A question to Ahmedis!

Society Religion & Philosophy
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PaKpatriot1: *

Im no authority onAhmediyat, but there are some VERY intelligent people out there who are Ahmedi, and have studied it wrting and have not found any contradiction in it. Its all in the matter of nterpretat2ion and how you approach it. Im certain some of the more well informed on this site can counter a lot of the contradictions you speak of.
[/QUOTE]

I would like to direct the attention of Mister Patriot towards something...why do u think the Ahmadies blame the MOLVIS??? let me help u answer that...bcoz they r viewed as INTELLIGENT and EDUCATED people and what ever they say about ISLAM we take it for granted and believe in it whole heartdly with blind faith...When the tables r turned u want us to have blind faith in these EDUCATED poeple...this is about your AKHIRAT...U can not take a chance on this!!! and say some educated person believes in this and so will I...bcoz if u go wrong these EDUCATED people will not come between you and hell fire...DO THINK OF THE CONSEQUENCES before u act on it...If I use ur philosophy then I should be an ATHEIST, since majority of that clan is people with a doctorate in philosophy...It is very ironic when people give reasons as "THEY BELIEVE IN IT, IF ITS NOT TRUE WHY IS IT GROWING, WHY R WE SUCCESSFUL...ETC" Do u have any idea that the richest man in the world BILL GATES does not even believe in GOD let alone follow a religion...???do u know that the followers of SCIENTOLOGY r multiplying at an astonishing rate...???
The biggest issue faced by the Prophet SAW was, when asked to believe the non-believers would say "My ancestors believed in this how can WE leave it?"

  • Those who have disbelieved and died in disbelief, the earth full of gold would not be accepted from any of them if it were offered as a ransom. They will have a painful punishment, and they will have no helpers. (Quran, 3:91)*

  • Did you then think that We had created you in jest (without any purpose), and that you would not be returned to Us (in the Hereafter)? So, God is exalted, the True King. None has the right to be worshipped but Him... (Quran, 23:115-116)*

Go find out your purpose....U sit here and read these posts..what is wrong with spending a little time and trying to find out what is in those books???

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?/?????????

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
yess.. the administration really needs to work on their banning.. cuz as I see it... laeeqkhan is stll posting to this thread!!!
[/QUOTE]

Yes they sure do. Thats what they are good at! Maybe you are next.

I have said what I wanted to. I do hope that Ahmedis would think over what has been said. What they think to be an insult to their religion is also an insult to Muslims. The thing their founders have said are very disturbing and no wonder they were banned.

I am sure Ahmedis cannot answer these questions, firstly because they are kept ignorant of these things and also because these things really have no answer.

  • Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did claim to be a Prophet!!

  • There r alot of contradictions in his writings

  • Mirza sahib did say in his book that "GOD makes mistakes, I am GOD, I am BETTER than Prophet Muhammad,

  • He also said that "I am Marry and I concieved Jesus, People who do not believe in me r sons of prostitues."

Prove me wrong. He did say such things and many more, in his books, which Ahmedis must read for themselves. (Everything cannot be metaphorical)

All I ask from Ahmedis is to read what their Mirza actually said for themselves instead of depending on others! It was my duty to inform you. Now it is your duty to study what you follow!

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Those who want to continue this discussion, please feel free. You can discuss/question/argue all about Ahmediat as much as you want. Just make sure you address others' faith as you will like your own faith to be addressed by them. Respect is a two-way street. Rules of the forum are very clear on this.

The posts which did not belong to the thread are removed. Any further irrelevant posts will be removed without warning. If you don't want to post here, thats your choice.

If anyone has questions, please send me a PM. If you wish to complain about something, please send a PM to the Admin.

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TO Mr. Laeeqkhan

Ahmadis are not ignorant of the matter regarding the claim of Hazrat Mirza GHulam Ahmad of Qadian as Promised Messiah.

  1. We Ahmadies do consider Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet and no Ahmadi have any confusion about this matter. Lahori Ahmadies which was separted themselves from the mainstream only consider him as a Mujadid of the Fourteenth century. Please don't confuse their claims with the mainstream Ahmadies. We do consider Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian as a prophet. He didn't bring any new teachings. His source is Holy Quran and He was not a law-bearing prophet.

  2. We Ahmadies don't see any contradictions in the writings of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian. If somebody thinks that there are contradictions that he should present it from the books of Promised Messiah with references.

  3. He claimed to be Jesus not in literal sence but in metaphorical terms. He said that Just like jesus who was the Messiah for Jews and that age, I am the Messiah for Muslims and this age.

  4. You also said that Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wrote that People who do not believe in me r sons of prostitues. Let me quote from the books of Promised Messiah.

The exact translation would be:

"Every Muslim will accept me and will confirm my claim except the zurrayatul baghaya whose hearts will have been sealed up by God Almighty." (Aina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam, Roohani Khazain vol.5 p.547)

Remember that in all languages of the world the words are used in two ways. Either they are taken as literal or they are treated as metaphorical. It is the context which explains that in what sense the author has used them.

To further explain it lets take examples of following verses of Holy Quran where Allah says that :

"The worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense." (Holy Quran 8:22)

At another place Allah says that "Those who were blind in this world will be blind in the Hereafter and most astray from the Path" (Holy Quran 17:72)

(Note: Translation of above verses taken from Non-Ahmadi source)

Can those who overemphasize on literal meanings of "zurrayatul baghaya" also take the words "Blind, Dumb and Deaf" expressed in the verses of Holy Quran quoted above as LITERAL?????

Certainly not !!! Then why overemphasize on Literal Meaning of the words "zurrayatul baghaya"???

According to Promised Messiah (A.S) those whose hearts are sealed by God will not accept him. Here one must note that :

Sealing of heart by God is always used in metaphorical and spiritual sense. (Examples are available in Holy Quran as well). Thus the Promised Messiah (A.S) had made the meaning of "zurrayatul baghaya" very clear by explaining the spiritual state of nonbelievers rather than speaking about their materialistic /physical background.

By simple logic whose hearts are sealed by God could only be those whose spiritual birth and up-bringing is filthy i.e. those who are evil by nature. In spiritual matters it does not make difference that from whose progeny one belong to. Holy Quran clearly explains this phenomenon by giving the example of the Son of Prophet Noah (A.S). God tells us that despite being the progeny of Prophet, his heart was sealed by God, due to his evil nature, and so he did not follow the right path.

In addition to above according to one of the most well known lexicon, Tajul Urus, the term "zurrayatul baghaya" is also used for a person who is deprived of guidance. The "Tajul Urus" clearly states that to call a person "zurrayatul baghaya" means that he is deprived of guidance.

The example of the opponents of Promised Messiah (A.S), who are day and night busy in uttering filth and falsehood against him, is best described in Holy Quran as : "His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him he lolls out his tongue or if you leave him alone he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject our signs; so relate the story; perchance they may reflect." (Holy Quran 7:176).

May Allah give seekers the hidayat! Ameen

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For Mr. Par excellence!
"The posts which did not belong to the thread are removed. Any further irrelevant posts will be removed without warning. If you don't want to post here, thats your choice. "

I have nothing to say to the way you behave. You will never realize!

Mr fatehahmed,
I did not want to answer the post but since you have put me a question, I will answer. As I said, there is a need to read those books directly. I will Quote to make it clear. I never thought about Ahmediat like this until I myself read the books of Mirza sahab.

Here is what he himself said:!!!!!

BAGHAYA. This is the most popular appelate that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian uses for his opponents. What does it mean?

In arabic lexicons, 'baghaya' means, prostitute; adultress, strumpet. (Qamoos Ilyas al-'Asree, Modern by Elias Anton Ellias)

You will agree that the best person who can tell us what exactly this word means is Mirza Ghulam A Qadiani himself. If we analyse his writings, we will surely know what he meant when he used this word for his opponents.

  1. Mirza sahab has used this word in various books:

Following is the index of one particular book, Roohani Khazain volume 16. Under the word 'Baghaya', there are three entries. The first entry says:
Baghaya i.e. Street women (Zanaan-e-Baazari) and the loss that they had caused to the country and generation, its narration: pp: 429-432, p.438.

Exact picture in the following posts. Exact copy from the book explaining baghaya.

For example, in this book Mirza Ghulam has used this word in following instances:
Baghaaya: Zanaan-e-Faasiqa - Corrupt ladies. (Roohani Khazain vol.16 p.426)
Baghaaya alsouq: Zanaan-e-Bazaari - Street women. (ibid p.427)
Baghiya: Zan-e-Faahishaa - Immoral women. (ibid p.428)
Baghaaya: Zanaan-e-Bazaari (ibid p.428)
Baghaaya: Zanaan-e-Faahisha (ibid p.429)

He used this word to mean a prostitute, a harlot.

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Qualities of a God?

Mirza Sahab labeled his forthcoming son to be God and wrote:

“My son, who is going to be born, will be well known and successful, will be manifestation of The First and The Last and will be a expression of Haq and Supremacy as if God has descended from heavens.” (AlBushra Vol.2 P.21-24)

He says:

"I had been given the quality of annihilating and giving life." (Khutba-e-Ilhamiyah P.23; Roohani Khazain Vol.16 P.23)

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About baghaya. The very words of mirza sahab!
[thumb=B]bhagaya.JPG[/thumb]

Roohani Khazain volume 16. pp: 429-432, p.438."

It clearly says what baghaya means!!!!

In the same book Mirza sahab says:
"These books all Muslims look towards it with eyes of love and affection and benefit from its wisdom and everyone accepts me and attest to my prophethood/messiahship/mahdihood, except for the Zurriyatul Baghaaya (Children of prostitutes), whose hearts have been sealed by God, they don't accept."
(Roohani Khazain vol.5 p.547-548)

[thumb=B]5rk547.JPG[/thumb]

About Jehad he wrote:
"To do Jehad with this Government is right or not, thus remember that this question of their's is extremely stupid because how can there be a Jehad against those, to pay gratitude for whose benefaction is obligatory and essential on us? I tell you truthfully that to want bad for the benefactor is the job of a 'HARAMI' (*******) and BADKAAR man." (Roohain Khazain vol.6 p.380)

These are the very words of Mirza sahab. The proof in front of your eyes. May Allah guide us all!!

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To Mr. LaeeqKhan.

I would Inshallah try to answer all of your allegations one by one. But lets settle some unfinished business. In one of your previous mail you wrote and I quote:

[QUOTE]
GOD makes mistakes, I am GOD, I am BETTER than Prophet Muhammad
[/QUOTE]

Can you please give a reference to the book in which Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad said that he was BETTER than the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him).

Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian always claimed to be the Messiah for the Muslims. Jesus was Messiah for the Jews or Messiah-Musvi. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was Messiah for the Muslims or Messiah Muhammadi. Whom do you think should have greater status? Messiah-Musvi or Messiah-Muhammadi! Whom do you think have greater status Hazrat Musa or the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)?

About the other allegations I would Inshallah answer them one by one.

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Dear brother,

I quoted everything from his book. i answered what he says about God. Please read the post above. Also here is what he says:

“Any Hadith (of Holy Prophet PBUH) which is against My Revelation, I throw it away like a waste paper.” (Roohani Khazain Vol 19 p. 140)

“Holy Prophet Mohammed PBUH did not understand the meaning of Surah AlZilzal.” (Roohani KhazainVol 3 p. 166)

“For Him (PBUH) God showed only the sign of Lunar Eclipse, but for me He has shown both Solar and Lunar Eclipse ! Will you still refuse me ?” (Roohani Khazain Vol 19 p. 71).

Meaning of Baghaya from an arabic dictionary:
http://dictionary.ajeeb.com/idrisidic_2.asp?Site=1&DestLang=Ar&lpcWord=Prostitute

About God

Even this is metaphorical???He is plainly saying he is god. !!!

“I saw in my dream that I am exactly God and I believed that I am God, neither my intention remained nor any danger … in this capacity (when I was God) I said: We want a new system, new heavens, new earth. Thus I initially created heaven and earth in a condensed form in which there was neither any differentiation nor any arrangement. Then I separated them and arranged them … and at that moment I found myself capable of doing that. Then I created the first sky and said: ‘Inna zaiyanna assamaa addunya be masaabeeha’ (We have adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps 67.5). Then I said: We will create human with a potion of clay. Thus I made Adam and I created Adam on the best shape and in this manner I became KHALIQ - Creator.”
(Aina-e-Kamalaat-e-Islam P.564-565; Roohani Khazain Vol.5 Pp.564-565)

According to the Quran this is what Pharaoh said: Ana Rabbokum alAla. Tell Muslims what is the difference between these two statements?

There are even more such things in his books!

Dear brother Fatehahmed, please do read these statements because they do not seem metaphorical to me. Since there is one true path, I would like to know which path it is? I am searching for truth. Please help me in this regard. I would appreciate if you would explain these to me. I got even more confused about Ahmediat after reading these.

I only answered because you put a question to me.

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U know I have been on alot of online forums...but this is the weirdest one of them all...threads being deleted...pages being wiped out..(what ever happened to the 4th page)....moderators banning people??? but any ways..why r the simple curiosity questions labelled as allegations and why r the questions posted as anamosities...this is wrong!!! I am a MUSLIM, a PAKISTANI and most of all I am a CITIZEN of the world and so is every one else...we r all human beings!! This is what I think is the downfall of us, we have no tolerance for anything every 1 wants to preach about it but does'nt want to be the 1 to take the first step...I live with 2 christians..my best friend is a SIKH...my teachers r ATHIEST...we can not offend others with our words...HUQOOQ-UL-IBAAD is a huge part of our religion....

As far as the Ahmadies go there r things that r a little DIFFERENT from the main stream...I have started researching a little after reading all the postings...I can see where Sunni Muslims more so than any others can get a little resilient towards the writings of Mirza Sahib...

he has illuded to the fact that he is in-fact better than the Prophet Muhammad SAW....

*Any Hadith (of Holy Prophet PBUH) which is against My Revelation, I throw it away like a waste paper. (Roohani Khazain Vol 19 p. 140)

Holy Prophet Mohammed PBUH did not understand the meaning of Surah AlZilzal. (Roohani KhazainVol 3 p. 166)

For Him (PBUH) God showed only the sign of Lunar Eclipse, but for me He has shown both Solar and Lunar Eclipse ! Will you still refuse me ? (Roohani Khazain Vol 19 p. 71)

Revelation did not inform Holy Prophet Mohammed PBUH about Jesus son of Mary, Dajjal, Donkey of Dajjal, Gog and Magog, and Dabat-ul-ardh. (whereas Mirza's Revelation informed him ! (Roohani Khazain Vol 3 p.473)

The Miracle (of Holy Prophet Mohammed PBUH) of Dividing the Moon into Two was nothing but a form of Lunar Eclipse. (Roohani Khazain2 Malfoozat Vol 4 p.391)

Holy Prophet Mohammed PBUH did not go to Heavens on the Night of Ascension (Ma'iraj), it was just a Dream . (Roohani Khazain Mafoozat Vol 4 p.118)

Poetry (translation): (Recited in the presence of Mirza, who praised it and had it framed)
Mohammed has come down again amongst us
He is more glorious than before
He who wants to see a perfect Mohammed
He should see Ghulam Ahmad in Qadian.
(Akhbar Paigham us Sulh, Lahore dated 14th March 1916)

I am Adam, am Noah, I am Abraham, I am Isaac, I am Jacob, I am Ishmael, I am Moses, I am Jesus son of Mary, I am Mohammed PBUH... (Roohani Khazain Vol 22 p. 521)

Hadhrat Mohammed's PBUH revelation also turned out to be false. (Roohani Khazain Vol 3 p. 472)

Holy Prophet's Islam was like a New Moon and my Islam is like a Full Moon. (Roohani Khazain Vol 16 p. 184)

In the Inspiration " Muhammadur Rasoolullah, wallazeena ma'ahum..." I am addressed as Mohammed, the Prophet of Allah and God has addressed me as Mohammed, the Messenger of Allah. (Roohani Khazain Vol 18 p.216)

We do not need a New Kalima because the Promised Messiah (Mirza Qadiani) is not separate from Holy Prophet PBUH....Promised Messiah is Mohammed Rasoolullah himself, who has come again to this world to propagate Islam. (Mirza Basheer Ahmad son of Mirza Qadiani, Review of Religions, No. 3 Vol 14 p. 105)

All Prophets use to make Interpretational Mistakes, and every Prophet has shared such mistakes with me. Holy Prophet Mohammed PBUH has also made mistakes. (Roohani Khazain 2 Malfoozat Vol 2 p.224)

"But the fact is that the spirituality of Holy Prophet pbuh (in the form of Mirza Ghulam) in this end of the sixth millenium, that is in these days, is much more stronger and perfect and forceful as compared to those (first) years, like a full moon."
(Khutba-e-Ilhamiah, Roohani Khazain vol. 16 p.271)

"The spirituality of our holy Prophet (SAW) was conceived in 5th thousand (ie Makki birth) with its precise attributes and that period was not the the climax of his spirituality's development. It was rather the first step to the highest pinnacle of its perfection. Thereafter this spirituality manifested itself in its full glamour during the 6th thousand (his rebirth in Qadian) at the present time".
(Mirza in Khutba-e-llhamiyah, Roohani Khazain, Vol.16, p.266)

"And God chose such a DESPICABLE PLACE to bury the Holy Prophet (pbuh) which is EXTREMELY STINKING and DARK and CRAMPED and was the PLACE of the EXCRETA of INSECTS…"
(Roohani Khazain vol.17 p.205) *

There is one thing that really confused me about something u wrote...The fact that LAEEQ wrote "GOD makes mistakes, I am BETTER than Muhammad...etc" U were more keen on asking him about the matter involving the Prophet but the sentence, associating mistakes with ALLAH did not spike ur attnetion.....this is not even an Ahmadi issue. I think any believer of any religion would like for his DIVINE being in which he believes in to be free of all faults..don't u agree???

I hope the above references would be valuable to the inquirer....May Allah keep us in Harmony with each other Ameeen...

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To Mr LaeeqKhan and Perplexing.

It would be unfair to only present the excerpts from the writings of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian which only suites your needs without giving the full context.

You said that Mirza Sahib wrote:

First of all the translation is wrong. The exact text can be found on this link:

Ruhani Khazain Page 140

Please read the full text, go through it and tell me that whether He is talking in praise of the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) or against him!

More to follow! Inshallah

He is clearly saying that he tosses all those Ahadith asides that are not according to Holy Quran. Is this wrong to say?

  1. You wrote:

please read the actual text and then me where did the Promised Messiah wrote that the Holy Prophet didn’t understand the meaning of Surah AlZilzal. He was talking about the Ulemas of the later days not the Holy prophet.

Ruhani Khazain Vol3 Page 166-167

The next point you raised:

I couldn’t find the page, please read the books again and post the correct page number.

The next point you raisded:

The actual text can be seen on the following link:

Ruhani Khazain Vol3. Page 473

Please go through it and then tell me whether he is talking in praise of the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) and defending him or Naoozobillah against him.

More to follow Inshallah!

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Hello! I just read your post and i have the books so I will read from it...but the links you have posted do not work...upon clicking I was taken to a Yahoo page error message...it asked me to log in which I did and it said page not found!!!...but like i said I have the books Iwill read it and tell you what I think !!! thanks for replying.....

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I read the whole page at least three times..MGA Sahib said "Because of some MUSLIHAT Allah did not reveal to Prohet Muhamad about Jesus son of Mary, Dajjal, Donkey of Dajjal, Gog and Magog, and Dabat-ul-ardh.......and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT..THIS DOES NOT LESSON HIS PROPHETHOOD(status).....(this is what has been said in that page) where as He(MGA Sahib) has been revealed about them...apart from sugar coating the fact that its ok for Allah not to have revealed to him about these things....this claim in on the contrary....

Below are the Hadith-e- Qawwi in which it has been mentioned about Dajjal...

  • Hadhrat Imraan bin Husain (R.A.) relates that, "I heard Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) saying: "Since the birth of Adam (A.S.) till the advent of Qiyamah there is no fitnah (evil, test) much greater that of Dajjal."

Hadhrat Huzaifah (R.A.) says, Dajjal will be blind in his left eye. He will have very thick hair on his body and he will also have his own type of Jannat (Heaven) and Jahannam (Hell) with him: Although his Jannat will appear as Jannat, in reality it will be Jahannam and likewise though his Jahannam will appear to be Jahannam, in reality it will be Jannat.
(Hadith: Muslim)

Imraan bin Husain (R.A.) says Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said: "Those who hear about Dajjal should stay far from him. By Allah! A person will approach him thinking him to be a Believer, but on seeing his amazing feats he will become his follower."

Ubadah bin Saamit (R.A.) once said, "I have explained Dajjal to you but I fear that you might not have understood. Maseeh Dajjal will be short, and his legs will be crooked. The hair on his head will be extremely twisted. He will have one eye (with which he can see, and this is the protruding eye about which other ahadeeth inform us) while his other eye will be totally flat. It will neither be deep (in its socket) nor protruding. *

It even describes the way he looks in this Hatdith....where did this come from???? (even though these r Qawwi Hadith and alot of re-search has gone in them...there is still a a possibility that FatehAhmad Sahib will doubt its authencity) Sooo I will cite something from Quran about GOG-MAGOG.......
*
[18:93] When he reached the valley between two palisades, he found people whose language was barely understandable.
[18:94] They said, "O Zul-Qarnain, Gog and Magog are corruptors of the earth. Can we pay you to create a barrier between us and them?"
[18:95] He said, "My Lord has given me great bounties. If you cooperate with me, I will build a dam between you and them.
[18:96] "Bring to me masses of iron." Once he filled the gap between the two palisades, he said, "Blow." Once it was red hot, he said, "Help me pour tar on top of it."
[18:97] Thus, they could not climb it, nor could they bore holes in it.
[18:98] He said, "This is mercy from my Lord. When the prophecy of my Lord comes to pass, He will cause the dam to crumble. The prophecy of my Lord is truth."
[18:99] At that time, we will let them invade with one another, then the horn will be blown, and we will summon them all together
*

Do we believe that Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad?? if it was then this was revealed to him....more soo...The Promissed Messiah claims to be a REVIVAR/MUJADDID/PROPHET not adding or deleting anything to the religion..if that is sooo how can he claim to know something more then the Prophet Muhammad...the teachings of who have been made to last us till the day of Judgement....

to sum it all up...Allah says...

*This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your Religion. Quran (5:3) "
*

when something is perfected.....it might need some one to tell the masses that they have astrayed from the perfection...but what it does'nt need is some one to say this is revealed to me but it was'nt to the Prophet Muhammad......

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On page 140 vol. 19 Roohani Khazain...MGSA Sahib says.." The bases of my claims is the Quran not the Hadith..and I do cite Hadith that support my claims and r not contrary to Quran and the rest I throw them away like a waste of paper..." *and he goes on saying in the next sentence that " If the Hadith did not exist in this world...even then my claim would not have been effected..."* if any one thinks that this is praising the Prophet Muhammad then Allah have mercy on them.....

I just want to raise a question here....if there were'nt any Hadith in this world would MGA Sahib taught us how to say Azaan and pray....coz as far as I recall it came from the Hadith not Quran not MGA Sahib's revelation...

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Mr Perplexing

Thats a good thing you have the books. Now read Ruhani Khazain Page 473 again and you'll see that Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian is using the word 'Agar' (Urdu). What he was saying is that even if something was not revelealed to him totaly that will not in any way lessen that status of the prophethood of the Holy Propyet (Peace be upon him). Important thing to remember is the word 'Agar'.

And later on in the same page, he wrote that it is very evident from the Hadith and Quran that the Holy prophet (Peace be upon him) fully understands who would be the coming Messiah.

Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian fully believed on all the Ahadith that are not contrary to Quran. He never said anywhere in his writings that he didn't believe in Ahadith. Is it wrong not to believe on those Ahadith that contrary to Quran? I don't think so! Holy Quran is the ultimate source of knowledge and any Hadith going against the teachings of Quran should be discarded.

And where did the Promised Messiah made the claim that he know more than the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)?

Thats what the Promised Messiah has to say about the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him):

What was this, do you know? This most wonderful thing which happened in the wilderness of Arabia? Spiritually dead millions became alive again in a matter of days; those without eyes began to see, those without speech began to speak the language of seers gifted with divine knowledge. This was a revolution which no eye had seen before nor had an ear heard of it before.
What was it, do you know? It was a miracle performed by the mighty prayers of a man who had dedicated his life to God. Prayers offered in the dead of night. These prayers shook the world. They wrought changes impossible for an unlettered person to bring about.

God! shower Thy blessings and send peace on this man! Bless not only him but also those who come after him and follow him! Remove their fears, their sorrows, their anxieties. And on this his Umma, shower Thy Bounties and Thy Blessings until the end of days.

(Barkat-al Dua pg. 10-11)

May Allah allow us to seek Hidayat! Ameen

Waalaikum Us Salam

97

Mr Fateh Ahmed,

I have been reading your discussion with laeeqkhan and perplexed and found it very ineteresting!

As a fourth person I observe that you have not been able to answer about baghaya. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian has himself explained the meaning of baghaya, i.e. prostitute. This is shown in the picture from the book in one of the posts. You were trying to give its meanings otherwise. So this is a contradiction in Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian's writings, since he himself says that he never uses abusive language just as it does not suit a masiah to do so.
[thumb=B]5rk547.JPG[/thumb]
This is very confusing can u explain this? Even if it is than do let me know if this is the way a masiah should speak. Is this the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw)?, Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the best example to follow as Quran has told us.

May Allah allow us to seek Hidayat! Ameen

Waalaikum Us Salam

98

Mister FatehAhmad sahib....u keep repeating the same thing over and over....NO!!!....it is not wrong to throw away something that is contrary to the Quran but the sentence does not end there it says how there was no need of Hadith....every writer has a style of writing..and u can not take out one thing like the word AGAR and say this is what he means... if u read the last whole paragraph he is talking about why was the interpretation of Muhammad different from his....then he illudes to the fact AGAR different hai to it does'nt effect his status...meaning that he can have the same status and still not be informed about those things secondly....if we go with your interpretation of AGAR...why was there a need to conjure this HYPOTHETICAL scenario???

FatehSahib there are numerous other examples where things r said by HIM(MGA Sahib)...I don't think if I see your point or vice versa will make any one of us change the way we believe....more so it will confuse the readers more about this..since the URDU used in the books is very literary in nature.....so I think with ur permission(ufcourse) we should move on to the next point!!!

99

I am really confused!!! I never heard such things before. Are they really in the book Roohani Khazain.

100

zurrayatul baghaya

For Mr Islamabad:

To further explain it lets take examples of following verses of Holy Quran where Allah says that :

"The worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense." (Holy Quran 8:22)

At another place Allah says that "Those who were blind in this world will be blind in the Hereafter and most astray from the Path" (Holy Quran 17:72)

(Note: Translation of above verses taken from Non-Ahmadi source)

Can those who overemphasize on literal meanings of "zurrayatul baghaya" also take the words "Blind, Dumb and Deaf" expressed in the verses of Holy Quran quoted above as LITERAL?????

Certainly not !!! Then why they overemphasize on Literal Meaning of the words "zurrayatul baghaya"??? Actually they are the people with double standards. And they use their double standards in most evil manners in order to misguide the Servants of Allah (God).

Keeping above background in view lets examine the under discussion quote of Promised Messiah (A.S). Promised Messiah had written :

"Every Muslim will accept me and will confirm my claim except the zurrayatul baghaya whose hearts will have been sealed up by God Almighty." (Aina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam, Roohani Khazain vol.5 p.547)

According to Promised Messiah (A.S) those whose hearts are sealed by God will not accept him. Here one must note that :

Sealing of heart by God is always used in metaphorical and spiritual sense. (Examples are available in Holy Quran as well). Thus the Promised Messiah (A.S) had made the meaning of "zurrayatul baghaya" very clear by explaining the spiritual state of nonbelievers rather than speaking about their materialistic /physical background.

By simple logic whose hearts are sealed by God could only be those whose spiritual birth and up-bringing is filthy i.e. those who are evil by nature. In spiritual matters it does not make difference that from whose progeny one belong to. Holy Quran clearly explains this phenomenon by giving the example of the Son of Prophet Noah (A.S). God tells us that despite being the progeny of Prophet, his heart was sealed by God, due to his evil nature, and so he did not follow the right path.

In addition to above according to one of the most well known lexicon, Tajul Urus, the term "zurrayatul baghaya" is also used for a person who is deprived of guidance. The "Tajul Urus" clearly states that to call a person "zurrayatul baghaya" means that he is deprived of guidance.

The example of the opponents of Promised Messiah (A.S), who are day and night busy in uttering filth and falsehood against him, is best described in Holy Quran as : "His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him he lolls out his tongue or if you leave him alone he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject our signs; so relate the story; perchance they may reflect." (Holy Quran 7:176).

You can see how Quran is talking metaphoricaly about a person calling him a dog. So now somebody should go ahead and start objecting on Quran saying that it is Allah's kalaam and Allah shouldn't talk like that! Its all metaphorical! Got it or still have to take everything in literal sence!