A question to Ahmedis!

Society Religion & Philosophy
181

Mr Islamabad,
Indeed it is very hard to leave the faith of your forefathers.. I agree 101 %. :) Thats why you are not able to call yourself an Ahmadi Muslim..

Now lets come to the point of discussion, which is Death of Jesus.

The Verse you have quoted, has been a matter of great discussion, not only between Ahmadis and mainstream muslims, but muslims themselves.

*Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise. 4: 158 * Yousuf Ali.

Commentary number 664 by Yusuf Ali to the above verse, as it appears in the original NON REVISED 1977 edition:

"There is difference of opinion as to the exact interpretation of this verse. The words are: The Jews did not kill Jesus, but God raised him up (rafa'u) to Himself. One school holds that Jesus did not die the usual human death, but still lives in the body in heaven; *another holds that he did die (v. 120) but not when he was supposed to have to be crucified, and that his being "raised up" unto God means that instead of being disgraced as a malefactor, as the Jews intended, he was on the contrary honoured by God as His Apostle; see also next verse. The same word rafa'a is used in association with honour in connection with Mustafa in xciv. 4. " *

Translation by M. Asad:

*Nay, God exalted him unto Himself - and God is indeed almighty, wise. 4: 158 *

Commentary Number 172 by M. Asad to the above verse reads:

Cf. 3:55, where God says to Jesus, "Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee to Me." The verb rafa'ahu (lit., "he raised him" or "elevated him") has always,*whenever the act of raf' ("elevating") of human being is attributed to God, the meaning of "honouring" or "exalting". Nowhere in the Qur’an is there any warrant for the popular belief that God has "taken up" Jesus bodily, in his lifetime, into heaven. The expression "God exalted him unto Himself" in the above verse denotes the elevation of Jesus to the realm of God's special grace * - a blessing in which all prophets partake, as it is evident from 19:57, where the verbrafa'nahu ("We exalted him") is used with regard to the Prophet Idris, (See also Muhammad Abduh in Manar III, 316 f., and VI, 20f.) The "nay" (bal) at the beginning of the sentence is meant to stress the contrast between belief of the Jesus that they had put Jesus to a shameful death on the cross and the fact of God's having "exalted him unto Himself."

Here is the text of verse 19: 57 for comparison:
And We raised him to a lofty station.

The above view is further supported by a Hadith:

Hazrat Fatima, God be pleased with her, relates from the Holy Prophet:

** "Jesus, son of Mary, lived to the age of 120 years." **

(Kanz-ul-Ummal, vol. vi, p. 120)

Similarly, many modern muslim scholars consider the popular translation of this verse to be a very weak basis of the belief that Jesus was raised up.

The late ** Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi wrote** :

"Mutawaffi-ka means mumitu-ka * and what generally prevails amongst the public about Jesus’ life is a Jewish and Sabean fable … It is not a concealed matter that the source of Islam is the Quran, and in it there is not even one verse proving explicitly that Jesus did not die, and that he is alive and shall come down. These are only the deductions and explanations of some people, and are not free from doubt and uncertainty. How, then, can it be taken to be a fundamental Islamic belief ?"

(Ilham al-Rahman fi-tafsir al-Quran, vol. ii, p. 49)

** Maulana Sayyid Sulaiman Nadawi wrote:**

i. "Looking at the birth of Jesus, his death and the doctrine of Trinity, some American critics and rationalists now believe that Jesus was just a mythical figure."

(Khutbat Madras, p. 42, Sermon No. 2, published by the Lahore Academy, 205 Circular Road, Lahore)

ii. "It appears from this that even before Sir Syed [Ahmad Khan] some Ulama held the same viewpoint as his on this question [of Jesus’ death]. People today who make this issue a standard for determining belief or disbelief in Islam are indulging in extremism."

(Mu‘araf, March 1930, p. 171)

** Khwaja Hasan Nizami of Delhi wrote:**

i. "Westerners believe that Jesus ascended to heaven. The Quran contradicts this Christian belief, for it contains the verse: inni mutawaffi-ka wa rafi‘u-ka ilayya, i.e., ‘O Jesus, I am about to cause you to die, and grant you exaltation and elevation unto Myself ’. This verse proves the death of Jesus. However, there is another verse saying: wa ma qatalu-hu wa ma salabu-hu wa lakin shubbiha la-hum, i.e., the Jews neither killed nor crucified Jesus, but they fell into doubt. This verse proves that Jesus was not put upon the cross, but died his own death. Rising to heaven does not mean that he went up to heaven but that his status in the estimation of God was raised."

(Roznamcha, 16 November 1931, p. 15)

** Maulana Zafar Ali Khan, editor of newspaper Zamindar, wrote:**

i. "If the moral and spiritual teaching left behind with the Israelites by Jesus after his death (wasal) is examined, it appears that only such people could benefit from this inheritance as live in cloisters and monasteries, leading the lives of hermits."

(Punjab Review, compiled by Maulana Zafar Ali Khan, vol. i, no. 1, 8 August 1901)

** Sayyid Abul ‘Ala Maudoodi** has written the following upon this topic:

The Quran does not explicitly state that God raised up Jesus, body and soul, from earth to heaven. Nor does it clearly say that he died a natural death on earth, and that only his soul was raised up. Thus, on the basis of the Quran, neither of these views can be definitely negated or confirmed."

(Tahfim al-Quran by Maulana Maudoodi, p. 240)

** As far as the Ahadith on Descent of Jesus are concerned**

The word "nuzool" does not necessarily mean physical descent. Like Quran says,

057.025
YUSUFALI: We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His messengers: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).

The word Nuzul is also used for Iron, and the book, and God's blessings.. I thank Allah that it is not the literal Nuzool of iron, otherwise things could have been pretty tough for human survival..*

182

Mr. Islamabad

You quoted:

[QUOTE]

Again I will say that you give importance to some personalities more than Prophet Muhammad (saw) and this becomes the basis of going estray.
[/QUOTE]

Please hesitate from putting words into my mouth. Its my firm believe that there is no human ever in this world 'Afzal' than the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him).

And in the translation of Holy Quran of the verse from Surah-e-Nisah only, YusufAli has used the world 'many'. And in actual Quran text the word 'many' is not used at all.

Another verse from Holy Quran:

005.075
YUSUFALI: Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
PICKTHAL: The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!
SHAKIR: The Messiah, son of Marium is but a messenger; messengers before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.

Now you can again see that only YusufAli has used the word 'many. Not the other two translators.

One can also see that why Quran has to mention (specificaly in case of Jesus ) that all the Messengers before him have passed away. I think because like all the other messengers, Jesus was also a human and just like all the other messengers, he would also have to die a natural death.

About all the Ahadith about Jesus coming back, we have to come to conclusion that whether he is dead or alive. If he is dead than according to Ahadith you mentioned, somebody else have to come in his mould. Otherwise IF he is still alive somewhere in heavens, we have to accept your position

183

*
"This is true that Maseeh went to his native place, and died there, but this is not true that the same body which was buried, became alive again..... verse 3 chapter I of Acts is a testimony about the natural death of Jesus that took place in Khaleeli after his death, Maseeh was visible to his students as KASHF (vision) for 40 days." (Izala-e-Auham, Roohani Khazain vol.3 p.353-354)
*
The above statement is used to further strengthen the claim that Jesus died. Do u mean to tell me that he just refered to part of the Verse from the bible as right to suit his own claim ( the part saying that he DIED) and the part where it mentions him being burried at Khaleeli is dis-regarded???

[quote]

Mr. Perplexing.

Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad never said that the grave of jesus is in Syria. He wrote that its in 'Bilad-e-Shaam'. And Al-Quds (now Israel, Palestine) was part of Bilad-e-Shaam.

If you go there, you can still find the tomb of jesus there but body of jesus couldn't be found there. I believe that there is big chappel on top of this tomb.

[/quote]

Mister fateh for your kind information the letter provided by Mirza Sahib written by Molvi Sahib says that it was referered as SYRIA ( read the letter, its translated in urdu).

[quote]
This verse clearly show that the Holy Prophet is no more than a messenger and all messengers before have died. No specific mention of Jesus. I wonder Why!
[/quote]

Its really ironic that u r drilling Mister Islamabad on the fact that this verse does not mention anything about jesus (even though I think there was no need once its has been already said that he was raised) and u expect me to agree with you on the fact that Mirza Sahib was merely expressing that there is a Grave with NO body.....he in fact goes in detail tyring to prove that the grave is there and supports his claim by giving a long letter from some one living in the same place....Does he say that there is no body in that grave??? I don't think he does...I wonder why???

184

Mr. Perplexing,

You are repeating the same allegations again! and its already answered by Mr. Destino already! He has already mentioned that first two are from the biblical stories and historical facts. You can't deny it there is a tomb of jesus in AL-QUDS, whether its empty or not.

Right now we are discussing verses of Holy Quran which is talking about the death of Jesus and all the messengers like him. If you have a different interpretation of these verses then please enlighten us.

185

Mister Fateh Ahmad before moving to every so called Allegation I inform you and we come to an agreement and then move on. I did not ask you about the Interpretation of the verses...I asked u the reason why it says that his grave is in 3 different places...if u have a satisfactory answer then feel free to express it, if not then let me know...we will move on.

186

Mr. Perplexing,
As i have explained earlier that The three "graves" that you are pointing out from Promised Massiah's writings are just mentioned there because different people believed them to be there.
The grave is in Kashmir, and that is a claim from Promised Massiah (as). The other two locations were mentioned in his writings at different times in different contexts. And the debate was on death of Jesus, which is proven by Bible, History and above all Quran.

187

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
Mr Islamabad,
Indeed it is very hard to leave the faith of your forefathers.. I agree 101 %. :) Thats why you are not able to call yourself an Ahmadi Muslim..

[/QUOTE]

Indeed it is hard to leave the faith of your forefathers! Brother, had you read my post with an open heart your would have understood what I meant. You are still associating yourself with a smaller degree - the degree of Ahmediat (a self created division). What stops you from calling yourself a "Muslim". Why Ahmedi Muslim? Rise above this thinking and you will see light.

I am proud to call myself the follower of Muhammd (saw). I am a "Muslim"! The very word Muslim is so pure. Even in the Quran it is Muslim everywhere. There is no single place where Allah refers to the nation of Muhammad as Ahmedi Muslim. May Allah guide you all and also me.

Surely anybody who adds things to the religion which had been already

188

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
Mr. Perplexing,
As i have explained earlier that The three "graves" that you are pointing out from Promised Massiah's writings are just mentioned there because different people believed them to be there.
The grave is in Kashmir, and that is a claim from Promised Massiah (as). The other two locations were mentioned in his writings at different times in different contexts. And the debate was on death of Jesus, which is proven by Bible, History and above all Quran.
[/QUOTE]

The Quran no where proves the death of Jesus (pbuh). Quran however, does prove that deviators from religion of Islam will be in the depths of hell fire!

"The worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense." (Holy Quran 8:22)

189

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. Islamabad

Please hesitate from putting words into my mouth. Its my firm believe that there is no human ever in this world 'Afzal' than the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him).

[/QUOTE]

If you really believe that there is no human afzal from Prophet Muhammad (saw), then leave everybody else and just follow Muhammad(saw). Why this hypocricy??? You claim that you love Hazrat Muhammad (saw) and at the same time love messiahs and khalifahs???

Why this blind following of people who could commit mistakes. Muhammad (saw) as told in the Quran, never spoke of his own desire, but what he spoke was from Allah! Anybody after the Khatam-An-Nabiyeen does not have this status.

Without realizing, many people have elevated the status of ordinary people to the level of Prophet(saw). Even if Mirza sahab said a thing, what guarantee is there that it is right? Was he getting Wahi's???

Even if real Imam Mehdi comes, he will follow the religion that has been been perfected - Islam. He will not be making additions to it and saying new things.

I can only pray for you people! (there is no need to get angry, your Mirza's blasphemies hurt us also!)

"The worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense." (Holy Quran 8:22)

190

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Islamabad: *

If you really believe that there is no human afzal from Prophet Muhammad (saw), then leave everybody else and just follow Muhammad(saw). Why this hypocricy??? You claim that you love Hazrat Muhammad (saw) and at the same time love messiahs and khalifahs???
[/QUOTE]

Its the love of the Prophet S.A.W that teaches us to love all humanity.

[QUOTE]
Even if real Imam Mehdi comes, he will follow the religion that has been been perfected - Islam. He will not be making additions to it and saying new things.
[/QUOTE]

You are not so sure about the arrival of the Imam Mahdi i think..

Well we follow the Imam Mahdi.. And there is NO addition, subtraction from the teachings of Quran and Sunnah.. rest assured..

And the topic was death of Jesus.. and you said

[QUOTE]
The Quran no where proves the death of Jesus (pbuh).
[/QUOTE]

I say it proves not once but dozens of times, that Jesus died.

and then you again deviate from the point of discussion

[QUOTE]
Quran however, does prove that deviators from religion of Islam will be in the depths of hell fire!
[/QUOTE]

and send us to hell for the crime of not agreeing with you.. how convinient..

191

Anybody can deviate. We all have to pray that we don't, till we die.

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!
(The Holy Quran Al-E-Imran 3:78)

192

Fateh Ahmad Sahib... I did not recive anything from you in response to the previous post so I am assuming that was your final answer and in that case I would like to move on to the next allegation, as you would put it...

What is the meaning of Khatam An-Nabi in Ahmadiyat. Why does this word leave room for some one else to be called a prophet (Mirza Sahib) after Prophet SAW?

193

Khatm means seal. And Kahtm u nabiyyeen means, seal of prophets (saw).
It means that Prophet Muhammad (saw) was the last Prophet who brought the final book, the final and completed shariah to the world. There can be no Prophet after him, claiming to add to his teachings or to bring anything better or different.

We believe that Promised Massiah (as) is the same Prophet as foretold in Ahadith as Ibn e Marayam and Imam Mahdi. His status is of a Prophet in a same way Jesus was the Prophet after Moses. Hadith clearly mentions the revival of Islam by a Massiah who will be "apostle of Allah".

194

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
Anybody can deviate. We all have to pray that we don't, till we die.

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!
(The Holy Quran Al-E-Imran 3:78)
[/QUOTE]

Absolutely true. Ask Imam Malik (ra), why he believed Isa (as) died. And when he says that he died, you will surely put forth the above verse.

Ask Hazrat Ibn e Abbas, the same.
Hazrat Abu bakr, Hazrat Umar, Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Fatimah, Hazrat Imam Hassan.. (may peace be upon them all).. And you surely will be in a position to impose this ayat on them, and prove them to associate a lie against Allah.

They all believed Jesus had died.

195

[quote]

Khatm means seal. And Kahtm u nabiyyeen means, seal of prophets (saw).
It means that Prophet Muhammad (saw) was the last Prophet who brought the final book, the final and completed shariah to the world. There can be no Prophet after him, claiming to add to his teachings or to bring anything better or different.

We believe that Promised Massiah (as) is the same Prophet as foretold in Ahadith as Ibn e Marayam and Imam Mahdi. His status is of a Prophet in a same way Jesus was the Prophet after Moses. Hadith clearly mentions the revival of Islam by a Massiah who will be "apostle of Allah".

[/quote]

Mr. Destino In the Quran, in Surah Ahzab it is said....
*
O people ! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, He is the Apostle of God
and the Last in the line of Prophets (Khatam-un-Nabiyeen). And God is Aware of everything."
(Surah Al Ahzab 33.40)
*
The Ahmadi translation differes with this one slightly "it says SEAL of Prophets". Subhanullah The Ayah starts off with saying that there is "no son of the Prophet SAW" and then it says that the Prophet is the SEAL...it ends with "ALLAH is all knowing"......there is so much stress on him being the last (does'nt say ZILLI last or the one with the book last)leaving, no space for any ZILLI nabi....

Lets see what does the Hadith has to say....(note I am quoting Bukhari)
*The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: "The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me." (Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Manaqib). *

This is not a ZAIF hadith.....

Then we have the Last sermon.....
*
O’ people! No Prophet would be raised after me and no new Ummah (would be rasied) after you." (Seerat Ibne Hisham, The Last Sermon)
*

So we have an Ayah from the Quran, A QAWI Hadith and the last sermon...but according to Ahmadiyat the Ayah means something different, the Hadith is obvioulsy not recognised as authentic and then the sermon is said to be altered....

** so lets see what Mirza Sahib had to say......**

*`Apart from these arguments, the second coming of Jesus is also barred by the verse: wa lakin rasul-Allahi wa Khatam an-nabiyyin *; and also by the Holy Prophet's Saying: La nabiyya badi [There is to be no prophet after me]. How could it be permitted that, despite our Holy Prophet, peace and the blessings of God be upon him, being the Khatam al-anbiya [Last of the Prophets], some other prophet should appear sometime and the `revelation of prophets' commence.''

(Ayyam as-Sulh, p. 47)

`In the verses haveakmal-tu la-kum dina-kumday I perfect I perfected for you yourThis religion'], and rasul-Allahi wa Khatam wa lakin an-nabiyyinprophethood with , God has clearly terminated the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and the blessings of God be upon him, and has stated unequivocally that the Holy Prophet is the Last Prophet. But those people who would have Jesus return to this world believe that he shall come with his prophethood, and for a full forty-five years the angel Gabriel shall come to him with the revelation of prophets'. Now tell us how, under this belief, anything would be left of the finality of prophethood and the ending of therevelation of prophets'? In fact, one would have to believe that Jesus is the last of the prophets.''

(Tuhfa Golarwiya, p. 83)
*

The above excripts r from books that r hard to find right now so I will quote from Roohani Khazain..since our readers have more accessability to that...

*"Can such an unfortunate fabricator who himself claim prophethood and messengership believe in Holy Quran, and can such a person who believes in Quran and believes in the verse [wa laakin Rasoolullah wa Khatam-un-Nabiyeen] as the word of God, that I am also a prophet and messenger after Holy Prophet SAAW?" (Anjam-e-Atham, Roohani Khazain vol.11 p.27) *

Lets see what Mirza Sahib was meant by the word KHATAM.....

"I WAS KAHTAM-UL-WALAD (Seal of Son) FOR MY FATHER. NO CHILD WAS BORN AFTER ME." (Braheen Ahmadiyya part 5, Roohani Khazain, vol. 21 p. 113)

(No ZILLI son was born after him)

I have illustrated many of the few examples where its proven that the Prophet SAW was the last prophet in every sense......The question I would like to leave u with is that how can u deny all these.....???*

196

KHATAM is an Arabic word and in Arabic dictionaries, it has many meanings. One of them is 'LAST' and the other one is 'SEAL'. According to Tajul Aroos, Lisanul Arab, and Qamoos, the real meaning of 'KHATAM' is SEAL.

From www.alislam.org:

The context of a verse is a most important factor in determining its true meaning. If we look into the context of the words we are further assured of the same meaning.

The verse runs as follows: "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of God and Khataman Nabiyyeen." God is obviously refuting an objection, viz., Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be on him) has no male issue. Elsewhere we read in the Quran: "Surely it is thy enemy and not thou who shall be childless and without posterity." (108:4)

These words are said to have been revealed when Al-Aas Ibn Wayel called the Holy ProphetSAW Abtar (having no children or posterity) on the death of his son Al-Qasim (see Jalaluddin's Commentary under verse 108:4). As an answer to this taunt of the enemies, God declared in the verse under discussion that the line of his physical male descendants is no doubt cut off by the death of his sons but as Hadhrat Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be on him) is a Messenger of God, he possesses devoted followers who shall form a continuous and long line of spiritual descendants to keep his memory and name and teachings alive for ever and ever.

The followers of a prophet are often described as his spiritual children. The meaning of the word Khataman Nabiyyeen must fit with this context. To say that Hadhrat Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be on him) is the last of the prophets and there shall be no prophet after him does no credit to him. His enemies could at once add an insult by saying that Hadhrat Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be on be him) failed to produce a progeny in the spiritual sense of the word also and thus proved himself (God forbid) barren and abtar in every respect. According to the context, therefore, the Seal of the Prophets must mean that the spiritual descendants of Hadhrat Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be on be him) would be of no mean order. They would, God says, attain to great spiritual distinctions so must so that by following in his footsteps some of them would even become prophets.
(From www.alislam.org).

197

Fateh Ahmad Sahib....U have repeatedly in the past have done the same thing....u r giving me the Information from the source of an Ahmadi website www.alislam.org if I found that authentic along with NON-AHMADI muslims we would not have this discussion....
Correct me if I am wrong....but I would think that the person using a particualr word would have more knowledge of the meaning.... why did Mirza Sahib say this.....

*
"Can such an unfortunate fabricator who himself claim prophethood and messengership believe in Holy Quran, and can such a person who believes in Quran and believes in the verse [wa laakin Rasoolullah wa Khatam-un-Nabiyeen] as the word of God, that I am also a prophet and messenger after Holy Prophet SAAW?" (Anjam-e-Atham, Roohani Khazain vol.11 p.27)
*

and why did he say this....

*I WAS KAHTAM-UL-WALAD (Seal of Son) FOR MY FATHER. NO CHILD WAS BORN AFTER ME." (Braheen Ahmadiyya part 5, Roohani Khazain, vol. 21 p. 113)
*

and do u think this Hadith is wrong along with others.....

*
The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: "The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me." (Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Manaqib).
*

I had given u the link to an arabic dictionary for the meaning of the word Baghaya and u did not agree with that....now u r providing me with one yourself....??? Even though Mirza Sahib provided the meaning of* Baghaya* in the Index.....
I would request u to keep ur answers direct and related to what I have asked and then we will move on.......

198

The exact Hadith from Bukhari as as follows (Non-Ahmadi source):

The Prophet said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship."

Prophethood remained with Bani-Israel for thousands of year. It started with Issac AS son of Hazrat Ibrahim and culminated with Jesus AS. And a lot of there prophets was sent with new rules, Laws or Shariat. The last law-bearing prophet for them was Hazrat Musa AS.

I believe then when the Holy Prophet was talking about him being the last prophet and no prophet after him, he is refering to the him being the last law-bearing prophet for Islam and also for the whole world.

In the same Hadith, Holy Prophet also talked about the Caliphs after him and he told that they will keep increasing but if we see in Islamic history, we can only see four true caliphs of the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him). Can you explain that contradiction? I believe it to be in metaphorical sense.

You quoted an excerpt from the writings of Promised Messiah:

[QUOTE]
"Can such an unfortunate fabricator who himself claim prophethood and messengership believe in Holy Quran, and can such a person who believes in Quran and believes in the verse [wa laakin Rasoolullah wa Khatam-un-Nabiyeen] as the word of God, that I am also a prophet and messenger after Holy Prophet SAAW?" (Anjam-e-Atham, Roohani Khazain vol.11 p.27)
[/QUOTE]

I would advise everbody to read pages 26,27 and 28 and you should come to conclusion that the Promised Messiah that there can't be a prophet who doesn't believe the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) to be 'Khatam-un-Nabiyeen' that Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (SAW) was the seal of the prophet and greatest of them all.

About him calling himself 'Khatam-ul-Wald' for his father., Its already discussed that Khatam can be used in two ways. either for being the 'LAST' or being the 'SEAL'. In this case I believe that Promised Messiah was using this word to be meant as 'LAST'. But that doesn't mean that the same meaning should also be used whereever this word.

There is nothing wrong in presenting an excerpt from a website. I firmly and totaly agree with whatever presented on the website: www.alislam.org and is presented in a much better way. If you have a problem with the content of that excerpt then present your arguments.

199

[quote]
I believe then when the Holy Prophet was talking about him being the last prophet and no prophet after him, he is refering to the him being the last law-bearing prophet for Islam and also for the whole world.

In the same Hadith, Holy Prophet also talked about the Caliphs after him and he told that they will keep increasing but if we see in Islamic history, we can only see four true caliphs of the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him). Can you explain that contradiction? I believe it to be in metaphorical sense.

[/quote]

First of all lets get one thing straight that he said no Prophet was coming after him....Your words are "I belive he is refering to himself as the last law bearing Prophet".....This is your interpretation....u r goin to take the issue of the numbers of Caliph from this Hadith and conclude that it was pointing at Ahmadiyat and its Caliphs....but at the same time a simple statement saying that there are goin to be no Prophets after me, thats been taken METAPHORICALY....why is that???? Don't u think Prophet Muhammad Knew better??? If he meant that no law bearing Prophet was goin to come after him.....he would have said so...

Secondly....
According to Histotry there were more than 4 Caliphs.....

*Al-Khulafaul Umawiyyun: 41-132 AH; 661-750 CE.
The Umayyad were the first to mint coins, such as this gold dinar of the Umayyad Caliph Hishâm(735 AD). When Mu'awiya took office, he brought with him a flurry of changes.

*Al-Khulafaul Abbasiyyun: 132-923 AH; 750-1258 CE.

*Al-Khulafaul Bawahid: 861 C.E-1055 C.E

and many more till the begining of 19th century. Which ended with the revolutionary Russian-Turk war.

[quote]

we can only see four true caliphs of the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him). Can you explain that contradiction? I believe it to be in metaphorical sense.

[/quote]

Can u explain to me where in this hadith does it say that the Caliphs have to be TRUE/RIGHT...etc. And who is Judging this???

[quote]

I would advise everbody to read pages 26,27 and 28 and you should come to conclusion that the Promised Messiah that there can't be a prophet who doesn't believe the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) to be 'Khatam-un-Nabiyeen' that Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (SAW) was the seal of the prophet and greatest of them all.

[/quote]

Yes, infact he does say that but he also illudes to the fact that who ever believes in Quran can not call me a Prophet (he denied prophethood altogether in the Begining).....

  • “There is no claim of prophethood. On the contrary, the claim is of sainthood (muhaddasiyyat) which has been advanced by the command of God.” — Izala Auham, 1891, pp. 421–422; RK 3: 320

"How can it be permitted that I claim prophethood and go out of the fold of Islam and join the party of Kaafirs?" (Humamatul Bushra, Roohani Khazain vo.7 p.297)

"O People!... Do not be an enemy of Quran and after Khatamun Nabiyeen do not start new silsila of prophetic revelation." (Asmani Faisla, Roohani Khazain vol.4 p.335)

"Can such a wretched fabricator who claims himself to be a prophet and messenger, have faith in Quran, and can such a person who have faith in Quran and believes the verse: 'wa laakin Rasoolullah wa Khatemun Nabiyeen' to be the word of Allah, say that I am also a messenger and prophet after Holy Prophet SAAW?" (Anjame Atham, Roohani Khazain vol.11 p.297)

"I am neither a claimant of prophethood and nor I deny miracles, angels and Night of Power .... and after Syedna wa Maulana Muhammad SAAW, Khatemul Mursaleen, i consider any claimaint of prophethood and messengership to be a liar and kaafir." (Tableeghe Risalat vol.2 p.22, Collection of Advertisements vol.1 p.230)
*

My question is why did the meaning of Khatim-An-Nabi change when denying the Prophethood???

200

There were only four khulafa e rashideen. (righly guided caliphs).
After that was mulookiyat..or family dynasties.. not caliphate..
The word khalifa is applied to the person who truely follows the right path.. and this is proven from Quran.

and the rest of your objections are answered right here in your own reply.

*"O People!... Do not be an enemy of Quran and after Khatamun Nabiyeen do not start new silsila of prophetic revelation." (Asmani Faisla, Roohani Khazain vol.4 p.335) *

There is no new chain of revelation.