Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

i suggest you to read 5 books of Allama Ehsan Zaheer ...also allother shias should read ....inshallah...they will see the light of imaan...ameen...

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

Once again a lengthy lecture from your side that has nothing to do with the topic.

First of all, you are again going against the teachings of Allah [swt] and his prophet [s] by calling someone else as “best creation” but not those who were really called as “best creation” by Allah and his prophet. We read in Quran:

“Those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of the creatures. Their reward from their Lord shall be everlasting gardens, below which flow rivers, they will abide there forever. Well pleased is God with them and they are well pleased with Him”
Quran 98:7

I wont say anything, you just yourself can see the famed tafseers of your school and see that who are those being referred to as “best creation” in the above ayah.

Tafseer Dur al Manthoor by Imam Jalaluddin Suyuti
Tafseer Tabari, vol 12 page 657
Tafseer Fathul Qadeer by Imam Shawkani, Vol 5 page 673

As for you claim of loving all Sahaba is concerned, that it was just few posts earlier that you haid testified: "regarding what ibne saba and how he decieved so many great sahabas…" so you mwant to say you love those sahabha as well which according you your insane logic came under the influence of a Jew, such weak was their iman !

By the way, your claim of loving all Sahabah WILL NEVER include Ahlylbayt [as] and Ali bin Abi Talib [as] in particular as long as you cdo not denounce those authors/books that contain the teachigs of notorious Nasibi and Khawarij (the open enemies of Ali, ur 4th caliph). It is like saying that you love both Firown and Mosa at the same time. It shows nothing but hypcricy, believe me.

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

So what he wrote is an example of Im,an for you right? Good for you then. But as for your suggestion, then no thanx. What i can do is to curse the pathetic creature who believed and wrote that a jew was so influential that he even shaked the belief of a companion of prophet [s], the one for whom it was said:
“Heaven has not shaded, nor has the earth carried a person more straight forward than Abu Dhar. He walks on earth with the immaterialistic attitude of Jesus, the son of Mary.”

And then when it comes for the sahaba who were against Ahlulbayt [as], the very author will come yapping the slogan of “Respect Sahabah”. So, no thanx, I cannot afford to read books of such a hypcocrite.

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

agreed

[quote]
again the same...the jewish nature ...we all know that...moreover...he first went to Egypt...as at that time...politically...the provinces were trying to be more autonomous...people were against the strong federation...as we see today in Pakistan what MQM is demanding
[/quote]

yeah but syria was the first province that broke away from the caliphate ....if the iraqi rebels had wanted autonomy they would have just stayed in their capitals and defended them [much like muawiyah later did]...made no military sense to march to medina allegedly heart of uthman's power] and give their greviences...and expose themselves to the 'loyalists of the caliph.

[quote]
....all these factors join to form Egypt the suitable place for Ibne Saba to start his sbai movement....he pretended to be very pious and mutaqqi...his mother was from iran...
[/quote]

and iran was mostly sunni till safavids came from azerbaijan ...

[quote]

so i iran...the ruler or leader was considered as god-man ....halloliat of allah in him...his obedience is "MUST".....he is noor of allah...(what we see in mughal history ...akbar....Zilah-e-Illahi..means the shadow of allah..Zilah-e-Subhani...means the shadow of subhan means allah...the same concepts...here also).......

[/quote]

no evidence of that in the caliphate of Ali , rather it was ummayyads who used
mal-eAllah, Khalifah of Allah , will of Allah....to justify their misdeeds

such concepts arose amongst the shia much later and led to the genesis of the ghulat sects some of their practices though did later infiltrate into mainstream shiaism esp. in India.
In India some mughal rulers sought the support of orthodox sunni ulemas for rivalry with safavids over kandhar , safavids in turn made dehli hotbed of intrigues by planting courtiers with shia inclinations there.Also the safavids faced a sunni ottoman empire in the west
Thus sunni vs shia divide became much like the european sectarian 30yrs war.religion used for political purposes

[quote]
these two concepts joined by ibne saba to divide muslims...break thier conquests
[/quote]
..most of the soldiers who participated in conquests also took part in the revolution and if people had supported Ali rather than fighting him their would have been no break in conquest

.
[quote]
take revenge of jewish killings in khyber and madina...and expeltion from arab...hatred against muhammad(pbuh)....
[/quote]

Ali killed most of these jews why did they choose Ali then as their leader?
also their capitalistic system was opposed by Ali[as]

...

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

[quote]

***Hadhrat Abu Zar invited people to do things which had been done neither by the companions of the Prophet peace be upon him nor by Muslims rulers. Even Hadhrat Ali during his tenure failed to act out these eccentricities. In other words, Hadhrat Abu Zar was asking people to do the impossible. *

The views and opinions of Hadhrat Abu Zar were marked by a rare degree of violence. A practical demonstration of his violent nature was the amount of beating he inflicted on K’aab Ahbar….."
**
[/quote]

ammar [ra] and abuzar [ra] never acted like that under umar[ra] ....why did they all of a sudden become so "eccentric ".....why cant you accept that uthman deviated not only from Quran & sunnah but also the policies of his predecessors

ka'b ahbar is a converted jew this fake mullah is trying to defend ....and he is advisor to uthman

and what does he say about the beating of Ammar[ra] by uthman's bodyguards and exile of the Kufan Qurra?

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

brother I appreciate that we discuss in a respectful manner
and I do admit that the first 2 caliphs lived and ruled by and large within the limits of Quran and sunnah ...that is why Ali[as] did not openly oppose them but corrected them with advice even though he and his supporters felt that he was most entitled to this post.
we must remember that differences between them and Ali[as] are difficult to judge overall, shia sources exaggerate them to extreme while sunni sources are silent on this issue and show him as a trusted confident ...
Ali's[as] instances of cooperation with umar[ra] are many while with abubakr[ra] few ( but his tenure was also short)

[quote]
....they accept the cvirtues and merits of 3 caliphs however think that ali(ra) is more superior to 3 caliphs..so its is thier opinion...OK fine....as Allah knows best who is no.1 and who is no. 4 etc ec.....thats not so big issue
[/quote]

uthman ....whatever merits he had before becoming a caliph he lost them by the time of his death

[quote]
and all those people who think that after prophet(pbuh) death ..all sahabas became murtads except 3.....salman farsi..abu zar and miqdad(ra)...they are just shameful liars....blamming the prophet(pbuh) directly that his 23 years effort is so poor(naozobillah) that only 3 persons and ahle-bait(ra) accepted true islam !!!!!!! rest all were munafiqs and murtads
[/quote]

I agree that this hadith is definately forged and if some shias really believe it
then only Allah can guide them.....

[quote]

....such a shameful and vulgur blame on prophet(pbuh) and on those ...who spent thier lives..thier houses...food...gardens...wifes...children...luxuries...everything for the sake of thier beloved(pbuh) and showed the world such a great time...never to be seen before...carved out such an empire stretching in 3 continents..never to occured before......and now if some person says...only 3 remained on islam..rest all became murtads.....its better for all those who say that to admit themselves into psyco-analyst clinics...and have a life-time therapy sessions .....and still i doubt...the problem will always prevails....(wo jis ko chatah hai hidayat daita hai jis ko hata gumrah karta hai ...)

[/quote]

bro carving out an empire was not the greatness of sahaba even timur and attila did that] ....rather carving out an empire AND governing it by islamic principles is the real challenge and NOT compromising the faith for statecraft
...this was a challenge even in the time of early caliphs why else did you think umar[ra] always carried his whip?

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

its because ali(ra) did not take the qasaas of usman(ra) from murderes...

and iran was mostly sunni till safavids came from azerbaijan ...

[/quote]

ibne saba went from egypt to kufa and kufa became the centre of turmoil....and savfaid by force converted many sunnis ..killed them or exiled them...the iraq was real centre of shiaism...in abbasids...also..baramka...anvcient persians..and all that...

i agree...muavia(ra) used to call that mal-e-allah..."ghali" ..means that make ghulu became prominet in iraq..and latter in iran....and also in Lucknow...asif jah etcc etc...and hyderabad dhakkhan...

[quote=dasreich]

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

[quote]
..most of the soldiers who participated in conquests also took part in the revolution and if people had supported Ali rather than fighting him their would have been no break in conquest

[/quote]

no shabi great and prominent took part in revolution...or revolt...rather opposed it..

[quote]
Ali killed most of these jews why did they choose Ali then as their leader?
also their capitalistic system was opposed by Ali[as]

[/quote]

thier enemity allows them to make thier willan as hero...the ultimate loss was of muslims...not jews...

2nd Semi-Final: Pakistan v Australia - May 14, 10
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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

[quote]
uthman ....whatever merits he had before becoming a caliph he lost them by the time of his death

[/quote]

some political mistakes..but most of exagerration by sabais...

[quote]
brother I appreciate that we discuss in a respectful manner
and I do admit that the first 2 caliphs lived and ruled by and large within the limits of Quran and sunnah ...that is why Ali[as] did not openly oppose them but corrected them with advice even though he and his supporters felt that he was most entitled to this post.
we must remember that differences between them and Ali[as] are difficult to judge overall, shia sources exaggerate them to extreme while sunni sources are silent on this issue and show him as a trusted confident ...
Ali's[as] instances of cooperation with umar[ra] are many while with abubakr[ra] few ( but his tenure was also short)

[/quote]

i agree..but differences are always there as in MQM and PML(Q)..both are allies...differences no matter...and may be sometimes..ali(ra) was at fault in differece of opinions...its just part of politics....

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

[quote]
bro carving out an empire was not the greatness of sahaba even timur and attila did that] ....rather carving out an empire AND governing it by islamic principles is the real challenge and NOT compromising the faith for statecraft
...this was a challenge even in the time of early caliphs why else did you think umar[ra] always carried his whip?

[/quote]

4 caliphs..and also some from muavia(ra) held the golden principles of islam...later..situation change...and vesr of quran..if you will obey allah...llah will make you the owner of his land...and give his khazana to you..some sort of this...so this verse happened in 4 and muavia(ra) .

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

[quote]
....and savfaid by force converted many sunnis ..killed them or exiled them...
[/quote]

have not read a lot about it but I dont deny that they did it ...but why just blame them alone sunni caliphs did the same to the shias in their reign as well.
this had little to do with their religion ....most of these dynasties [shia and sunni] were secular with a selected clergy much like european states in the late middle ages.They reduced religion to personal religious obligations minus all the political and economic aspects, as they knew that their despotic kingships will be in danger if people knew about the political aspects of islam.
that is why the whole episode of karbala is so important it provided inspiration for many revolts that plagued the whole umaayyad & abbassid dynasties
and btw who is responsible for making this radical change in islam from caliphate to kingship?

[quote]

..."ghali" ..means that make ghulu became prominet in iraq..and latter in iran....and also in Lucknow...asif jah etcc etc...and hyderabad dhakkhan...

[/quote]

exactly...these nawabs and others had nothing to do with the egalitarian message of the early shias....remember our conversation about shia landlords of punjab

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

all the rest is just differences in our historical sources ...you will never admit that uthman and muawiyah did those things against the interests of muslims and I will never consider them good muslims

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

brother...i do not cosider them caliphs...they are kings....i am talking about "ummayads after muavia(ra) ....and all abbasids except umar bin abdul aziz....
they just want power...money...virtually they are called caliphs..but they have nothing to do with islamic concept of caliphate...they also did on sunnis...what mansoor did with the greatest faqeeh of all times...abu hanifa...what mamoon did to imam Hanbal.....they all are kings...they used both of sunnis and shis a when thier seats demended for it...

i agree with you....

aray mairai bhai...if some mistakes..also very good deeds specially of usman(ra) ..tahts why allah will createe a "Mizan" tarazoo to do justice accordingly....
usman (ra) did whatever....qatal is only if 3 conditions...
1.adultery
2.murtad
3.qatal

and no condition applied to him...so he is mazloom maqtool...

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

^ ummayyad dynasty started with muawiyah not after him , also the exclusion of muawiyah from pious caliphate despite his being a sahabi should be noteworthy despite all the excuses given by ibn taymiyyah later on

I am not in the habit of digging up every single mistake done by every sahabi and criticizing them for it
some mistakes are understandable and should be disregarded given that the person repented and abstained from it later, such was not the case with uthman.

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

I know brother sunni ulema have also suffered, similarly shah of iran a "shia" king also oppressed the shia ulema.
Eventually the biggest division between muslims are the ones who seek this world and those who seek afterlife NOT shia and sunni.
If the Godfearing muslims amongst both shia and sunni can understand that many of our problems can be solved.

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

i agree....

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

stick to the topic, abdulla bin saba, the man who originated the rafidi firqa by false elevation of Ali (ra) to a prophet and then also to God himself....

just like mirza ghulam ahmed claimed different things, some accepted his claim of being mehdi, some accepted him being prophet, perhaps no one bought his claims of having wujdaan-e-ilahi (which he did claim)....
rafidis too bought abdulla bin saba's tales according to the extent of deviation from the truth their minds allowed....

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

Stop bing ignorant, there was no such thing as Rafidhi fiqh, the supposed followers of Ibn Saba are called Sabaies that it, and he attributed divinity to Ali [as] which has nothing to do with those are are referred to as Rafidhi.

Btw, I am still waiting for the answer of the roots of Sunni fiqh, the roots which lies in Nasibism and Kharijism.

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Re: Abdullah ibn Saba - The Myth Exposed

What the hell you talking about dont you know the roots of sunni fiqah, didnt your imam Jafar sadiq (RA) told you about it. He was considered the iman of knowledge. And Hazrat imam Hanfia (RA) was his best student. including the famous chemist (IBN_SINA) . By the way if you are so confused about the caliphs , tell me how your imams are being chosen? age, knowledge, election, ? what was the reason behind chosing iman jafar sadiq direct who was a dirrect ansistor to Hazrat ABU BAKAR (RA). Please stop this non sense debate on shiasm and sunnism, because the people who wrote different books are dead now leave us fighting between us. This is the time we unite and act as a strong nation. HaqooqALLAH baad main pehle haqooq ul ibaad hain, and i think you are not at all paying attention to these haqooq instead you are copy and pasting the things that different people have wrote in their websites and whatever they tell you in the majalis. I have attented many majalis with honesty of being really optimistic and neutral and i have discovered one thing that you guys really dont respect ahle bait and i can tell you the reason for it.
whereas obviously i am a sunni and i attented majalis for sunni maulanas too, they have a shortage of knowledge in many areas of islam as well.

The thing is Hazrat mohammad (PBUH) have said on his last khutba of Haj that " ALLAH HAS COMPLETED HIS RELIGION FOR YOU, And he chose islam as your religion. There would be no prophet after me. "
So why are we fighting for the caliphs and who is right and who is wrong , when islam is already completed that day. Bring peace to the community , stay good with people either sunni , shia or any different religion. Thanxs your brother of islam.