Historians jo kuch kahtay hain us par yaqeen nehen karlia jata, yeh dekha jata hai kay woh kin sources say kahrahay hain, Ibn Saba ki dastaan sab say ziada Saif Ibn Umar naami shaks nay bayan ki jo kay sab logon kay mutabiq jhoota aur stories bananay wala tha.
Aur jahan tak mukhaalifeen e Shia main say un jaahilon ki baat hai jo Shiasm ko yahoodiat say milanay ki nakaam koshishain kartay aain hain, to un say dastbasta yeh poochna chahta hoon kay Allah [swt] aur us kay Rasool [s] nay Ali o Shian e Ali ko jannat ki basharat di, kia woh nauzobillah yahodion ko jannat ki basharat dayrahahy thay?
Aur sab say barh kar baat yeh kay is dinya main kisi aik Sunni ko agar woh ghayratmand aur bahaya to usay yeh haq haasil hi nehen kay woh Shiyat ki roots par tanqeed kuja koi baat bhi karsakay kion kay Shiat ki aqaid Quran, Sunnat o tareekh say saabit hain jabkay khud Sunni mazhab Nasibism aur Kharijism ka charba hai, Ahle Sunnat ki 6 authentic books jin ko woh Quran kay baad behtreen guide tasleem kartay hain, Nasibi aur Khariji logon say pur hain. To jab mojooda Sunni hazraat kay aba o ajdaad Nasibi aur Khariji thay, to kia yeh ghayrat ka taqaza nehen hai kay woh dosroon main burayee dhoonnay say baaz rahain?
Mr. Contra in all his posts...just take a single point that....Tabari have written this...Tabari have written this...Tabari has written this......
when you people talk about the threat of umar (ra) of burning ali(ra) house in the beginning of abu bakr(ra) caliphate...then Tabari is very correct...very true...very authentic...HUH ....and when it talks about Ibne Saba ....suddenly its becomes a rotten egg for you.....what is this !!!!!!!
when you talk about zubair(ra) snatched sword on umar(ra) on caliphate issue ...the Tabari is excellent.....and when it mentions the meeting of Ibne Saba with Abu Durda(ra) in Damasqus ...your tongues get a lock...what is this !!!!!
my sweety .....
Your habit if not going through what your opponent posts always make you put in humilation, but by now i guess you should be habitual to it.
The issue is not of Tabari rather the notorious narrator Saif Ibn Umar, who has always been considered as a story maker. So all of your efforts of commenting on your Imam Tabari goes vain, just because you had not bothered to read the stance of the post.
yaar do not fight, this is not supreme court where case will be decided.
contra, why don't you submit your research thesis in some university for history department where it can receive some scholarly criticism. we do not have enough qualifications to disprove or prove your research.
Guys chill out, he was there or not, he is dead and not worth fighting. Let shias believe he did not exist and sunnies believe he existed. he is not worth wasting time
i fully agree with you brother..1400 years...ans tons of matrial...impossible to find 100% truth.....
again the same...the jewish nature ...we all know that...moreover...he first went to Egypt...as at that time...politically...the provinces were trying to be more autonomous...people were against the strong federation...as we see today in Pakistan what MQM is demanding....in some perspective it is good....also some faults politially of usman(ra)...some propaganda...some misconceptions...depriviation of Banu hashim for caliphate for 26 years long period....all these factors join to form Egypt the suitable place for Ibne Saba to start his sbai movement....he pretended to be very pious and mutaqqi...his mother was from iran....so its is in blood that every nabi has a assistant(wasi) after him as moosa was youshah bin noon ..so ali(ra) is also wasi....secondly...since her mother was from iran (tis is quote by greatest islamic scholar Maulana syed abul-hassan ali nadwi of Lucknow) which died 7 years before..,...commonly known as Ali Mian...
so i iran...the ruler or leader was considered as god-man ....halloliat of allah in him...his obedience is "MUST".....he is noor of allah...(what we see in mughal history ...akbar....Zilah-e-Illahi..means the shadow of allah..Zilah-e-Subhani...means the shadow of subhan means allah...the same concepts...here also).......
these two concepts joined by ibne saba to divide muslims...break thier conquests...take revenge of jewish killings in khyber and madina...and expeltion from arab...hatred against muhammad(pbuh)....to defame sahabas as a whole...so that muslims cannot feel a pride over thier golden period.....
what we see jewish media is saying about islam and muslims ...CNN and Times is saying....fundamentalist..terrorists...
my brother the same tone of jewish after 1400 years.......you cannot change thier wicked minds and tactics.....!!!!
actually from egypt..ibne saba came to damasqus and met with many people and sahabas including abu Darda(ra) and tried to convince him against the muavia(ra) on the issue of abuzar ghaffari(ra)...and blammed muavia(ra) for living like a prince and etc etc...and then atlast for usman?(ra) that he is not looking after muavia(ra)..then abu darda(ra) sai to him...who are you..from speech ..you seems to me a "jewish"...these are the words of Abu darda(ra)...one of the greatest sahaba of prophet(pbuh) .....
regarding what ibne saba and how he decieved so many great sahabas...this is what see that today USA is world power....but do we not know...who are pulling the ropes of USA...who is actually behind USA...is there is any organization who is doing all this having central office at Down Town....NY....no ......but still the whole world is spinning on thier fingers...these are invisible...but they are controlling the 6.5 billion people...do we all not know that...is this thing is so much secret !!!!!!!!!!!!!
i fully agree with you brother..1400 years...ans tons of matrial...impossible to find 100% truth.....
........
again the same...the jewish nature ...we all know that...moreover...he first went to Egypt...as at that time...politically...the provinces were trying to be more autonomous...people were against the strong federation...as we see today in Pakistan what MQM is demanding....in some perspective it is good....also some faults politially of usman(ra)...some propaganda...some misconceptions...depriviation of Banu hashim for caliphate for 26 years long period....all these factors join to form Egypt the suitable place for Ibne Saba to start his sbai movement....he pretended to be very pious and mutaqqi...his mother was from iran....so its is in blood that every nabi has a assistant(wasi) after him as moosa was youshah bin noon ..so ali(ra) is also wasi....secondly...since her mother was from iran (tis is quote by greatest islamic scholar Maulana syed abul-hassan ali nadwi of Lucknow) which died 7 years before..,...commonly known as Ali Mian...
so i iran...the ruler or leader was considered as god-man ....halloliat of allah in him...his obedience is "MUST".....he is noor of allah...(what we see in mughal history ...akbar....Zilah-e-Illahi..means the shadow of allah..Zilah-e-Subhani...means the shadow of subhan means allah...the same concepts...here also).......
these two concepts joined by ibne saba to divide muslims...break thier conquests...take revenge of jewish killings in khyber and madina...and expeltion from arab...hatred against muhammad(pbuh)....to defame sahabas as a whole...so that muslims cannot feel a pride over thier golden period.....
what we see jewish media is saying about islam and muslims ...CNN and Times is saying....fundamentalist..terrorists...
my brother the same tone of jewish after 1400 years.......you cannot change thier wicked minds and tactics.....!!!!
[/quote]
You seem to have lost it, big time!!!
I think your dil needs some dawa to help it recover from the phainty you have received regarding ibn Saba!
I really fail to see how what you just posted has anything to do with answering what Das Reich asked - I don't say this because I presume Das Reich to be shia, I don't know what he is.
But the meaningless babbling and your obsession with jews is mind boggling.
And it is interesting that at the start of your latest post you agree with Das Reich that it is impossible to be 100% certain of the truth but then go on to talk about ibn Saba as though he is a proven fact even though the reality is that he is anything but a fact.
I think you need a long drink from that water cooler your friends have got, along with the dawa, to cool your overtaxed brain.
Subhanallah. It has been centuries that the opponents of Shias have been busy venerating the Sahabah and have been asking people not to talk ill of them as they are the guides after Holy Prophet [s]. They were never tired of presenting the so called tradition which says that all sahabah are liek stars, follow any of them, etc etc. But when it comes to degrade Shia of Ali [as], these people stoop too low that they changed their ‘belief’ and have no hesitation in attacking the Sahabah and call them the followers of a Jew. So now according to our opponents Sahabah have the tendency be deviated and become murtad? If thats the case, what they have been after Shias when they just point out some of the deviations of some of the Sahabah? Double Standards! Munafiqat at its worst!
The stance of these ignorant peolpe against Abu Dar Ghaffari [ra] has come from the fithly books of the late Wahabi mullah and the follower iblees namely Ishan Ilahi Zaheer who had no hesitation in maligning one of the pious Sahabi Abu Zar Ghaffari [ra] by calling him the follower of a Jew, Zaheer’s accusation came just because Ghaffari [ra] was amongst the followers of Ali [as], and in his hatred for Ali [as], he forget the hadith of his own text.
“Heaven has not shaded, nor has the earth carried a person more straight forward than Abu Dhar. He walks on earth with the immaterialistic attitude of Jesus, the son of Mary.”
i agree..thats why i have written before that the historian Abu Makhnaf who i the only narrator of Karbala incidents…is consider as guppy by all great muhadisseens and historians…so all karbala events narated by him…almost wrong…the real things happened …and what kufis did…already discussed before…he also have written the blood-rain from sky…and many many lies…
moreover…your all great books…in which there are so-calld incidents of umar (ra) kicking in fatima(ra) belly to kill herpremature child…khalid bin waleed(ra) tried to murder ali(ra) in namaz…3 caliphs are snatchers as rophet(pbuh) orderedtheali(ra) to be his wasi…and all so called Dastan-e-Ameer Hamzas are just written by ““Majusi and Aag parast””" irani scholars of 1 and 2 centuries …3or 4 cenuries also …they had a nostalgia of great Sasasanaid empire of 2500 years shattered completely by muslims…holding to persian nationalism athat how these “rats” and “camel riders”…still toay irani call arabs the desert rats…how they could conquer Iran…so they just posed that they aacepted islam..but actually ..they had not accepted islam…they were the same “Majusi and Aag Parast”…so in hatred against sahabas..umar(ra)) …and all other sahabas …they filled the shia books with totally fake incidents…and now you people blindly follow these books …
that the real problem…my brother …you are not on ali(ra) way…i swear…you are not…
regarding which hadees…is its true..is this also mentiod in bukhari and muslim…who are its narrators…whats are thier status in isma-ul-rijal…etc etc…
I think your dil needs some dawa to help it recover from the phainty you have received regarding ibn Saba!
I really fail to see how what you just posted has anything to do with answering what Das Reich asked - I don't say this because I presume Das Reich to be shia, I don't know what he is.
But the meaningless babbling and your obsession with jews is mind boggling.
And it is interesting that at the start of your latest post you agree with Das Reich that it is impossible to be 100% certain of the truth but then go on to talk about ibn Saba as though he is a proven fact even though the reality is that he is anything but a fact.
I think you need a long drink from that water cooler your friends have got, along with the dawa, to cool your overtaxed brain.
yes brother..i agree..when there is no logical answer to reply...its the same response...i have come up with such responses many a times...not a new thing.....
""""""When truth strikes aginst falsehood......falsehood perish...for falsehood..... by its nature...... ..bound to perish """""""""""(quran)
i first have read from your definition that if some person decieves other…the other person who is being deceived becomes a “murtad”…thankyou brother…wallah…i am unaware of this fact.and definition of murtad …thankyou brother once again for this superb point…
1.where i have said that abu zar ghaffari(ra) is a follower of jew…plz. mention…thankyou …
2.where Allama Ehsan Illahi Zaheer have ever written in any of his book that abu zar ghaffari (ra) was a follower of jew or ibne sba…book…volume…pg no…plz…thankyou…
3.abuzar ghaffari(a) was against the policies most of them politically and wealth issues …of muavia(ra) …and some of usman(ra)…where it is written that abuzar (ra) was a “follower” of ali(ra)…plz…any authentic book…vol…pg.no…thankyou…
4.auzar(ra) was one of the earliest..one of the greatest and piousest sahabs of prophet(pbuh)…where i…or Allama ehsan zaheer has denied this hadees…plz..mention that place ..thankyou…
we are the most derest nation of allah…how can llahpunish us…we are the chosen people of god…we are superior to all…allah saved us from firoan…he gave us land of jeruslem…
these are the sayings of jews from 3000 years…and quran mentions this thing time and again…in sura baqra and other places…
in Tafseer-ul-Qummi …the most famous and oldest of shia tafseer is wriiten…
on qiyyamat…allah will call ali(ra)…and he will say labaik …then allah will say O ali ..enter jannah with your 11 imams …and all your followers …without any judgement…"
narrated from Imam Jaffar Sadiq
Tafseer-ul-Qummi
Volume 1
pg.128
once a man read some poetic verses in love of ali(ra) and against usman(ra)…he was a rinker…when someone asked from Imam Jaffar Sadiq…he replied…although ..he isa drinker..yet he is a lover of ali(ra) …so allah will definitely forgive him…
Rijal Kashi
pg.143
whoever weap and make people toweap on martyrdom of hussain(ra)…jannah is wajib on him…
Rijal Kashi
pg.246
so all is that .no nammaz(only 3).no roza…no zakat(already banned by shia)…no hajj(ziarat more important)…no good deeds..no abstaing from bad deeds…the thing only requires “”“”“HUB-e-ALI “””“”“”“”"
and jannah=wajib on you…
just as jews say…we are chosen people so jannah=wajib on us…
and still people are in doubt…shiaism is a “subset” of the “superset” judaism in its beliefs and thinkings…
Can you please stick to the topic ? But since you have raised a point then let me comment. First of all And who told you that each and everything about karabala has been narratedb Abu mukhnaf only?As for the blood raining from sky, tmay may be perceived as lie by the Nawasib woh just cannot afford to listen any mertis of Ahlulbayt [as], but the fact is that various Sunni scholars have recorded that event.
Again you are showing your sheer ignorance, either you have been wrongly fed by the Nasibi mullah/website or it has now become your habbit to believe any story against Shias of Ali [as]. The books which we follow have been written by the knoen Shia Imami scholars and you can check the Sunni rijal books if you have some doubts, they have also termed them as Shia Rafidhi, hence your notion of them being majoosi etc is certainly flawed.
So now I need a certificate form the follower of Nasibi and Khariji people about me being the follower of Ali [as]? Sounds ridiclous. Its like christian turning around and saying to muslims: “You are not on the way of Muhammad [s]”.
I dont know what were you trying to say here, whether you were trying to post a question or it was a comment/statement of any kind :S
Just be in our company and you will learn alot which the najis Nasibi websites wont tell you You are the one who has been excited over the text saying that Ibn Saba believed in divinity of Ali [as]. If (according to the Nasibi insane logic) some Sahaba came under the influence/teachings of Ibn Saba that obviously mean they believed in the divinity of Ali which makes one out and out murtad.
You may not have written specifically for Abu Zar [ra] but you stated**:“regarding what ibne saba and how he decieved so many great sahabas…” ,** Can you name those Sahabah? When you will trun thepages of the books of your school that have advacned the propaganda of Ibn Saba and Sahaba coming under his influence, you will come to know that one of those4 Sahabah was Abu Zar Ghaffari [ra] (which is ofcourse a lie by the Nasibi schoalrs).
I dont want to type the name of that notorious nasibi website, but you know about it, you can go there on “Hinda chaar yaar” website, and in the english section you will find a book by him with the name:Shia’s and Shiaism, there Genesis and Evolution. The ignorant molvi wrote:
"…Hadhrat Abu Zar fell into the trap laid by Abdullah bin Saba on account of his piety and simplicity and became susceptible to provocation a his hands.
**Hadhrat Abu Zar invited people to do things which had been done neither by the companions of the Prophet peace be upon him nor by Muslims rulers. Even Hadhrat Ali during his tenure failed to act out these eccentricities. In other words, Hadhrat Abu Zar was asking people to do the impossible. **
The views and opinions of Hadhrat Abu Zar were marked by a rare degree of violence. A practical demonstration of his violent nature was the amount of beating he inflicted on K’aab Ahbar….."
[QUOTE]
3.abuzar ghaffari(a) was against the policies most of them politically and wealth issues …of muavia(ra) …and some of usman(ra)…where it is written that abuzar (ra) was a “follower” of ali(ra)…plz…any%
^ just personal attacks...abuses to allma ehsan ...nawasib propaganda...and illogical reasoning...so its useless to debate ...however 95 % things have already been discussed already in 3 threads...you can checkout there...
so brother...
allah-hafiz..
la kum dinukum waliya deen...
You had no answers to my question and yet you again are bringing in your ignorance by finding like of Shiams with Judiasm while you are the one whose roots are undoubtedly lying in Nasibism and Kharijism. If my question has hurt your and have made your mouth shut, let me once again put my question, which is:
“If according to the insane Nasibi logic, Shias have any roots with Judiasm then do these people want to say that when Allah [swt] and Prophet [s] were giving glad tidings to Shias of Ali [as], they were actually giving glad tidings to Jews”?
This pessage of yours is quite useless and nothing to do with the topic.
Yes, weaping for the tragedic martyrdom of Prophet’s grandson Hussain [as] is one of the acts that contain reward, and such person is entitled for Jannah provided he doesnt commit sins. If he eanrs reward my weaping for imam Hussain [as] but on the others hands commmits some kinds of sins, he will have to pay for those sins.
And if the fact of weaping for Hussain [as] containing reward is hurting the Nasibi blood of somepeople then I shall make it clear that its not according to Shia soruces only rather famed Sunni sources also contain the very concept. Imam of Ahle Sunnah, Ahamd bin Hanbal records: "Ahmed Ben Israel told us that he saw in a book handwritten by Ahmed Bin Mohammad Bin Hanbal that Abdel Rahman Abu Amer Qthena rabieh Ben Mundhir from his father said the Hussain Bin Ali: He who’s eyes shed tears for us, God sends him to Paradise "
Hazail Sahabah, Volume 2 page 675 Hadith: 1154
Since you have been devoid of actual knowldge and seems to be highly under the Nasibi influence, you always use Qiyas for your Shia hatred, write yourself and then yourself reach to the absurd conslusions.
I have already made it clear that love of Ahllubayt [as] is an important part of faith and that is the teachings which we have received from Prophet [s], but since you people took the path of Nasibism, hence you are unaware of the importance of the mertis and rewards that Allah [sw]t has placed for loving Ahlulbayt [as]. Having said that, your notion of no namaz, roza etc will still make you enter jannah is totally the result of your faulty brain and ignorance, since there are tons of traditions in Shia text which tells us the importance of all the religious activites, namaz, roza, hajj etc and tell us all the fiqhi aspects regarding these ibadaat.
So you care alot what Jews say but dont care what Allah [swt] and Prophet [s] say! thats good. Through out your posts woh have been relying on Jewish enyclopedia, why are you so dpeendent on Jews? any good reason?
Every stance of ‘Shias of Ahlulbayt [as]’ are proven from Sunnah and Thaqlayn hence those who are trying to find links between Shiasm and Judiasm are just wasting their time. Rather they should do one important thing, they should research as to why their ancestors were open Nasibi and Khariji, why their school is based on the teachings advanced by the notorious Nasibi and Khariji people. I think no Sunni has taken birth on the planet so far who could kindly asnwer to these questions.
^ just personal attacks...abuses to allma ehsan ...nawasib propaganda...and illogical reasoning...so its useless to debate ...however 95 % things have already been discussed already in 3 threads...you can checkout there...
so brother...
allah-hafiz..
la kum dinukum waliya deen...
:) Why do you ask for proofs when you had to run away? Yuo asked me for a proof about the pathetic Ahsan Ilahi Zaheer's accusation against Abu Zar Ghaffari [ra] and when I provided his words then you certainly start realizing that 95% of the things have already been discussed :D .
Good for you.
and i wanted to give answer to Das Reich...as despite of following shiaism...he also admits the first 2 caliphs great virtues..and has a very deep and good knowledge of history...i think he is a zaidi-shia ...they are very moderate ....they accept the cvirtues and merits of 3 caliphs however think that ali(ra) is more superior to 3 caliphs..so its is thier opinion...OK fine....as Allah knows best who is no.1 and who is no. 4 etc ec.....thats not so big issue....they respect the shabas also.....they also think that when ali(ra) accepted the 3 caliphs..so its mean ali(ra) accepted with contenetment of heart(no taqiyya) ......however the 12 er(imamia) are just give vulgur abuses.to sahabas.....either openly or in heart by the use of sooper dooper formula of taqiyya...so its useless to debate with such 12 er...and all those who follow thier path .......
we are all lovers of all sahabas.....we respect them..they are the best creations after prophets...they brought the golden revolution in the human history...abu bakr(ra) and umar(ra)...remained throughout the two hands of prophet(pbuh) in his life..his assistants..in every matter...thats why Allah joined them in the grave also till qiyyammah and there is hadees that on qiyyamah..first i will be risen..then abu bakr and umar(ra)...so whatever you people say about them....they are with tier beloved in his life...after life...and atlast in jannah .....also.....
and all those people who think that after prophet(pbuh) death ..all sahabas became murtads except 3.....salman farsi..abu zar and miqdad(ra)...they are just shameful liars....blamming the prophet(pbuh) directly that his 23 years effort is so poor(naozobillah) that only 3 persons and ahle-bait(ra) accepted true islam !!!!!!! rest all were munafiqs and murtads....such a shameful and vulgur blame on prophet(pbuh) and on those ...who spent thier lives..thier houses...food...gardens...wifes...children...luxuries...everything for the sake of thier beloved(pbuh) and showed the world such a great time...never to be seen before...carved out such an empire stretching in 3 continents..never to occured before......and now if some person says...only 3 remained on islam..rest all became murtads.....its better for all those who say that to admit themselves into psyco-analyst clinics...and have a life-time therapy sessions .....and still i doubt...the problem will always prevails....(wo jis ko chatah hai hidayat daita hai jis ko hata gumrah karta hai ...)
so
allah hafiz
and good bye
and fiamanillah
and rub-rakha
etc etc..
no sir...me and my respectables reader and friends at that forumcan debate with you till last breath..but since its useless to "debate for debate" means "bahas barai bahais"...in which you pick a single word ....and then start DEBATING IN LOGICS..PHILOSOPHICAL...BAAL KI KHAL UTARNA...MOCKING...JOCKING...NO REASONABLE LOGICAL ANSWER...JUST REPEATING "TAPE KA FIQRA"...NAWASIB AND KHARJITES...ETC ETC....KHARJITES WERE original shias and kufis...if someone takes some narrations from some of them..ythats not means you start changing your fore-fathers... :D
and abu za (ra) opinion was that the next day food 'smaterial should not be kept today...as allah will give this ...so high degree of Tawakkal...but are all 5 fingers are equal.....how many of those can reach such place...hardly 1 out of thousands...thats why Allama ehsan have written 100 % truth..
