A question to Ahmedis!

Perplexing · May 10, 2003, 4:15pm

Hello Mister Fateh Ji.....sorry for making ya wait...so lets see where were we...o yeah
*
"What apparent explanation our Scholars have done for Surah Al-Zilzal that in reality in the last days a severe earthquake would come and it would be such an earth quake that the entire earth will be upside down and things inside the earth would come out and humans, that is kaafir would ask the earth what has happened to you? then that day earth would talk and would reveal her condition,** this is an absolutely wrong explanation." (Roohani Khazain vol.3 pp.166-167)**
*
Now let us see what is the explanation. Open Tafseer Ibne Katheer, last volume and the tafseer of Surah Al-Zilzal. It says:

(keep in mind the Hadith related by Abu-Hurayrah RA are one of the most reliable ones in terms of their authencity)

In Sahih Muslim Holy Prophet Muhammad SAAW says: Hadith 2210 Narrated byAbuHurayrah Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: The earth will vomit long pieces of its liver like columns of gold and silver, and the murderer will come and say: It was for this that I committed murder. The breaker of family ties will come and say: It was for this that I broke the family ties; and the thief will come and say: It is for this that my hands were cut off. They will then leave it and will not take anything out of it. Man would be astonished that day and will say that this was not even moving, it was stationary, what has happened to it that it is shaking like a stick? And when he would see that it has expelled previous dead bodies, then he would be more perturbed as to what has happended to it? Thus earth will completely changed and sky too, and all persons would stand in front of Allah/Qahhar, earth will give clear evidence that such and such person has done such and such sins.

Holy Prophet Muhammad SAAW recited this verse and then said: Do you know what would be the news given by the earth? People said, Allah and His Prophet know best; then he said: Whatever deeds the son of Adam has done on earth, all those things it would reveal that such and such has done such and such good deed or bad deed....." (Tafseer Ibne Katheer, vol.5 p.585-586, Tafseer of Surah Al-Zilzal)

In other words what scholars of Islam have written, it is not their own opinion but it is based on What Holy Prophet SAAW had said. But Mirza Sahib says that this tafseer is absolutely wrong, he is saying that Holy Prophet SAAW was wrong and He did not understand the true meaning of this surah and gave us a wrong explanation. (Ma'azAllah summa Ma'azAllah)

Now let us see what Mirza Sahib thinks is the meaning of this Surah:

According to Mirza Sahib, Surah alZilzal is actually giving a gladtiding of his coming:
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"God is giving a gladtiding in Surah Al-Zilzal about the coming era and with the words 'iza zulzilat' is indicating that when you see these signs, then you should know that that Night of the Power has again come with its full force and some Godly Reformer has descended from god with angels to spread the guidance." (Izala-e-Auham 113, Roohani Khazain vol.3 p.161)
*
So who is deviating from the the explanation given by Holy Prophet SAAW? Mirza Sahib or our Ulema? If what Mirza Sahib is saying is correct, then obviously He is saying the Holy Prophet SAAW (ma'azAllah) did not understand the meaning of Surah Al-Zilzal.

Mister FatehAhmad sahib, in an answer to Islamabad u requested him not to jump ahead...well I would request the same from you...read this since this was addressed in your last post and then we will get back to where we left off the, the topic of BAGHAYA.....

Islamabad · May 10, 2003, 8:28pm

"Show us the right path"

Islamabad · May 11, 2003, 5:53am

So no answer from Ahmedis?

AvgAmericanGirl · May 11, 2003, 11:38am

Forget Ahmadi's (or whatever)

When you wish to be shown the right path.. God will teach you. You may find you learn something from an unexpected source. Doesn't matter. When you feel god inside your heart you firstly most of all should listen.

Didn't Jesu say "All who have ears hear?"

What does that mean?

What if one is deaf and cannot hear words? Does the phrase still have meaning?

Absolutely it does. Always.

Means listen to your heart. Listen. Only Listen. Then you will hear what is meant for you to hear. What God meant for you to hear.

Always listen closely to what God determines for you to hear. The lessons you learn from God are the most important lessons a human is able to absorb.

Pray everyday. Your word's aren't as important as your intention and understanding. Doesn't matter if you might recite the words wrong, or recite the words perfectly. What matters is the faith you hold inside when you pray.

NYAhmadiX · May 12, 2003, 12:08am

Hey, if someone can take a pony ride to paradise and come back in a jiffy, why can’t someone else claim to be a prophet? Why?

Degas · May 12, 2003, 12:33am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
Hey, if someone can take a pony ride to paradise and come back in a jiffy, why can’t someone else claim to be a prophet? Why?
[/QUOTE]

surely one can ! thousands claim that every day.. some drunk - some delirious.. some even claim to be God..

system · May 12, 2003, 12:37am

^ degas, you rang? :D

johnd · May 12, 2003, 12:46pm

<< surely one can ! thousands claim that every day.. some drunk - some delirious.. some even claim to be God.. >>

Sure, so Mehdi will be drunk too, so what will he drink before he will lead the prayer? So, Is Jesus also will come down drunk right!!!!
Might be a special wine from heaven.

Degas · May 12, 2003, 12:57pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by johnd: *
<< surely one can ! thousands claim that every day.. some drunk - some delirious.. some even claim to be God.. >>

Sure, so Mehdi will be drunk too, so what will he drink before he will lead the prayer? So, Is Jesus also will come down drunk right!!!!
Might be a special wine from heaven.
[/QUOTE]

.. i never said that.. I was replying why cant anyone claim prophethood.. so many do .. but truth about them is known to Allah alone.. I believe message for humanity was completed with Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and integrity of Quran is a proof.. so no need for more revelation after Prophet Muhammad's era... reformers have come and tried to clean the bidaat's from society but remained adherent to Quran and sunnah with finality of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Claiming one as equal or same or mirror of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is not acceptable to me but if someone do it its their own faith..

johnd · May 12, 2003, 1:31pm

Now thats the proper way, now let me tell you our standings.

1- We believe that promised one has come who was promised by all the religions and their prophets.

2- We believe that Hazur (SAW) came to bring humanity close to God and not to put a distance between them. We believe that God is more Vocal than he was ever before and that was a real miracle of over beloved Prophet (SAW).

We only believe what we were given by our Master Hazur (SAW), we never did or never will pass the line drawn by our Master (SAW). Leave that matter to ALLAH all knowing.

Allah Knows the best.

fatehahmad · May 12, 2003, 9:31pm

Mr. Perplexing,

First of all you failed to prove in your mail that the Promised Messiah himself wrote that the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) didn’t correctly understand Surah-e-Zilzal. You have based on your assumption on a Hadith from Tafseer Ibne Kaseer narrated by Hazrat 'Abd Allah ibn Abbas.

I tried to look over the internet for the Hadith from Sahi Muslim and I found it over a website (Non-Ahmadi source). The link is :

Book 5, Number 2210:

Its a little bit different from what you wrote in your mail. It was under the Chapter17 : CONCERNING ONE WHO SPENDS AND WHO WITHHOLDS. The Full text is as follows:

Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenaer (may peace be upon him) as saying: The earth will vomit long pieces of its liver like columns of gold and silver, and the murderer will come and say: It was for this that I committed murder. The breaker of family ties will come and say: It was for this that I broke the family ties; and the thief will come and say: It is for this that my hands were cut off. They will then leave it and will not take anything out of it.

The Hadith you quoted was a little bit longer that the above I got from the website. Please rectify me if I am wrong!

And for the Hadith in Tafseer Ibne Kaseer, please visit the following web page and you’ll find a very interesting topic there:

Surah Zilzal understanding

I request you to read it.

system · May 13, 2003, 6:57pm

What I love is when Mirza sahib called the clergy “sons of prostitutes.” I mean, he just hit the nail on the head… Although Im sure he could have come up with more descriptive insults, guess he was trying to be nice:)
Regardless, the old adage certainly applies here! If the show fits:hehe:

Perplexing · May 15, 2003, 8:47am

Yes Mister Fatheh Sahib....the fact that Mirza Sahib said that the Ulemas were wrong for what they have interpreted as the meaning of this Sura, which according to my SO called assumption, means that he in-fact meant that Prophet SAW did not understand the meaning...but if ur asking me, did he actually write those words?? NO! he did'nt.....
whats very interesting to me is, true, that the references of the websites u have provided have the Hadith shorter in length.....but does that mean that u have accepted them as CREDIBLE...coz if u have they still are not concurrent with the explanation given by Mirza Sahib....secondly the article that you have provided was very well written....

*In the first instance, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever in the source material of Islamic literature to suggest that the meaning and explanation of Surah Zilzal attributed to Hadhrat Muhammadsa by these later works were actually heard from him by Hadhrat Ibn Abbasra personally. It is an established fact of Islamic history that Hadhrat 'Abd Allah ibn Abbasra was born 3 years before Hijra9 which means that he was only 13 years of age at the time of Prophet Muhammad'ssa demise.10 It has also been reported on the authority of Hadhrat Yahya ibn Sa'id al Qattanrh, one of the greatest scholars of Hadeeth literature, that Hadhrat Ibn Abbasra related only between 4 to 10 Traditions from the Prophet of Islamsa himself.11
*

in the above paragraph the argument is based on the age of the narrator. Which to me has no relevance bcoz at the end they have stated that he did infact relate some Hadith, now who is to say this hadith was not one of them..???
** thirdly** one of the Hadith I had provided was by Abu Hurayrah

[quote]
tried to look over the internet for the Hadith from Sahi Muslim and I found it over a website (Non-Ahmadi source). The link is :

Book 5, Number 2210:

Its a little bit different from what you wrote in your mail. It was under the Chapter17 : CONCERNING ONE WHO SPENDS AND WHO WITHHOLDS. The Full text is as follows:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenaer (may peace be upon him) as saying: The earth will vomit long pieces of its liver like columns of gold and silver, and the murderer will come and say: It was for this that I committed murder. The breaker of family ties will come and say: It was for this that I broke the family ties; and the thief will come and say: It is for this that my hands were cut off. They will then leave it and will not take anything out of it.
[/quote]

there is no mention of this Hadith in the article...due to which I will allude to the fact that this was acceptable in the eyes of the writer of that article or you, meaning, again it has no trace of what Mirza Sahib said...

"What apparent explanation our Scholars have done for Surah Al-Zilzal that in reality in the last days a severe earthquake would come and it would be such an earth quake that the entire earth will be upside down and things inside the earth would come out and humans, that is kaafir would ask the earth what has happened to you? then that day earth would talk and would reveal her condition, this is an absolutely wrong explanation." (Roohani Khazain vol.3 pp.166-167)

FatehAhmad Sahib I would like for you, yourself read the translation of this Sura and then ask your self what scenario is being painted? the day of judgement or the day Mirza Sahib arrived??...I would have loved to paste the Translation from the Ahmadi website but they do not allow that so I would have to go with a NON-AHMADI source...

*Surah AlZilzal:
Ayah 1 When the Earth is shaken to her (utmost) convulsion
Ayah 2 And the Earth throws up her burden (from within)
Ayah 3 And man cries (distressed): `What is the matter with her?'
Ayah 4 On that Day will she declare her tidings:
Ayah 5 For that thy Lord will have given her inspiration.
Ayah 6 On that Day will men proceed in companies sorted out to be shown the Deeds that they (had done).
Ayah 7 Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good see it!
Ayah 8 And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil shall see it.
*

The whole chapter refers to the end of the world, and day of Judgement when everyone will give account of each and every deed he has done.

Now read these verses in conjunction with other verses of Quran about what will happen towards the end, and the day of Judgement, read various Ahadith about the End and Qiyamah, as well as read the hadith that I have quoted, the meaning is obvious.
and is there any Hadith related to the Prophet SAW saying that the meaning is otherwise???...if there is please inform me...

** P.S. There was a reason I was avoiding topics which would indulge us in abstract arguements about peopls' ages and some scholars not accepting some Ahadith...since there were no references given in that article you provided.....it would be really hard for us to reach what we r aiming at.....Rubana Yassir**

fatehahmad · May 15, 2003, 3:17pm

Mr. Perplexing,

So You are accepting that the Promised Messiah himself didn’t Nauzobllah accuse Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) of not understanding the meaning of Surah-e-Zilzal.

And you also suggested that based on your assumption, you are saying that He did attacked Holy Prophet (Peace be upom him).

And I am saying that based on my assumption, He didn’t mean any such thing.

To get a clear picture what Promised Messiah please read the whole thing in context. Don’t just read the page 166 from Ruhani Khazain vol. 3. But also read pages preceding to it and the pages after it. So I would request you to also read page 165,166, 167,168 and 169.

You can go to the following Ahmadiyya website to get a English translation and a short commentary of Holy Quran. Go to Surah-e-Zilzal and see what is the Ahmadiyya belief in the meaning of Surah.

Holy Quran: English Translation (Ahmadiyya source)

Destino · May 17, 2003, 7:06pm

Assalamo Alykum,
It is clear that mullahs try to put their vulgar ideas infront of people by twisting the translations and by taking statements out of context.
so manytimes we have argumetns with friends and many times the whole thing just starts by someone taking something out of context. Or purposefully put that way infront of others to start a fight...

the best way to resolve this is to ask the person involved.. and to get the facts first hand.. instead of taking them out of hatemongering websites..

thanks.

Perplexing · May 18, 2003, 1:28am

Mister Fateh Ahmad...I have read the pages that u asked me to and I also read the commentary provided by you although I read it before....but I would like to put something in perspective here..I was asking for an explanation of the meaning provided by Mirza Sahib ( I know what it is, I am not confused about that)...which is quite different from the one understood by the present Muslims...It is apparent that the commentary provided by the Ahmadi website incorporates Mirza Sahib in alot of places which is not the case in other commentaries found at the present time....so if u do not have anything that would support the meaning of Surah Zil-Zal put forth by Mirza Sahib, in the light of Sunnah and the actual meaning of that Surah then I should suggest we move forward....

** P.S. I also have a humble request Instead of pointing out the pages to me, I would like for you to illustrate what particular content you r addressing and why u think it is of specific importance...so that the readers can follow this discussion. As some of them would be deprived of which, due to the lack of the books or the language skills itself...Thank You.**

fatehahmad · May 18, 2003, 6:32am

Mr. Perplexing,

The whole issue is taking the literal meaning of Surah-e-Zilzal and non-liternal one. Promised Messiah wrote that Molvies made an error when they took the meaning of Surah-e-Zilzal to be literal i.e. Earth will it self would turn upside down (Like turning a table upside down). He wrote that this is not the correct meaning. It has to be taken in metamorphical sense. What would happen if earth is physicaly turned upside down. Everything on top should go in bottom including every living thing on earth. Then how could humans say at that very moment that what is happening to earth? They should already be buried under a huge amount of earth, soil and rock (as they are also turned upside down along with everything else). Thats exactly Promised Messiah wrote in his book.

I think we should be now be moving to the next allegation!

Perplexing · May 19, 2003, 9:28pm

Mister Fateh Ahmad Sahib, Yes...since there was no Hadith provided by you to support that interpretation of Surah Zil-Zal we move forward....

Can you please tell me, where is the grave of Jesus, according to Mirza Ahmad Sahib?

Destino · May 20, 2003, 10:55am

Just my two pence in the question on Sura Zilzal..
There is always room for interpretations in Quran, without the necessity of calling someone apostate as a result of them.

The allegation is that Promised Massiah (as) said that Prophet Muhammad (saw) did not understand the meanings of the sura. (naoozobillah).
The realily is that that particular passage was actually addressed to muslim scholars and thier understanding of the verses, which were based on some ahadith.
Let me put to you a very well known point of argument between sunni and shia scholars.
The argument arose on the real meanings of verse 33:33.

"And God only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless. "

Shia bring forward some very authentic traditions in favour of their claim that only Hazrat Fatima (ra) and Hazrat Ali (ra) and their progeny is ahlul Bayt and not the wives of the Prophet (saw).

Sunnis believe that all the wives are included in the household of the Prophet (SAW).

The famous ahadith, known as Kissa (the Gown) tradition are claimed to be very authentic and without any doubt whatsoever by the shia scholars.

The following Sahih Hadith is found in 70 different places with minor alterations and is said to be the basis of Shia beliefs that Wives of the Prophet (saw) are not included in the household.

"The mother of Believers, Aisha says: "One day, the messenger of Allah left the house at the afternoon and he was wearing a cloak. Then Hasan bin Ali came and the Prophet took him under his cloak. Next Hussain bin Ali came and the Prophet took him under his cloak. After that Fatima came and the Prophet took her under his cloak. Finally, Ali came, and the Prophet took him under his cloak. Then the Prophet said: "And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye Members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless"

So, according to sunni belief that wives of the Prophet (Saw) are included in the household, we may assume from the same principle set by Mullahs in sura Zilzal's case, that sunnis believe that Prophet (Saw) did not (naoozobillah) understand the real meanings of 33:33.

Seems a bit harsh, does'nt it.. But sunnis will say, no, thats a lie. Our belief is also based on many other ahadith and traditions which also include the wives of the Prophet(saw) in the household..
Similarly, our understanding of Sur Zilzal is based on the real sunnah of Holy Prophet (saw) and not just on one HAdith...

I hope you understand my point here..

Thanks

Destino · May 20, 2003, 11:03am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Perplexing: *

Can you please tell me, where is the grave of Jesus, according to Mirza Ahmad Sahib?

[/QUOTE]

You don't mind if i answer that question..

We believe that the grave is in Kashmir.. and there is overwhelming evidence in support of that.

Jesus (as) did not die on cross, nor was he taken up physcially in heaven, but he survived and went in search of the "lost sheeps of Israel".
Those lost sheep (tribes) were settled in IRan, Afghanistan, modern day Pakistan and KAshmir.. Jesus lived to the age of 120 years and died in Srinagar and is buried in Khanyaar, Srinagar, Kashmir.. His tomb is known as the Tomb of Yuzasif.. There is another famous tomb in Modern day Murree called "maee Maree da Mizaar", hence the name murree.