A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Hope you are being sarcastic. If not, I just want to ask you one question. What are you doing in Canada. Why arent you in Saudi Arabia.

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Hiding behind the veil of sarcasm I suppose...

43

Are you a lawyer?

Can you challenge French court's decision on burqa?

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^ some day may be :chai:

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I already know you cannot understand logic.

Why keep giving me proof?:)

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Here are my few thoughts on this issue:

  1. I don't understand the logic of full face-covering naqaab type veil. I don't think its part of Islam. I think its part of Bedouin culture where men are so horny that if they as much as see a beautiful face, they'd go crazy and will want to marry that lady. Islam requires modest clothing and covering satr. Full face naqaab may help women in that culture, but I don't think its required or needed in modern day city-living.

  2. Having said that, its a person's right to wear full face naqaab, if that makes them happy, secure or more close to Allah. Alhamdollilah for them and their beliefs.

  3. Personally speaking I don't get it when people with such strict interpretation of Islam decide to live in such liberal places like Europe and US. I get the whole point about economic opportunities etc, but why put yourself through so much trouble? If you are unhappy in your own homeland (Morocco, in this case) and also insist on practicing this strict interpretation of Islam, then why not move to another muslim country . There are many places in the world (middle east, far east etc) where you have reasonable economic opportunities and where you will fit right in with your strict religious views. Why live in France, UK and US and be miserable fighting their racial prejudices and immigration policies (unreasonable as they may be). This is entirely a personal choice, of course, but people should use their common sense.

As an example, I'd love to visit Saudi Arabia regularly for hajj, umra and other religious travel. However, based on my personal religoius and cultural views, if I have to live in Saudi Arabia permanently, I am sure I will be absolutely miserable (even places like Riyadh and Jeddah). Therefore, I chose not to live there. This is common sense. You should live where you are happy and where you have opportunities. Why go to a place where you will stick out like a sore thumb, where you detest their life-style and where pretty much every thing goes against your religious and cultural views.

Just some food for thought.

Good luck to Ms Silmi and her family as they go through their own decision-making process.

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Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

Its sad to see muslims making an issue out of something which shouldn't be of concern. We're quick to point fingers at how she dresses (whether its part of islam or not, should not matter!) and fail to recognize the bigger game at play here.

The world is turning anti-islam, and half the people on this board are happily condeming the lady for covering herself up (again, whether its part of islam or not, why does it matter?) she put on a piece of cloth, thats her choice, dont make it an islamic issue, just beacuse the western government fail to see the reasoning behind it. If a nudist was to apply for citizenship, they would jump to be the first, im sure if a nudist female applied, the whole embassy would be in the lobby just to catch a glimpse of her. Its disgusting what the west has become, we need to start rectifying it, instead of criticizing the victims of their foreign policies.

"You've failed to receive the citizenship due to your radical beliefs" how can anyone let a statement like that pass, that should be the focus, not her outfit. Let me put it plain and simple, next time someone talks about human rights, and equality and humanitarian blah blah crap and how islam lacks all of it, try to focus on the policies and practices of the governments who condemn muslims in the first place.

Maybe we can shift ourselves to rectifying islam and in effect possibly bringing them closer to it.

Islam isnt' spread by force, 'western democracy' is.

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Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

Crescent, not sure if your post is addressed to someone or is general, let me just focus on a couple of your points.

- Its sad to see muslims making an issue out of something which shouldn't be of concern

Its French media - not muslims - who have used this case to highlight a major issue. You agree with that issue, which is the huge anti-muslim bias that is increasing in the western world. You are right, its not fair, but then few things in life are fair.

- im sure if a nudist female applied, the whole embassy would be in the lobby just to catch a glimpse of her

You don't have to go to such extremes to make a point. If Ms Silmi was not a face-covering niqaab-posh lady, and instead would just maintain regular hijaab (where face is exposed) or wears regular modest clothes without hijaab, presumably none of these issues would arise. Covering the face takes hijaab (which is what Islam prescribes) to another level. While it may be perfectly alright in some cultures, it is not alright in some other cultures. Just as wearing short-skirts and sleeveless dresses is not acceptable in Saudi Arabian culture.

Point is simple, if you don't like the local culture, you should settle somewhere else. Why make your life miserable and at the same time allow others to poke fun at you and your values? Unless, of course, you are there to make dawa'h in which case, more power to you. Not sure if this is the case of Ms Silmi here.

Having said that, some of it may become a moot point in the future. A full-face niqaab may not be an issue anymore. This anti-muslim bias is increasing, and as muslims while we may be engaged in pseudo PR campaigns (refer to NY Subway flap going on right now), we are not really addressing the actual issue here - rise of violent muslims groups in many of the oppressed dictatorial muslim countries of the middle east. It may just take one bad day (really bad day) for even modern muslims (or mod-muslims, as some of you call them) to begin packing their bags from the west, as well.

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Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

one goes where he can get to. you ask why she and her family dont go to saudi arabia, well how do you get to saudi arabia? in all likelihood it is probably easier for someone in Morocco to go to France than Saudi Arabia, given the proximity, diaspora of north african people there, imperial guilt and easier immigration laws, none of which holds for Saudi Arabia. in short, asking why not go to SA is more or less a "let them eat cake" line of attack.

speaking of Saudi Arabia, one could mention the fact that that country has occasions of rape/exploitation of Filipina maids, which has on occasion been given legal cover under a daft interpretation of Islamic laws. it could then be asked, why do these maids go there, when their laws are so bad? It is all very well that you can choose not to live there, Faisal bhai but not everyone has the luxury of choice.

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Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

^ I agree that not every thing is in our control. Some times where people grow up and live is not a place of their chosing. My point is that given a choice, people who intend to practice a very strict version of their faith should live in a place that facilitates that, rather than a place where they are victimized due to their religious beliefs and practices.

Like this full-face niqaab lady. Her husband (who I assume is originally from Morocco but settled in France) had seen his wife being such a strict muslimah, should himself have figured out that living in France (which is very very liberal country) is probably not the wisest choice. If possible, move somewhere else. If not possible, then go through the ensuing pain. I am not advocating that people should just up and leave or a govt should force people to leave because they do not conform to their society values, I am talking about common sense personal decision-making and to minimize problems in your life.

Anyway, the example of rape in Saudi Arabia is again over the top. No country in the world condones rape. A better example will be that Saudi Arabia does not allow women to drive cars. Many other countries of the world offer similar or better opportunities but are not such restrictive societies. Not being able to drive a car may be important issue for some women, but if lure of money or opportunity makes them go to Saudi Arabia anyway, thats their choice.

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Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

All of you make some valid points. However, it is discriminatory, and if France believes that veil is an outright proof of "radicalism" then i suggest French Parliament pass a law or amend the currently existing immigration and naturalization laws that state specifically that covered in veil is a disqualification factor for those seeking citizenship.

I hope she beats the drum about it till ears go deaf. She was treated unfairly, legally.

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They can always come and settle in Lal Masjad. There are many Burqposh enjoying all the freedoms Pakistan could offer (except the one who got caught sneaking out in a burqa).

Support the immigration of this family to Pakistan. Any votes?

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Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

Nay!

They didn't come to France illegally; they shouldn't be ejected illegally. Simple.

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I understand and agree, but its just so wrong to say "we think you're a radical for covering urself head to toe" coming from the country officials.

Isn't islam the fastest growing religion in france? I heard few years down the road, it will become the largest group in france?

Is this true?

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Wah! Great point.

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Teggy bro!

Aren’t we making it more dramatic than it really is? NYT report says

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/19/world/europe/19france.html

Note where it says that she will not lose her right to stay so what’s the basis of “ejected illegaly”?

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Re: A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship

You asked for a vote on whether that family should migrate to Pakistan, i said Nay! and then told you why i said Nay.

Obviously she’s not being kicked out of the country, eventhough she’s a “radical” who refuses to take off her veil.

:chai:

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Here is more on this topic

[QUOTE]
Ms. Silmi’s husband, a former bus driver who says he is finding it hard to get work because of his beard, dreams of moving his family to Morocco or Saudi Arabia. “We don’t feel welcome here,” he said. “I am French, but I can’t really say that I am proud of it right now.”

[/QUOTE]

Same NYT report said this as well.

Well the guy is following the same thought about moving to Saudi or Morocco. No harm done!

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All is not lost. Courts in the West are still giving some room to the Muslims.

Dutch Court Rules in favor of the illiterate Moroccan Immigrant

[QUOTE]
AMSTERDAM (AP) — A Dutch court punched a hole in toughened immigration restrictions on Friday, ruling that an illiterate Moroccan woman cannot be required to pass a Dutch language test in order to join her husband in the Netherlands.

The order dismayed politicians who have sought to curb immigration from non-Western countries, and they vowed to fix the law to cover the loophole exposed by the Amsterdam District Court.
[/QUOTE]

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He is not welcomed because of what?

1- He did not commit a crime.

2- His wife did not commit a crime.

3- He has not hurt anyone..nor his wife did.

4- They just look different or want to look different than others.

People with pierced nose/ear/lips/tongue/eyebrow/whatever can get citizenship in france ..right? (Prove if I am wrong)

They want to look different too...against so many other people.

(Notice: A burqaposh criticizing a woman with veil...perhaps beacause she is wishing the citizenship of France)