality within those groups to be sure. But others now regard homosexuality as an unchosen sexual orientation - ethically neutral - and is normal and natural for a minority of people.

So you are right about one thing - the term of morality *is *evolving.

[Captain1]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

@Seminole

Your generalizations and personal beliefs again demonstrate your bias toward the definition of "morality". NO, all major religions DO NOT have their stand on gays as a common belief. Not even within individual religions.

"personal beliefs"? where? who? I am talking about "Islamic belief" system, its not that personal you know :)... My bias? Of course I am a Muslim and I will first look into what Islam says about an issue. Why are the "fundamentalist" (perhaps Catholics) Christians against gays? Do you find approval of gays in Judaism, Hinduism? May be you can show me where they do :)

[quote]
Perhaps the conservative and fundamentalist branches of many religions have similar opinions, but that there is no consensus about homosexuality for the most part. It has only been since 1950 that homosexuality has been seriously studied by researchers and forward thinking groups within religions have been relatively quick to incorporate scientific findings with their religious and moral beliefs.
[/quote]

Homosexuality is not a recent phenomena, you can find stories of old nation(s) destroyed because they indulged in homo-activities. What you term as "forward thinking group" are the ones who are ready to give up their faith for their personal whims/desires, they are not really followers of religion but followers of their own desire who chose to call themselves followers of a religion, some are born into a follower family.

[AQ]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

Captain 1 Sahib:

Last night, I had a little argument in General Forum with someone regarding the issue of “turning your face towards Ka’aba” … Surely the command is in Surah Al Baqarah [142-144] …

But the person started having arguments and twisting words and interpreting the religion on his/her own as if the command of Allah:swt: and the Sunnah of His prophet:saw: and prophet’s companion (RA) is not a means of guidance… I was shocked at that.. tried to explain but the person kept coming with bizzare explanation… during that argument, I received a PM from a brother, whose last words were these:

I recall a quote (perhaps by Ibn Katheer)
“…one who does not have knowledge but acts upon it resemble the Christians, whereas one who has the knowledge and does not act upon it resemble the Jews”

Ma AsSalaam!

[hareem01]

Re: Accepting homosexuals

very wise comment of ibn Kathir..........would you like to mention the brother's name please.