Re: a question...
As Stalin said, When 1 man dies, its a tragedy, when a million men die its a statistic.
Bengalis, should not hold average Pakistani civilian responsible of what Pak fauj or politicians did.
They have already apologized, and its time to move one.
Re: a question...
Yeah something the Americans have put to good use. Collateral damage is of course based on that principle.
Re: a question…
Peace CM
I hate to hamper this discussion with minutia, but when maths is involved it gets me going. Your data is missing one crucial element. You forgot to divide the number of troops that were in the area by your average figure.
According to this link, there were something between 50,000 proper troops to 150,000 which included all other bolstered armed personnel in Bangladesh that belonged to West Pakistan.
Even if we take the lower figure of 50,000 then … we must admit lets say this amount was 50% operational on average, this accounts for shift change, sleeping, eating, toilet, etc. So that gives us 25,000 persons were ‘effective’ 100% of the time.
If we take your figure of 342.5 people per hour and divide by 25,000 we get 0.0137 kills per hour per person = 0.3288 kills per day per person = 2.3 kills per week per person. This figure is so much more possible now.
Even if we take the 25,000 and half again, to give us 12,500 ‘effective’ 100% of the time, we get 4.6 kills per week per person. These are not really impossible to practically achieve.
I also agree with TLK that taking averages is hard to contextualise with reality, but your point is also taken on board that mostly gunfire kills does allow average to be more ‘real’ than mass destruction based kills.
… The most important point however is it does not matter about 30,000 or 300,000 or 3 Million. If the lives were taken with injustice then it is still to be condemned even if it was only 1 life.
Re: a question...
Nationalism, brings out the beast in everyone! Shame we have such people today who deny evil doings of their grandfathers. The Pakistani fauj are no angels, if they can kidnap, rape and kill their OWN people TODAY, who were Bengalis then?
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Nothing but pure propaganda. BTW, Look what Bangladeshi people did to their "founder".
Re: a question…
To me, the most authentic source of information on the 1971 war is Hamood ur Rehman Commission report which is respected and ‘advertised’ even in Bangali nationalistic websites. It analyses all the claims and was treated as ‘classified’ in Pakistan.
Yes, atrocities were committed by Pakistani army but the extent is highly exaggerated. Direct quote from the report:
"38. From what we have said in the preceding Paragraphs it is clear that
there is substance in the allegations that during and after the military
action excesses were indeed committed on the people of East Pakistan,
but the versions and estimates put forward by the Dacca authorities are
highly coloured and exaggerated. Some of the incidents alleged by those
authorities did not take place at all, and on others fanciful
interpretations have been deliberately placed for the purpose of
maligning the Pakistan army and gaining world sympathy. We have also
found that the strong provocation was offered to the army owing to the
misdeeds of the Awami League. It has also been stated that use of
force was undoubtedly inherent in the military action required to restore
the authority of the Federal Government. Nevertheless, in spite of all
these factors we are of the view that the officers charged with the task
of restoring law and order were under an obligation to act with restraint
and to employ only the minimum force necessary for the purpose. No
amount of provocation by the militants of the Awami League or other
miscreants could justify retaliation by a disciplined army against its own
people. The Pakistan Army was called upon to operate in Pakistan
territory, and could not, therefore, be permitted to behave as if it was
dealing with external aggression or operating on enemy soil.
Irrespective, therefore, of the magnitude of the atrocities, we are of the
considered opinion that it’s necessary for the Government of Pakistan to
take effective action to punish those who were responsible for the
commission of these alleged excesses and atrocities.
Re: a question...
Exactly what I have stated in the previous post. Yes atrocities were committed. But 3 million? Pfft. Hell no.
Re: a question...
Lets make it 30 only .. not 3 million ...does that decrease the severity of the crime in anyways? ..
Oh judge I killed and raped only 30 girls, not 3 Million, please pardon me ..
Re: a question...
Lets make it 30 only .. not 3 million ...does that decrease the severity of the crime in anyways? ..
Oh judge I killed and raped only 30 girls, not 3 Million, please pardon me ..
Judge:: U killed first and rape after??? U are not convicted for the reason of insanity. You go to mental psychiatry institute. hathoora
Re: a question...
Lets make it 30 only .. not 3 million ...does that decrease the severity of the crime in anyways? ..
Oh judge I killed and raped only 30 girls, not 3 Million, please pardon me ..
Are you serious? Would the Holocaust be the Holocaust if only 10,000 were killed instead?
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Yes I am serious. Name of the disaster or number of families do not matter for that one family whose all ladies were raped and killed. For them, it did not matter if 3 million others met the same fate or not.
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Lets differentiate between the two matters. The matter of the human cost per individual and the cost in political terms. Which would you prefer discussing first?
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to me they are the same.
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Yeah for the rest of the world they are not the same. If they were the same. Muslims being killed daily in Afghanistan would get the same hue and cry when ISAF does it and when the Taliban does it.
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CM, I am not saying that what is happening in Afghanistan or Somalia or Iraq is not a crime, but just because crime is also happening elsewhere in the world does not diminish the scar of what happened in East Pakistan.
It almost sounds to me that a Muslim Afghan's life is superior to you than a Muslim Bangladeshi's life.
Re: a question...
Lets make it 30 only .. not 3 million ...does that decrease the severity of the crime in anyways? ..
Oh judge I killed and raped only 30 girls, not 3 Million, please pardon me ..
They WERE pardoned and that is the reason why we can still have actions from our military for which they are never held answerable. We have reached a stage where a colonel refuses to appear before the Supreme Court and then we never hear about the summons again.
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I don't care about Somalia, Pakistan or Bangladesh in this discussion. We are discussing the nature of death in an abstract manner. You hold the view that one life is equal to a million deaths. While true for individual grief, it is not true for political consideration. 20 people dead is a travesty. 2000 is a crime. 100,000 is a damn ****ing disgrace. Numbers at the end of the day matter.
As per my first question I asked you:
[quote]
Would the Holocaust be the Holocaust if only 10,000 were killed instead?
[/quote]
Answer that please.
Re: a question...
We are discussing the nature of death in an abstract manner
no we are sepcifically discussing Crimes in East Pakistan. You derailed it into questioning the number of people killed there.
and to amswer your question, yes numbers do make a difference, a crime against a human and a crime against humanity are 2 different things, but the value of human life remains the same in both cases.
Re: a question...
i haven't gone through whole of the thread......i lived in bangladesh for few years...and i think i can say knowing them..
First thing.....yes...west pakistani establishment/govt did to injustices the bangali people.....it did happen....can't deny that
Second thing.........Genocide?? yes...it was...however the scale of it is not clear.....but it did happen.......but so did also the killing of non-bangalis...which is not usually mentioned..
thired......reason for separation??
thing is....having lived there......i can tell you that it was just not a good idea for us to be 'together' under one govt with bangalis.........the language,culture,religous values....each n everything is different........so it was not going to work out no matter what......it was only a matter of time..
Re: a question...
I don't care about Somalia, Pakistan or Bangladesh in this discussion. We are discussing the nature of death in an abstract manner. You hold the view that one life is equal to a million deaths. While true for individual grief, it is not true for political consideration. 20 people dead is a travesty. 2000 is a crime. 100,000 is a damn ****ing disgrace. Numbers at the end of the day matter.
As per my first question I asked you:
Answer that please.
Peace CM
I hope you are Muslim because this reply will hopefully bring your concern home. The only criteria for right and wrong should be viewed by what we are revealed about right and wrong through our holy scripture. Whether the world views numbers of deaths as more or less of a travesty is another debate and in fact an easily defeated one with sound reasoning.
I, like most Muslims will default to the superior motive of the value of a single life as though it is worth the whole of humanity only then can true justice come about in the world.
Now for justification ...
Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land!.
Surah 5 Verse 32