A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

[simplyme]

^ There is no such thing as radical islam. Its a term being used so many times that it gets accepted by people without thinking what they are saying.

Islam itself as an idea or religion has nothing to do with what so few idiots and evil doers want majority to believe.

Bottom line: People may be radical, islam is not.

Radicalism by people means going too far in to (even a non-radical and tolerant) idea that one start forcing it on others. Meaning too much passionate about an idea or theory.

There is no such indication in this case from woman and her husband side. Both want to live happily together with the choices of their own.

Yet there is plenty evidence that the radicalism is from french administration.

You have so eloquently argued that there is no radicalism in Islam.
It is OK for the vast majority of muslims to not assimilate with the immigrant countries and striving for their own way of life to be implemented in the countries they want to live. If that isnt a form of radicalism, I dont know what is.

Your comment about there is radicalism from the French administration is not in the right spirit. Cant your own argument be valid here. Or do you want to hide behind the veil of sarcasm again.

[deedawar]

@simplyme

You have so eloquently argued that there is no radicalism in Islam. .........................again.

Thank you.:)

For the rest of your post please refer to my post #45.

[picoico]

Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

The French are being Chauvanists...in the true sense of the word. Plain and simple.

Never known for their sensitivity. Ask our Algerian friends.

No, they full well know that a reverse-colonization is going on, and fear for it as on the one hand, they sure do need them brown folk for the cheap labour...and on the other...well, they just don't make good Frenchmen.

So...what to do with all those native born Burqa wearers? For all intents and purposes, the French government has called them non-citizens in spirit...

---

Has nothing to do with radicalism...this is all about preservation of culture. It's fascinating that we're seeing European nations struggle with the question of authenticity. Muslim nations have been struggling with this since at least about the 60's, with modern incarnations of the Hijab, failed experimentation with socialism with an Islamic tinge, and what not...

[picoico]

@Shamraz_Khan

The proponents of veil here who are crying about her human rights ...are very same people who would also defend Taliban chopping off peoples heads in public, stoning people to death & would defend suicide bombers...among other things.

No, what's hilarious are that the secular here who defend France's decision to keep her as a non-citizen (i.e. second class member of society - she has no chance in hell of becoming a citizen so that's precisely what she is) for not being able to assimilate to Western/French norms, would simultaneously decry any similar behavior from Muslim nations (in particular Pakistan), which they insist should be secular for the sake of the minorities.

I love the double standard...in Pakistan, Muslims ought to bend over backwards to appease non-Muslims by adopting a secular system, and ideally gravitating towards a secular society...on the other hand, in Western nations....yeah, it's all too funny. Har har.

I think you'd be surprised...I think many people really don't have sympathies for her, as she is trying to move to a non-Muslim state...she shouldn't expect a hero's welcome. BUT, this is something new...many before, like her, came...without problem. Can't really blame her.

[simplyme]

@deedawar

Thank you.:)

For the rest of your post please refer to my post #45.

That is what people who do not know what they are speaking often do. Hiding behind the veil of sarcasm and ignorance.

[deedawar]

Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

@simplyme

That is what people ...........ignorance.

Please refer to........

You know! :)

[burqaposhx]

@picoico

.....in Pakistan, Muslims ought to bend over backwards to appease non-Muslims ....

Aaahmm! Aahhmmm! Pics bro! Aren't we stretching it a bit?

Where are the poor Pakistani Muslims who are being bent over to appease Pakistani-Non-Muslims? Which side of the bend is it anyways?

Are the Pakistani or Arab Muslims getting bent over when they fire AK-47 into non-Muslims' places of worship? or they have to bend a little before they push the switch of a suicide bomb?

People have mercy!

This lady in France is just fine. She is not getting gunned down or being suicide bombed. Just a little purdah please (if not a full scope burqa :) )

[picoico]

Where are the poor Pakistani Muslims who are being bent over to appease Pakistani-Non-Muslims? Which side of the bend is it anyways?

Read the post. I'm referring to secularists, who simply don't want to take the assimilation message to Pakistan's minorities (as if they care about them...more importantly, they don't take the message to heart themselves). THEY would have Pakistanis do this. Of course, Pakistani's are not currently doing this.

[quote]

Are the Pakistani or Arab Muslims getting bent over when they fire AK-47 into non-Muslims' places of worship? or they have to bend a little before they push the switch of a suicide bomb?

[/quote]
Valid concerns, but irrelevant. Protection of minorities is a different issue. Do you feel Pakistanis who do not practice Islam, or are not Muslim, should be bound by and assimilated into Islamic culture?

[quote]
This lady in France is just fine. She is not getting gunned down or being suicide bombed. Just a little purdah please (if not a full scope burqa :) )
[/quote]
Right, I never said France was a lawless nation. She's more like a non-local in Dubai. A second class member of society.

So please...spare me the rhetoric of suicide bombings and what not...

[simplyme]

Read the post. I'm referring to secularists, who simply don't want to take the assimilation message to Pakistan's minorities (as if they care about them...more importantly, they don't take the message to heart themselves). THEY would have Pakistanis do this. Of course, Pakistani's are not currently doing this.

Valid concerns, but irrelevant. Protection of minorities is a different issue. Do you feel Pakistanis who do not practice Islam, or are not Muslim, should be bound by and assimilated into Islamic culture?

This is exactly the why Pakistan has hudood laws. So that people who do not practise Islam or are not Muslim are not bound by and assimilated into Islamic culture. Before you answer please think. Dont try yourself into knots. Initially you claimed that all muslims in Pakistan were bending over backwards for the sake of minorities. Now you curtail them to be only secularists. Then whatever...

[picoico]

This is exactly the why Pakistan has hudood laws. So that people who do not practise Islam or are not Muslim are not bound by and assimilated into Islamic culture. Before you answer please think.

READ the post. I was claiming that secularists wanted a particular set up, and made no claim as to what the current set up is...nor did I make a commentary on the current state of affairs. I simply pointed out the duplicity of secularists when it comes to Western nations, and Pakistan.

Start a new thread if you want to discuss Islamic law wrt. Minorities and their assimlation.

[burqaposhx]

.....I'm referring to secularists, who simply don't want to take the assimilation message to Pakistan's minorities (as if they care about them...more importantly, they don't take the message to heart themselves). .......

I don't think you have lived in Pakistan and experienced any interaction with Pakistani minorities.

Pakistani Christians are fully assimilated. Their dress, language, and even names are just like any other mainstream Pakistani. Christian run schools, hospitals etc. follow strict rules about not preaching to Muslim kids. And they have been doing so long before the Talib madness gripped the country.

Pakistani Hindus are in such a small number and yet you can't look at a Pakistani-Hindu and quickly tell him apart from his Muslim neighbor as per his dress or language etc.

The same is true for other minorities as well. None of them behaves like the Arabs (discussed in this thread). How many Muslim Arabs living in the West name their kids James, Bob, or Jack. You can find most of the middle class Pakistani Christians with names like Anwar, Akram etc. And in some cases they have Mohammad and Allah as part of their names.

So what else you want from them as far assimilation in Pakistan is concerned?

[truth_finder]

Pakistani Hindus are in such a small number

One accademic question If from 1947 onwards the Hindus constitute a small percentage of Pakistani Population?

[ehtasab]

@simplyme

You have so eloquently argued that there is no radicalism in Islam.
It is OK for the vast majority of muslims to not assimilate with the immigrant countries and striving for their own way of life to be implemented in the countries they want to live. If that isnt a form of radicalism, I dont know what is.

Britishers came to India and thrusted their way of life, that probably ain’t radicalism Demanding one to not follow his religion is not extremism too.

[ehtasab]

I don't think you have lived in Pakistan and experienced any interaction with Pakistani minorities.

**Pakistani Christians are fully assimilated. **Their dress, language, and even names are just like any other mainstream Pakistani. Christian run schools, hospitals etc. follow strict rules about not preaching to Muslim kids. And they have been doing so long before the Talib madness gripped the country.

Pakistani Hindus are in such a small number and yet you can't look at a Pakistani-Hindu and quickly tell him apart from his Muslim neighbor as per his dress or language etc.

Does "Christianity" ask to wear anything special? Does Hinduism ask its followers to wear anything special? Do they have any such religious laws?

[teggy]

I don't think you have lived in Pakistan and experienced any interaction with Pakistani minorities.

Pakistani Christians are fully assimilated. Their dress, language, and even names are just like any other mainstream Pakistani. Christian run schools, hospitals etc. follow strict rules about not preaching to Muslim kids. And they have been doing so long before the Talib madness gripped the country.

Pakistani Hindus are in such a small number and yet you can't look at a Pakistani-Hindu and quickly tell him apart from his Muslim neighbor as per his dress or language etc.

The same is true for other minorities as well. None of them behaves like the Arabs (discussed in this thread). How many Muslim Arabs living in the West name their kids James, Bob, or Jack. You can find most of the middle class Pakistani Christians with names like Anwar, Akram etc. And in some cases they have Mohammad and Allah as part of their names.

So what else you want from them as far assimilation in Pakistan is concerned?

Aren't you comparing Oranges to Grapes with that association?

While you are right that even minorities assimilate quite well in Pakistan, but it is by choice. They choose to dress in the national dress and have the names they want to have because they want to mix in as much as possible.

Lately the urban trend is such that Tight jeans/short t's and such are a common sight (yes i'm talking about Pakistani girls). While the society overall is still conservative, but it does shed light on the fact that one can be as he/she wishes within their own confines.

Those who are fond of extreme western dress code are not prohibited from citizenship in Pakistan.

Then why would someone, a french immigrant be prohibited from citizenship due to his/her dress code? Unless, for the millionth time, there is a law that clearly states such, then there are no surprises later.

The few christians in Pakistan i have come across wear the Pakistani label proudly while maintaining christian names such as Venus, Caesar/Qaisar, etc. They choose to dress Pakistani because they, themselves want to blend it. If they wore Pant/Shirt, etc...i'm sure no one would stone them because western dresses are a norm everywhere.

The point is real simple, if anyone is to be refused citizenship on the basis of dresscode, and such ruling is not a LAW in place when he/she applies....it's discrimination. And disrimination of such level really makes the slogan of 'liberal, freedom yielding' look rather tainted with selectiveness.

[picoico]

I don't think you have lived in Pakistan and experienced any interaction with Pakistani minorities.

Still have family in our ancestral home. Their driver is a Christian, and there's plenty of interaction. I only have ever visited, but so what? I don't see how this is related ot anything.

I did not comment about what Christians do, it is about what secularists demand. The question is, do they hold the same standards for assimilation for minorities the world over? My experiences tell me no.

[VetriVelan]

Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

when you guys talk about how well minorities are 'integrated' into Pakistan I have a few questions:

are any of them immigrants? aren't all of them born and brought up there so have no choice anyway?

do any of them have the ability to disagree with Pakistani requirements of its citizens?

[slick_star]

um....new immigrants can never intergrate 100% into main stream society. my mums been in australia 20+ years and she still cant speak english. lol. yes it does tick me off when i have to do the simplest things for my mum, but my dad is pretty much equiped to look after himself.

western govt should be concerned more about 2nd generation immigrats, those who are born into main stream society changing their ways and going radical and not adopting main stream laws and culture.

[burqaposhx]

@picoico

........it is about what secularists demand. The question is, do they hold the same standards for assimilation for minorities the world over? My experiences tell me no.

So what are your dreaded enemies aka "secularists" demand from you?

If you have visited Pakistan only once, what makes you so sure about the situation there? Geo news tells you all that? Wow!

@picoico

.....I only have ever visited, but so what? I don't see how this is related ot anything. ...

That's the problem with UK settled Pakistani Jihadis. They build up their own dreamy visions about Pakistan and then launch these movements that hurt Pakistan. They listen to the half-brained Maulvis with half-baked Islamist propaganda then go off suggesting what Pakistan should do.

FYI. Pakistani Islam was Soofiana tolerant version that has been made intolerant thanks to the "imported" ideas from Arabs, Iranians, and Arab-Iranian-Inspired Pakistani expats.

This uneducated behavior of Pakistani expats is in marked contrast to the Indian and Chinese expats.

Both Indians and Chinese do not care if their home governments are the ideal place for everyone. These guys work hard, earn respect of the West and take to their home countries Western businesses. Wish Pakistani expats learn something from Indian and Chinese fellows (instead of becoming mental servants of Jihadis).

[VetriVelan]

Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

Well the thing is, Indians and Chinese don't let business and economics to be determined by religious considerations as much as Pakistanis seem to do - I know a number a Pakistani business/trades people who don't talk too much about religion but it is always there - they wear it so much on the outside that it makes everyone else very uncomfortable and serves as a natural barrier.