A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

France in particular and the West in general are adjusting to the new realities of radicalism. French want to hang on to their secular system and so do many other countries. So looking different is never an issue. The issue is exactly what you do to look different.

A pierced nose woman may not have any problem going through the airports. Suddenly you bring in a guy looking like Osama and guess what? Many people will be interested in questioning him.

p.s. There is no criticism of the lady. Go back and read all the posts. People are just suggesting that she should opt to live in a place that offers a lifestyle closer to her preferences.

btw Burqaposhx's motto is to encourage more burqas. Especially for those who want to slip out of mosques.

Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

^^ I never thought I'd agree with you...& let me add few things. The proponents of veil here who are crying about her human rights ...are very same people who would also defend Taliban chopping off peoples heads in public, stoning people to death & would defend suicide bombers...among other things.

Anyways, like it or not, in near future expect more anti Muslim legislations thought out the Europe b/c Europeans hve legitimate threat from radical Islam & their way of secular progressive life is indeed under threat of radicals......

Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

why would you want to wear a tent anyways. some people are just thick or stupid. sometimes both.

Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

Gupshup still a bunch of ****ing idiots.

burqaposhx did you just seriously say "we give up our cultural rights when we migrate to the west?" Did you really make such a bloody stupid statement?

Shamraz Khan didn't Hitler make a similar comment to preserve the German culture against the influence of the jews who in his opinion were radicals?

I am here, please show my statement of defending Taliban chopping off people's hands/heads, thank you very much. If you cannot find then please edit your post and stop false accusation.

What made you think what your wrote is true???

Simply speculations on your part and not a reality.

Speaking about personal choice and freedom and what evil people do to others are TWO different topics and you tried to mix them for whatever reason.

You said it violates her civil rights in first post. Are you back tracking?

Don't derail your own thread now!!!

Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

Shamraz Khan, I would make a similar demand as ehtasab. The idiocy of the statement he quotes is beyond me.

and there it is in bold, the one thing you cant assume everyone has. infact Burqaposh posted a quote from the husband wishing he could emigrate to a place with more Muslim friendly laws even though he was French himself.

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Like this full-face niqaab lady. Her husband (who I assume is originally from Morocco but settled in France) had seen his wife being such a strict muslimah, should himself have figured out that living in France (which is very very liberal country) is probably not the wisest choice.

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Why not? France is one of those countries that has a sizable north african population, and has enclaves where Muslims are very much at home, inspite of the secular broader society.

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If possible, move somewhere else. If not possible, then go through the ensuing pain.

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Those are the two options in any case, however that does not mean that the government is above rebuke, criticism and legal action for forcing this choice on people.

What you are saying amounts to prescribing a coping strategy. Thats fine and well, Im sure people in that situation will find a way to live their lives, but it is like venturing into a discussion about a robber the advice that people should keep a close eye on their belongings, and if they have been robbed by Joe Shmoe they should try to get what was robbed back from a second hand shop, maybe their belongings will wind up there or at any rate you usually get good stuff at that store. All good advice, but rather besides the point, no?

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Anyway, the example of rape in Saudi Arabia is again over the top. No country in the world condones rape.

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Saudi Arabia does in specific cases.

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A better example will be that Saudi Arabia does not allow women to drive cars. Many other countries of the world offer similar or better opportunities but are not such restrictive societies. Not being able to drive a car may be important issue for some women, but if lure of money or opportunity makes them go to Saudi Arabia anyway, thats their choice.
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It is your religious outlook whether you would feel pressuring a religious woman to take off her veil is closer to women contemplating a country where rape can in certain circumstances have legal cover, or a country where women cant drive. In either instance however, it is a discriminatory, sexist law that women need to live with in that country, and should be criticised, just as this is a discriminatory, Islamophobic ruling.

When you use ideas to hurt someone or take away that persons freedom of choice for benign items like article of clothings etc.......... that is called radicalism.

Not allowing sikhs wear turban, jews wearing star of David/yamaka, not allowing christians wearing cross and muslims men a cap or women wearing veil.......is a form of radicalism.

I think I must rest my case. Good luck and hope you look things in real perspective rather than jumping in a bandwagon without thinking.


"Pressuring a religious woman to take off her veil"? Even by GS standards thats stretching it too much. What I have said, multiple times, is that I don't think full-face niqaab is part of Islam - it may be part of Bedouin culture - but if some lady wants to take a full face veil, more power to them. Its their choice. Hope its clear.

What I do say is that, all things being equal, people should live in a place that is more closely aligned with their religious and cultural values. I hope its not too difficult a concept to understand? What I am talking about is common sense (granted its fairly uncommon), and not legislation.

And when you talk about criticizing discreiminatory, sexist laws, I am with you. Whether its the Turkish or French extreme where they take secularism to a new level by forcing women to take off hijaab, or the Saudi or Afghani extreme where they beat women who are not in veil - all these should be criticized. Granted here we are talking about France and French law. I don't agree with their court's ruling regarding this case. I don't like the direction of French (or Dutch) political landscape that is becoming dramatically anti-Islamic. To the extent we can't influence either of these, my personal suggestion is for people to consider practical alternatives. Not to appear callous towards Ms Silmi's husband, however pls note that buses are every where. Its not like bus drivers are only in demand in France.

And I completely agree with Ms Silmi's husband when he says that he doesn't feel welcome in France (any more). Even from a distance, and with my knowledge of this case limited to a 3-page discussion on Gupshup, I think he's got it absolutely spot on. Now, we can parse the argument of basic human rights, religious freedoms, freedom to dress, secularism, bad law, anti-muslim bias, free speech and all other spectacular theoretical concepts, for Ms Silmi and her family, its a real-life decision and not just an online yip and yap.

how is it too much? isnt that what the french government is doing, in her case in particular by telling the media what a horrible practice it is and her lifestyle is and how she is submissive and whatnot, by denying her citizenship and whatever rights go along with that? How is that not pressure?

YOU dont think it is part of Islam. I dont either. What makes you think anyone else would take your or mine word for it? Clearly it is praticed in fulfillment of opinions about religious duties, so it isnt JUST a cultural thing.

I understand you completely, but I rather think your common sense is besides the point, and irrelevant here. Please refer to my robber example in the preceding post.

Good, we agree.

I dont think he actually reads this particular forum, nor do I suppose that the thread starters intention was to elicit practical suggestions from esteemed members on this forum as to how to proceed hereon. I am confident that Ms Silmi’s husband will make choices that make the most sense to him, including trying to sue the government, possibly getting lots of money, and living the rest of his life having people drive buses for him. More power to him :k:

I don't think France and Denmark have any anti-islam directions at all and neither are they progressing towards that. From the perspective of almost non-islamic countries, a religion has a place and that's that. Islam doesn't respect those boundaries and has a say in many more aspects of life. Unfortunately such 'say' is usually restrictive and rigidly precriptive. The islamic religious establishment and the terrorists with their jihad have made thei contributions too, all thus compunding the fundamental issue of the 'not so bound' nature of islam.

End result is many countries are simply very concerned about islam mushrooming beyond control and so have started reacting.

Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

^ Well, your last sentence is what I am calling a “growing anti-Islam bias” in these countries. You can call it something else. I am ok with it.

ravage, I agree that Ms Silmi’s husband may not be reading this forum, but what we are doing here is discussing a news and giving our personal opinions on the matter. No one seriously expects this family to pack up and leave as a result of reading views of annonymous posters on Paklinks.com. What we do hope is that ppl who actually read these discourses learn a thing or two from sensible replies posted here. :wink:

Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

Roti kapra makan always trumps niqab. All this talk of religious piety and so called modesty through hiding inside a sack is b.s.
Ask this woman if shed want to take her kids back to somalia

Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

^No, it's not all b.s. Just because some of us don't dress that way, does not give us the right to judge those who do. Why they do it, is between them and their lord.

Her family's from Morocco. It's an immigrant's right to earn a decent living wherever possible, as long as he/she does not break any rules or violate any laws of the land. And is a lawful resident.

The issue revolves around the objection of French Immigration to her dresscode, if so is the case, then they really need to put it down in writing and pass a law which makes it a disqualification factor for veiled residents seeking citizenship, so they will expect this later. To outright deny it w/out any basis, and just stereotype is Racism.

Completely off topic but; french girls are gorgeous, they have awesome tans :$


Dude take it easy, there all kinds of people in the world with all kinds of opinions, so why would Gupshup be any different?

Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

lol. she should be able to wear what she wants, but go France! same thing should happen in Australia.

hi jab= signs of separatism

1st my apology if anyone was offended. That was not my intention.
2ndly if i was representing her in court I would make the case of her civil rights being violated.

Thats not the point. The point I was trying to make is radical Islam & its threat to Europe. If I was European I'd be looking down on the horizon when 25 to 30% of European population would be Muslim starting separatist movements all across Europe.

Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

^ There is no such thing as radical islam.
Its a term being used so many times that it gets accepted by people without thinking what they are saying.

Islam itself as an idea or religion has nothing to do with what so few idiots and evil doers want majority to believe.

Bottom line: People may be radical, islam is not.

Radicalism by people means going too far in to (even a non-radical and tolerant) idea that one start forcing it on others. Meaning too much passionate about an idea or theory.

There is no such indication in this case from woman and her husband side. Both want to live happily together with the choices of their own.

Yet there is plenty evidence that the radicalism is from french administration.