There is a very information website on the death of jesus and his grave. You can find it on: Tomb of Jesus
Certainly....Destino ur most welcome to add ur * two pence *...I am glade that people r actually following this...point well taken...but if u observe the example you have given me about the Shia and Sunni dis-agreement is based on a Hadith, which, according to u is accepted by both the sides...if not, then at least the ultimate source is accredited by both sides (Prophet SAW)...but in the case of Sura Zil-Zal we r still trying to establish the credability of Mirza Sahib...I hope u c where I am coming from.....
Thank you for giving me a direct answer about the where abouts of the grave of Jesus....so its in Kashmir....I found it true...
- "I have been informed about the grave of Eisa (in Kashmir)." (Roohani Khazain vol 18 p.358, 361)
"The grave of Jesus is in Kashmir." (Roohani Khazain vol 18 p. 320, Nuzool-e-Maseeh, printed in 1909, after the death of Mirza)
*
But I also found something else.....
The Grave is in KHALEELI......
"This is true that Maseeh went to his native place, and died there, but this is not true that the same body which was buried, became alive again..... verse 3 chapter I of Acts is a testimony about the natural death of Jesus that took place in **Khaleeli* after his death, Maseeh was visible to his students as KASHF (vision) for 40 days." (Izala-e-Auham, Roohani Khazain vol.3 p.353-354) *
The Grave is in SYRIA....
- "This has to be admitted that Hazrat Eisa is also dead, and interestingly enough ** grave of Hazrat Eisa is also in Syria **for further clarity, in the footnote, I include the testimony of My brother, My lover in Allah, Molvi Mohammad Al-Saeedi Trablisi. He is a resident of Tripoli, in the Country of Syria and in his area is the Grave of Hazrat Essa AS (Jesus). If you say that Grave is a fake, then you must provide the proof of this fake, and prove that when this fraud took place. And in this event we will not be sure about the graves of any prophet and trust will be lost, and we will have to say that all those burial places are fake." (Atmam E Hujat, Page: 18-19, Roohani Khazain vol.8 p.296-297, dated 1894) *
In the foot note he also adds the letter to Molvi Muhammad Sahib..which I am not adding in this post but if u wish to read its on the same page and on "Atmam-ul-Hujjat, Roohani Khazain vol.8 p.299".....
"Show us the right path"
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Perplexing: *
Thank you for giving me a direct answer about the where abouts of the grave of Jesus....so its in Kashmir....I found it true...
- "I have been informed about the grave of Eisa (in Kashmir)." (Roohani Khazain vol 18 p.358, 361)
"The grave of Jesus is in Kashmir." (Roohani Khazain vol 18 p. 320, Nuzool-e-Maseeh, printed in 1909, after the death of Mirza)
*
[/QUOTE]
yup you got that alright.
[QUOTE]
But I also found something else.....
The Grave is in KHALEELI......
"This is true that Maseeh went to his native place, and died there, but this is not true that the same body which was buried, became alive again..... verse 3 chapter I of Acts is a testimony about the natural death of Jesus that took place in **Khaleeli* after his death, Maseeh was visible to his students as KASHF (vision) for 40 days." (Izala-e-Auham, Roohani Khazain vol.3 p.353-354) *
[/QUOTE]
This was the argument based on the biblical stories.. according to christian doctorine..If you read the context you will understand that the arguments presented were taken from bible, lucas's version of event.. and even from then it can be proven the jesus died..
[QUOTE]
The Grave is in SYRIA....
- "This has to be admitted that Hazrat Eisa is also dead, and interestingly enough ** grave of Hazrat Eisa is also in Syria **for further clarity, in the footnote, I include the testimony of My brother, My lover in Allah, Molvi Mohammad Al-Saeedi Trablisi. He is a resident of Tripoli, in the Country of Syria and in his area is the Grave of Hazrat Essa AS (Jesus). If you say that Grave is a fake, then you must provide the proof of this fake, and prove that when this fraud took place. And in this event we will not be sure about the graves of any prophet and trust will be lost, and we will have to say that all those burial places are fake." (Atmam E Hujat, Page: 18-19, Roohani Khazain vol.8 p.296-297, dated 1894) *
In the foot note he also adds the letter to Molvi Muhammad Sahib..which I am not adding in this post but if u wish to read its on the same page and on "Atmam-ul-Hujjat, Roohani Khazain vol.8 p.299".....
[/QUOTE]
Again, it is just an account of the historical legends/facts on whereabouts of the grave of Jesus.. If you want to take all three different accounts as the "claims", then think again.. and try to read the context in which those statements were made..
Indeed the statement of the grave in Kashmir is a "claim"...
Hey Destino, is that an answer? I thought you were a logical person and would answer with reason and logic! Fatah sahab ran away so atleast you should face it well. You would be brave if you accept and truly see what is wrong with mirza sahab's writings. Mirza sahab went in his own grave and we all will go in ours!
Mr. Islamabad.
For your knowledge, I am still here.
Previously I asked to present one allegation at a time so avoid confusion. One of them was about the meaning of Surah-e-Zilzal that was answered.
And in the end Mr. perplexing wrote that I think we should move forward. and I am still waiting for either Mr. perplexing or you to continue the threat
Fatah sahab tell me one thing. You only joined in May 2003
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I am sure you were only called here to answer our questions, since an ordinary Ahmedi knows nothing much about Ahmediat. What I am saying is that its true Ahmedis have a lot of control on this website but please make sure you make the dates right!
We have one thing in common, and its authencity is unquestionable! It is the Holy Quran. According to the Quran:
(Yusuf Ali Translation)
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
(Surat an-Nisa': 157-158)
(Pickthal Translation)
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
(Surat an-Nisa': 157-158)
The whole ummah believes on this! Why is it that you believe otherwise?
This is how Ahmedis have translated it also but then explanations which are not supported either by Quran or Hadith but by Gospels??!!!!
[thumb=B]image2403.JPG[/thumb]
Why don't you realize that it is not only changing the meaning of the Holy Quran but also rejecting authentic ahadith of the Prophet Muhammad(SAW).
Mr. Islamabad
Instead of making assumptions that I was called here to answer allegations against Ahmadies please stick to the topic. I joined this discussion forum voluntarily and on my own desire. Nobody forced me to do so. You are accusing that ordinary Ahmadi doesn't much about Ahmadiat. What is the proof of that!.
Anyhow back to the discussion:
In Surah-e-Nisah:
[QUOTE]
(Yusuf Ali Translation)
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
(Surat an-Nisa': 157-158)
[/QUOTE]
You are implying that as Jews couldn't kill Jesus and was also unable to crucify him, the he must have ascended to heavens bodily. You are implyng that there couldn't be any thing else that could have happened to Jesus.
Lets take an example from this world. What if you try to kill a guy and then somehow you are unsuccessful in your attempt. What do you think would be the result. Either the guy is not killed but just injured and you left the scene thinking that he is dead or would he also ascend into the heavens bodily.
In the above verse, Allah is saying that he made Jews to believe that they infact have crucified Jesus but that was not the case as it was made to appear to them that they have killed them.
Have you ever thought on that lines!
Please consider the following verse of Surah AL-e-Imran:
Non-Ahmadi Source:
003.144
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.
PICKTHAL: Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.
SHAKIR: And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels!s, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.
This verse clearly show that the Holy Prophet is no more than a messenger and all messengers before have died. No specific mention of Jesus. I wonder Why!
It is not us Ahmadis who are taking any ideas from Bible, but its the muslim clergy. Christians believe in resurrection and then bodily ascention of Jesus to heaven.
Common concept among muslims is not much different.. But instead of resurrection (after his death on cross), they believe in substitution (an equally absurd idea, not supported by Quran or Hadith), and then bodily ascention.
So in both biblical and orthodox (which does not mean right) muslim versions, there was a bodily ascention.
Whereas Ahmadis believe, and this can be proven from Quran and historical facts that Jesus survived the cross, and escaped from palestine, and died a natural death. No myths no fairytales.
[quote]
And in the end Mr. perplexing wrote that I think we should move forward. and I am still waiting for either Mr. perplexing or you to continue the threat
[/quote]
Brother Fatheh Ahmad...I would be obligded if u do not consider this conversing of ours to be an exchange of threats...
Secondly I had put the different whereabouts of Jesus's grave in the previous posts and I am assuming that your answer is the same as Destinos...
[quote]
This has to be admitted that Hazrat Eisa is also dead, and interestingly enough grave of Hazrat Eisa is also in Syria for further clarity, in the footnote, I include the testimony of My brother, My lover in Allah, Molvi Mohammad Al-Saeedi Trablisi. He is a resident of Tripoli, in the Country of Syria and in his area is the Grave of Hazrat Essa AS (Jesus). If you say that Grave is a fake, then you must provide the proof of this fake, and prove that when this fraud took place. And in this event we will not be sure about the graves of any prophet and trust will be lost, and we will have to say that all those burial places are fake." (Atmam E Hujat, Page: 18-19, Roohani Khazain vol.8 p.296-297, dated 1894)
[/quote]
Mirza Sahib wheather relating the Legacies or Historical facts is in fact sounding very confident in saying that the Grave is in Syria...he even goes on alluding "Prove me wrong (by proving the grave is fake)..." and gives an account of his friend's living there...also in his "CLIAM" he includes the letter of Molvi Sahib....I am just wondering as to why does the Kashmir "CLAIM" has precedence over the Syria one???
Mr. Perplexing.
Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad never said that the grave of jesus is in Syria. He wrote that its in ‘Bilad-e-Shaam’. And Al-Quds (now Israel, Palestine) was part of Bilad-e-Shaam.
If you go there, you can still find the tomb of jesus there but body of jesus couldn’t be found there. I believe that there is big chappel on top of this tomb.
Now Ahmadis believe that after Jews failed to kill Jesus through crucifixion he was brought down from the cross and taken to the place which is now called Tomb of Jesus. Christians believe that after three days he ascended into the heavens. Ahmadis believe that He left that area for good and went towards India, where in the end he was buried.
You can go the following website to see the picture of empty tomb of jesus:
Perhaps you have it in you to believe.
Thats ok.
But I want to teach you to listen to your heart, always, everywhere you look.
No doubt. Its hard to listen. Hard to hear and understand.
Confusing sometimes.
Absolutely.
As confusinng as life is my friend, Love is granted by God.
Mr. Fateh Ahmed Sahab,
What does this Ayat mean? May Allah open your heart to this!
**And THEY SAID IN BOAST,
WE KILLED CHRIST
JESUS THE SON OF MARY, THE APOSTLE OF GOD-
BUT THEY KILLED HIM NOT,
NOR CRUCFIED HIM
BUT IT WAS MADE TO APPEAR TO THEM SO,
AND THOSE WHO DIFFER THEREIN
ARE FULL OF DOUBTS
WITH NO CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE
BUT THEY FOLLOW ONLY CONJECTURE,
FOR A SURETY THEY KILLED HIM NOT.**
Could anyone be more explicit, or more emphatic?????!!!!
A Muslim believes this categorical Quranic statement to be from God. When such a clear ayat comes he asks no questions and quotes no one such as Mirza sahab. If Mirza sahab were true his sayings would not have contradicted with Quran and even Sunnah of the Prophet (saw).
"We hear and we affirm" (Amana sadaqna)
Had he died a natural death , the Quran might have mentioned it. The Quran is saying that he was raised up and there is no mention of natural death either in Quran or Hadith.
At another place in the Quran:
**In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
And (remember) when God said: "O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you ( who worship none but God) superior to those who disbelieve (in the Oneness of God, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, or in His Holy Books) till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute." **Qur'an 3:55 ("The Family of Imran"):
Allah raised him up! You say that according to Mirza Sahab he died a natural death. How can I believe this, since Prophet Muhammad (saw) did not say so!!! In many Ahadith Prophet Muhammad (saw) said that Jesus (pbuh) did not die and will return.
**Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts. **
Sahih Muslim
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 568:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
The Prophet said, "You will be gathered (on the Day of Judgment), bare-footed, naked and not circumcised." He then recited:--'As We began the first creation, We, shall repeat it: A Promise We have undertaken: Truly we shall do it.' (21.104) He added, "The first to be dressed on the Day of Resurrection, will be Abraham, and some of my companions will be taken towards the left side (i.e. to the (Hell) Fire), and I will say: 'My companions! My companions!' It will be said: 'They renegade from Islam after you left them.' Then I will say as the Pious slave of Allah (i.e. Jesus) said. 'And I was a witness Over them while I dwelt amongst them. When You took me up You were the Watcher over them, And You are a witness to all things. If You punish them. They are Your slaves And if You forgive them, Verily you, only You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (5.120-121)
Sahih Muslim
*001, Number 0293:
Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: A section of my people will not cease fighting for the Truth and will prevail till the Day of Resurrection. He said: Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their (Muslims') commander would invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some (amongst you). This is the honour from Allah for this Ummah.
*
**Abu Dawud
Number 4310:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him. **
Allah is all powerful and mighty. Keeping someone alive for centuries is no problem for Him. (didn't he keep the people of cave alive?) If he died a natural death than that means that he would be made alive again? The HAdith don't mention that!
The problem seems to be that more importance is given to somebody else than Quran and Sunnah.
With due respect, Mirza sahab has no place in my heart. He might be very highly respected by you as the promised messiah but this surely is not the case since from no where does he qualify to be one. His writings contradict with the Quran and Hadith. 1.5 billion Muslim majority in the world doesen't even know about him. I would have believed on him had he said things in confirmity with Quran and Sunnah. Even If i had believed on him, I wouldn't have made a separate jumaat and cut myself off from the rest of the Ummah. "And hold fast all together to the rope of Allah and not be divided amongst yourselves." I wouldn't have called myself Ahmedi Muslim. I do not even want myself to be called Sunni or Shia Muslim. Did the Prophet (saw) call himself Sunni, Shia or Ahmedi?? We are just Muslims, than why these divisions of jamaats, imams, mehdis and messiahs??? Our leader is Muhammad (saw) who has by the will of Allah given us the complete deen which is simple and straight! We are his nation!
Since the deen is complete as mentioned in the Quran (Today I have perfected your religion...) then why are these new things coming up? Why can't you guys be simple Muslims? I do not consider you non-Muslims! You are like my other Muslim brothers. (i know for saying this many would consider me kafir also) Please do think and ponder deeply as to why so many people call you kafirs.
Mr. Islamabad,
Ahmadis believe that Jews was not able to kill just mentionted in the Quranic verse you quoted. But that doesn't mean that as they were not able to kill him or crucify him, he surely would have ascended to the heavens. What if they were made to appear to Jews that they indeed have killed Jesus and then after they left the place where Jesus was put on the cross. When his disciples removed his body from the cross, he was still alive. He then migrated to India and died a natural death.
The major difference between Ahmadis and mainstream Muslim population is the death of Jesus. You believe that he ascended to heavens bodily and we believe that he died a natural death.
We both believe that Jesus has to come a second time based on Ahadith and Holy Quran. But because of our belief in Jesus's death, we assume that an ummati of the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) will come as Jesus similar to him not in physical sense but in spiritual sense. Just like Jesus who was the Messiah for Bani-Israel, This jesus would be the Messiah for the Islam and the whole world.
You said that nowhere in Holy Quran there was any mention of Jesus's natural death. You might want to consider following verse of Holy Quran.
Non-Ahmadi Source:
003.144
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.
PICKTHAL: Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.
SHAKIR: And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels!s, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.
This verse clearly show that the Holy Prophet is no more than a messenger and all messengers before have died. No specific mention of Jesus. I wonder Why!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. Islamabad,
003.144
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.
PICKTHAL: Muhammad is but a messenger,** messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him.** Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.
SHAKIR: And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels!s, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.
This verse clearly show that the Holy Prophet is no more than a messenger and all messengers before have died. No specific mention of Jesus. I wonder Why!
[/QUOTE]
Where does the verse say all???? It says many!
You said: "He migrated to India and died a natural death." I quoted so many ahadith, please quote one that he migrated to India and died a natural death.
When Prophet Muhammad (saw) mentioned so much in ahadith, did he naozobillah forget to mention his migration to India? Again I will say that you give importance to some personalities more than Prophet Muhammad (saw) and this becomes the basis of going estray.
I THINK u hit the nail on the head :k:
In the name of Allah the most Gracious the Most merciful
Allahuma saley ala Muhammad wa ala aal e Muhammad!
**[Zukhruf 43:22] Rather they said, “We found our forefathers upon a religion, and we are following their footsteps.”
[Zukhruf 43:23] And similarly, whenever We sent a Herald of Warning before you (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him) into any town, its wealthy people said, “We found our forefathers upon a religion, and we are behind their footsteps.”
[Zukhruf 43:24] The prophet said, “What! Even if I bring to you a path better than what you found your forefathers following?”; they said, “We do not believe in whatever you have been sent with.” **
It is not easy to leave what the forefathers have been following. Blessed are those who seek guidance and accept if they were wrong. We must all die one day and are answerable to Allah.