Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

[BOY-NICE]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

khaneh, you didnt get my point, I think I should have been more specefic. okay, see a person with the slightest intelligence would know that the text of one’s school is highly influenced by the founder (s) of that school and the plethora of text is can be sourced back founder (s) via the pioneer scholars. For example the principle books of Hanafi, Hanbali, Shafi and Maliki madhabs contain praise, statements and arguments put forward by their respective founders/Imams.

Now see the principle hadees books of Ahle Sunnah (like the Saha Satta) that are replete with major Nasibi and Khariji narrators, not only that but the Imams of Ahle Sunnah praised such filthy and blasphemous individuals and had no shame or hesitation in grading such individuals as ‘authentic’ sources for deriving their religious teachings from.

Thats was the point I have been trying to refer to.

No offence intended.

[armughal]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

Btw, I am still waiting for the answer of the roots of Sunni fiqh, the roots which lies in Nasibism and Kharijism.

sunnis r the muslims who stayed on the path of the Prophet (saw) and his noble companions....

khawarij were the first group to deviate from the right path....

and nasibis r similar to shiaas....
shiaas curse the noble companions of the Prophet (saw) and so do the nasibis....
the difference being the choice of the companions for cursing....

while sunnis dont curse any companion of the Prophet (saw)....
so if u wish to compare nasibis, compare them to shiaas, not with sunnis....

[BOY-NICE]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

@armughal

sunnis r the muslims who stayed on the path of the Prophet (saw) and his noble companions....

khawarij were the first group to deviate from the right path....

and nasibis r similar to shiaas.... shiaas curse the noble companions of the Prophet (saw) and so do the nasibis.... the difference being the choice of the companions for cursing....

while sunnis dont curse any companion of the Prophet (saw).... so if u wish to compare nasibis, compare them to shiaas, not with sunnis....

If Nawasib and Khawarij were so notorious and worst (which is the fact) then why the heck your pioneer ulema (who laid the foundation of your school by giving them books to follow) accessed to those people in order to derive religious teachings from them (hadeeths)??? On the top of that, your Imams deemed those filthy people as "thiqa" narrators. Why your ancestors (pioneer ulema) had such a close ties with them and now today your generation fail to carry on with the same bond?

I have made it clear several times that in order to know about the beliefs of any sect, just check their principle books, and its not the material of the books that will show you their beliefs rather the people mentioned and narrated things in these books, and in case of Ahle Sunnah, we see that those characters in the principle books are nawasib and khawarij, so it can be easily deduced that you adhere to those people via your principle books.

Simple is that!

[armughal]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

the rafidis believe they can lie under the taqiya rule....
but with the khawarij lying is a big sin and they deem a liar as a kafir, hence their narrations r not considered as a lie....

[BOY-NICE]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

@armughal

the rafidis believe they can lie under the taqiya rule.... but with the khawarij lying is a big sin and they deem a liar as a kafir, hence their narrations r not considered as a lie....

:)

Frist of all its not only Rafidhis who believe in Taqqiyah rather anyone who believes in Quran, believes in the doctrine of Taqqiyah.

Secodnly, Khawarij were the enemies of Ali [as]. The one who hates/curse Ali bin Abi Talib [as] is called Nasibi and such a person is Munafiq (hypocrite) according to both Shias and Sunnies, and Quran tells us the definition of Munafiq i.e one who hides falsehood in his heart but pretend to be a beleiver (2:14), and Allah [swt] comapres Munafiq with Iblees, and yet you guys coming out with a notion that Khawarij are 'truthful' just because they themselves claim so? Waaah !!

Doesnt Allah [swt]'s injunction means anything to you? He [swt] is saying Muafiq is like Iblees and you are saying they are truthful!!

Hence you shouldnt mind if I call Nasibism and Khawarijism as the roots of your school.

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

Salam bro BOY-NICE,

First off, Khawariji was a general term used by the Umayyads to label all those who were resisting the dynasty. In my opinion, this included several groups with varying opinions and ideologies.

Second, according to tradition, Umayyads themselves used to curse Ali after congregation prayers. This is further (seemingly) evident according to Sah'l bin Sa'd as narrated in Sahih Muslim. But then, "Ali" cannot be the bone-of-contention between the Kawarijites and Umayyads to begin with...

Third, if a group cursed Ali, that does not make them "munaafiq" since they were doing it openly... how else (supposedly) would there be a record of it?

@BOY-NICE

Secodnly, Khawarij were the enemies of Ali [as]. The one who hates/curse Ali bin Abi Talib [as] is called Nasibi and such a person is Munafiq (hypocrite) according to both Shias and Sunnies, and Quran tells us the definition of Munafiq i.e one who hides falsehood in his heart but pretend to be a beleiver (2:14), and Allah [swt] comapres Munafiq with Iblees, and yet you guys coming out with a notion that Khawarij are 'truthful' just because they themselves claim so? Waaah !!

[Contra]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

@khaneh

I have attented many majalis with honesty of being really optimistic and neutral and i have discovered one thing that you guys really dont respect ahle bait and i can tell you the reason for it. whereas obviously i am a sunni and i attented majalis for sunni maulanas too, they have a shortage of knowledge in many areas of islam as well.

Funny, I have attended plenty of majalis as well and I have yet to hear ANY maulana show disrespect to the Ahl-e-Bait - H. Imam Ali(as), H.Fatima(sa), H. Imam Hasan(as) and H. Imam Hussain(as).

You're really clutching at non=existent straws.

stick to the topic, abdulla bin saba, the man who originated the rafidi firqa by false elevation of Ali (ra) to a prophet and then also to God himself....

You want to stick to ibn Saba?

Sorry mate but ibn Saba is a fantasy from the mind of Sayf bin Umar.

I'm surprised that you haven't bothered to read that part of this thread.

[armughal]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

@BOY-NICE

:) Doesnt Allah [swt]'s injunction means anything to you? He [swt] is saying Muafiq is like Iblees and you are saying they are truthful!!

Hence you shouldnt mind if I call Nasibism and Khawarijism as the roots of your school.

the munafiq label is being given by u, not Allah....
so ur whole logic is flawed....

nasibis r same as shiaas, in that they curse the companions of the Prophet (saw)....
maybe shiaas r worse cuz they dont only curse but then also do shirk....

khawarij have been the enemies of Islam from they day they emerged....
that u shud associate sunnis with them just shows ur ignorance....

kabhi to koyee aqal ki baat kar liya karo....

[BOY-NICE]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

salam hypnotix-2000

@hypnotix-2000

Salam bro BOY-NICE,

First off, Khawariji was a general term used by the Umayyads to label all those who were resisting the dynasty. In my opinion, this included several groups with varying opinions and ideologies.

Yes, but here when we use the term Khawarij, it refers to those who rebelled, hated, faught and eventually killed Ali bin Abi Talib [as].

[QUOTE]

Second, according to tradition, Umayyads themselves used to curse Ali after congregation prayers. This is further (seemingly) evident according to Sah'l bin Sa'd as narrated in Sahih Muslim. But then, "Ali" cannot be the bone-of-contention between the Kawarijites and Umayyads to begin with...

[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I could'nt follow.

[QUOTE]
Third, if a group cursed Ali, that does not make them "munaafiq" since they were doing it openly... how else (supposedly) would there be a record of it?
[/QUOTE]

I think you have a small misconception here. Dear, The abuser of Ali [as] being Munafiq doesnt have to do with the nature of abuse/curse i.e hidden or public, rather it was a bounty that has been bestowed on Ali bin Abi Talib [as] by Allah [swt] that whoever abuse/curse Ali bin Abi Talib [as] is Munafiq, or you can say that its other way round, Allah [swt] has made the hatred for Ali [as] as a sign of Munafiqeen, and thats what Sahaba used to say:

Abu Said al Khudri:

*"We recognized the hypocrites by their hatred of Ali." *

1. Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, volume 2 page 639 Tradition 1086
2. al-Isti'ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, volume 3 page 47
3. Al-Estidkar, by ibn Abdulbar, volume 8 page 446 (narrated from Jabir)
4. Muwadeh awham al-Jame wa al-Tafriq, by al-Khatib al-Baghdadi, volume 1 page 41
5. Al-Manaqib, by al-Khawarezmi page 232
6. Dakhaer al-Uqba, by al-Tabari page 91
7. Tarikh al-Khulafa, Imam-Suyuti page 66
8. Meftah al-Naja, by Allamah al-Bedakhsi, page 43
9. Al-Qaul al-Fasl, by Alawy al-Hadhrami , volume 1 page 448
10. Arjah al-Matalib, by Allamah Ubaidallah Amrtsri, page 513
11. al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhibb al-Tabari, volume 3 page 242

**"Loving Ali is the sign of belief, and hating Ali is the sign of hypocrisy"
**Sahih Muslim, v1, p48;
Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643;Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p142;
Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v1, pp 84,95,128
Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202
Hilyatul Awliya', by Abu Nu'aym, v4, p185
Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v14, p462

I hope I have made my point.

Thank you.

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

@BOY-NICE

Yes, but here when we use the term Khawarij, it refers to those who rebelled, hated, faught and eventually killed Ali bin Abi Talib [as].

Yes but I am not going by the shiite or sunni definition bro...

@BOY-NICE

*"We recognized the hypocrites by their hatred of Ali." *

1. Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, volume 2 page 639 Tradition 1086 2. al-Isti'ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, volume 3 page 47 3. Al-Estidkar, by ibn Abdulbar, volume 8 page 446 (narrated from Jabir) 4. Muwadeh awham al-Jame wa al-Tafriq, by al-Khatib al-Baghdadi, volume 1 page 41 5. Al-Manaqib, by al-Khawarezmi page 232 6. Dakhaer al-Uqba, by al-Tabari page 91 7. Tarikh al-Khulafa, Imam-Suyuti page 66 8. Meftah al-Naja, by Allamah al-Bedakhsi, page 43 9. Al-Qaul al-Fasl, by Alawy al-Hadhrami , volume 1 page 448 10. Arjah al-Matalib, by Allamah Ubaidallah Amrtsri, page 513 11. al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhibb al-Tabari, volume 3 page 242

**"Loving Ali is the sign of belief, and hating Ali is the sign of hypocrisy" **Sahih Muslim, v1, p48; Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643;Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p142; Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v1, pp 84,95,128 Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202 Hilyatul Awliya', by Abu Nu'aym, v4, p185 Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v14, p462

I hope I have made my point.

Thank you.

I do not recognize validity of the hadith, traditional stories and expositions of the so-called scholars... hence I do not accept this explanation.

[bitter_reality]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

The world knows...that Abdullah ibne Saba was Founder of Shia religion

[BOY-NICE]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

@bitter_reality

The world knows...that Abdullah ibne Saba was Founder of Shia religion

I think you forgot to mention the name of your school in between, let me rephrase it for you:

@bitter_reality

The Nasibi world knows...that Abdullah ibne Saba was Founder of Shia religion

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

@BOY-NICE

I think you forge

I hope this was not deliberate in your reply to bro bitter_reality

[BOY-NICE]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

@hypnotix-2000

Yes but I am not going by the shiite or sunni definition bro…

I do not recognize validity of the hadith, traditional stories and expositions of the so-called scholars… hence I do not accept this explanation.

Well, this is unanimous in both the schools, but you are entitled for your views, what can I say.

:halo:

[bitter_reality]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

Ok...here is the real story put in three four sentences:

" When the jews of Medina met utter military defeat...inhands of the Muslims they started to rethink of their strategy.....Abdullah Ibne Saba ( Former Jew) suggested that they should temporarily get converted into Muslims. The Plan was to divide muslims through conspiracy. Ibne Saba then started creating engulf between sahabas...and after the Martydom of Hazrat Omer ( Raziallah talaa) he got very bold and made this new sect called Shia. Abdullah Ibne saba was very sucessful in his conspiracies. He even succeeded in creating Jang-e-Jamal

[system]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

@zero1

. And more funny thing is when his "faisal bhai" told him that the shia he knows dont believe in incompleteness of quran, this coward totaly agreed. And in his very next post he showed his munafiqat by again acusing shia of believing in thareef in quran. May be the munafiq did'nt want to get ban by opposing the forum Admin.

the real problem with yoyu people is that ...i cannot check with any instrument that whats you saying is actually within in its heart...even a person says that he is son of his parents...but be in heart as a concept of illegitimate...and then give its rank that Taqiyya is 9/10 part of emman and only 1 part is other things as rozza ..namaz zakat etc...!!!!!!!

[system]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

@bitter-reality

" When the jews of Medina met utter military defeat...inhands of the Muslims they started to rethink of their strategy.....Abdullah Ibne Saba ( Former Jew) suggested that they should temporarily get converted into Muslims. The Plan was to divide muslims through conspiracy. Ibne Saba then started creating engulf between sahabas...and after the Martydom of Hazrat Omer ( Raziallah talaa) he got very bold and made this new sect called Shia. Abdullah Ibne saba was very sucessful in his conspiracies. He even succeeded in creating Jang-e-Jamal

you put it in the best summarized possible way....

[deer]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

@dawa_i_dil

^ great proofs from khanbabax.....

shias think that the whole world's historian are mad or fools ...who do not know about Ibne Saba...

you just want us all to hate and kil each otehr dont u!

you will not let up!

i keep seeing these pots! this is all you do all day long! u bad outh one group! so that one group then hates your group and now the hatred spreads thanx to you!

and we kill each other even more! really who cares! you think you are converting shias with this? do u? do u think u are making shias out there think oh yea the man has a point we must be mad or fools!?!!!

do u think you are doing anything that is productive! well in case u are confused genius.... u are not being productive - only creating divisions and strife! and hatred b/t the two biggest sects of Islam thus creating division and violence!

what the hel* is wrong with you! why cant u just stop!!! are the bloodbaths not enuff! maybe more ppl need to die!

are u seeing whats happening around the world! the death tolls amongst Muslims! but i guess your bits of information are more important! even though they are irrelevant and make no difference except for create diffrence!

[BOY-NICE]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

Ok...here is the real story put in three four sentences:

" When the jews of Medina met utter military defeat...inhands of the Muslims they started to rethink of their strategy.....Abdullah Ibne Saba ( Former Jew) suggested that they should temporarily get converted into Muslims. The Plan was to divide muslims through conspiracy. Ibne Saba then started creating engulf between sahabas...and after the Martydom of Hazrat Omer ( Raziallah talaa) he got very bold and made this new sect called Shia. Abdullah Ibne saba was very sucessful in his conspiracies. He even succeeded in creating Jang-e-Jamal

Dont become second dawa_i_dil who is fond of writing sentences over sentences from his own like a story without any references. The bottom line is, if anyone with some shame deem that Shia sect was started by a Jew, then he is indirectly sayingthat Allah [swt] gives glad tidings of paradise to Jews, (becasue there are traditions in praise of the Shia of Ali).

@dawa_i_dil

the real problem with yoyu people is that ...i cannot check with any instrument that whats you saying is actually within in its heart...even a person says that he is son of his parents...but be in heart as a concept of illegitimate...and then give its rank that Taqiyya is 9/10 part of emman and only 1 part is other things as rozza ..namaz zakat etc...!!!!!!!

Atleast the concept of Taqqiyah is in Quran and Sunnah nad is proven by Sunni Imams, while the problem with people like you is that they apply certain rules over Shias for beliefs that they think are wrong, but you would never apply same rule to your ancestors who were invovled in similar beliefs, and that is the munafiqat legacy you have inherited from generation to generation.

[zer01]

Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

the real problem with yoyu people is that ...i cannot check with any instrument that whats you saying is actually within in its heart...even a person says that he is son of his parents...but be in heart as a concept of illegitimate...and then give its rank that Taqiyya is 9/10 part of emman and only 1 part is other things as rozza ..namaz zakat etc...!!!!!!!

So basically you were doing Taqiyya when you made this statement:

thankyou faisal bhai for your reply...i agree with you...most of shias believe in quran as 100 % right as you mentioned..Allah is its revealer and saviour as in quran...and allah tala cannot say wrong...this is speciality of this last and final book ...rest all are altered ..but this will inshallah never ever be altered ..inshallah...i belive this thing as i belive that i have to die one day....this quran we have is 100% what was revealed on muhammad(pbuh)....not even a dot is missing....

waisay, It actually makes me feel sorry for the level of ignorance and munafiqat that you are showing. May Allah (swt) help us all.