A question to Ahmedis!

Let me quote a hadith..

‘My servant who offers optional prayers constantly increases in grade of nearness to me so much so that I also begin to love him. Then I become his ears with which he hears and his eyes with which he sees and his hands with which he holds things and his feet with which he walks.’(Bukhari)
So God the most Exalted,becomes the feet of a believer.. how can you believe that.. thats blashemy!! (according to your logic)..
Will you let some one step on your face.. no.. Would you point your feet in the direction of Kaaba.. No.. and here Prophet :saw: is saying that God becomes the hands and ears and eyes and feet of a believer!!!

These are the words of those who know the status of God.. who know where they stand.. who understand these things.. take them literally if you like..

*"God, in the Holy Quran, has declared worshipping Jesus a great act of mischief. It is also foretold that the plague and earth-quakes, etc. will occur when worshipping of Jesus becomes rampant. God has clarified that in the last era, all the horrible incidents on the sky and earth will appear because worshipping of Jesus."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 22, P. 498-499; Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, P. 64)

"Naturally, the prophecies of the Holy Quran and Hadith, in which it was revealed that the Promised Messiah will be prosecuted by the Muslim scholars, must come to pass. They will declare him an unbeliever."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol.17, P. 404; Arbaine, No. 3, P. 25)

"If one has to refer to a Hadith, more importance should be placed on those Hadiths that are more authentic. For example the Hadiths of Bukhari Sharif which foretell of some caliphs of the last era; particularly, the caliph about whom Bukhari narrates a voice for his ratification will be heard from the sky stating: 'This is Mehdi, the caliph of Allah'. Now, think how accurate this Hadith is, since it appears in a book most accurate, after the Holy Quran."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 6, P. 337; Shahadat-ul-Quran)
*

(Note even Mirza Sahib himself credits Bukhari as a credible book, but obviously rejects the Hadith about Muhammad SAW's Finalty)

The above mentioned excripts were found in the writings of Mirza Sahib can you please identify the location of the veses and Hadith for me....???

P.S Can you please also tell me when he was born (The Promised Messiah)?

Mr. Destino can u please give me the reference to this Hadith…(what book and whats the number)?

Mr. Perplexing,

Bukhari reference: Volume 8, Book 76, Number 509

such a long debate and still ppl dint conclude that mirza ahmed qadyani was a liar :eek:

it will come soon… dont worry…

Yes, sometimes there are versions of Qadiani quran without additions, but there the translation is wrong! They should put on the cover that it’s a Qadiani/Ahmadi whatever quran so people know what they have.

I suggest you read the third page of the thread “Jesus died a natural death-part 1” , somewhere in the first part there is a post of an example of an addition by Mirza in the quran.

Sadya,
I can't still understand what do you mean by "additions" in Quran.. Is it addition in actual text??? If yes, show me the example..

I can show you Promised Massiah's (as) words :

Even a dot of the Holy Quran does not run the risk of any damage or alteration at the hands of collective assault of the ancestors and successors. It is such a strong, secure and solid stone that its strike will split apart and any one who strikes against it, will be annihilated.

(Aina Kamalat-e-Islam Roohani Khazain Vol. 5, pg. 257 fn.)

"The fact is that except the Quran there is no book at present on the face of the earth, believed to be revealed, which considers God to possess all the perfect attributes and to be free from every shortcoming and defect." (Chashma Ma'rifa, pp. 107-108)

"Don't leave the Quran neglected because your very life lies in it. ... Read the Quran with understanding, and love it very greatly. Love it as you have not loved anything else because God has informed me that all types of good is in the Quran. Pity be on those people who give precedence to something else over it. The source of all your success and salvation lies in the Quran. There is no spiritual need of yours which is not provided in the Quran. ... God has done you an immense favour by giving you a book like the Quran, ... so value the blessing given to you." (Kishti-i Nuh)

"Know that the clear miracle of the Holy Quran which can be displayed to a person of any nation, speaking any language, and by which we can silence a man of any country, whether he is an Indian, Persian, European, American, or of any other country, is that the knowledge and the truths contained in the Quran are unlimited, and are disclosed in every age according to the needs of that age. They stand like armed soldiers to combat the philosophies of every age. If the Holy Quran had been a limited thing in terms of the truths contained in it, it could not possibly be a perfect miracle. Eloquence of language by itself is not a quality whose miraculous nature can be appreciated by everyone, whether learned or uneducated. ...
"Whatever doubts arise in any new age, with the new conditions in it, and whatever excellent knowledge any new age may claim to have discovered, the Holy Quran contains a complete refutation and criticism of it and can compete with it fully. No person of any religion or follower of any philosophy can show a spiritual truth which is not contained in the Quran. The wonders of the Holy Quran can never come to an end, just as the wonders of nature did not come to an end in some previous age, but ever newer ones are constantly appearing. The same is true of this holy scripture." (Izala Auham, pp. 305-311)

Now you bring the proof, if you have any.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
Sadya,
I can't still understand what do you mean by "additions" in Quran.. Is it addition in actual text??? If yes, show me the example..

I can show you Promised Massiah's (as) words :

Even a dot of the Holy Quran does not run the risk of any damage or alteration at the hands of collective assault of the ancestors and successors. It is such a strong, secure and solid stone that its strike will split apart and any one who strikes against it, will be annihilated.

(Aina Kamalat-e-Islam Roohani Khazain Vol. 5, pg. 257 fn.)

"The fact is that except the Quran there is no book at present on the face of the earth, believed to be revealed, which considers God to possess all the perfect attributes and to be free from every shortcoming and defect." (Chashma Ma'rifa, pp. 107-108)

"Don't leave the Quran neglected because your very life lies in it. ... Read the Quran with understanding, and love it very greatly. Love it as you have not loved anything else because God has informed me that all types of good is in the Quran. Pity be on those people who give precedence to something else over it. The source of all your success and salvation lies in the Quran. There is no spiritual need of yours which is not provided in the Quran. ... God has done you an immense favour by giving you a book like the Quran, ... so value the blessing given to you." (Kishti-i Nuh)

"Know that the clear miracle of the Holy Quran which can be displayed to a person of any nation, speaking any language, and by which we can silence a man of any country, whether he is an Indian, Persian, European, American, or of any other country, is that the knowledge and the truths contained in the Quran are unlimited, and are disclosed in every age according to the needs of that age. They stand like armed soldiers to combat the philosophies of every age. If the Holy Quran had been a limited thing in terms of the truths contained in it, it could not possibly be a perfect miracle. Eloquence of language by itself is not a quality whose miraculous nature can be appreciated by everyone, whether learned or uneducated. ...
"Whatever doubts arise in any new age, with the new conditions in it, and whatever excellent knowledge any new age may claim to have discovered, the Holy Quran contains a complete refutation and criticism of it and can compete with it fully. No person of any religion or follower of any philosophy can show a spiritual truth which is not contained in the Quran. The wonders of the Holy Quran can never come to an end, just as the wonders of nature did not come to an end in some previous age, but ever newer ones are constantly appearing. The same is true of this holy scripture." (Izala Auham, pp. 305-311)

Now you bring the proof, if you have any.
[/QUOTE]

Like I said before, I already gave an example in the thread "Jesus died a natural death-part 1" . Can you proove that wrong?

To Sadya:

We are talking about your allegation that 'Qadianis have their own Quran' and you have failed miserably to prove that!

Having a different translation which you may not like doesn't mean that somebody's Quran is different than yours. There are more than 72 sects of Islam and their hundreds of translations of Holy Quran which also differ from each but that doesn't mean that the Quran itself is different.

Do you have the courage to say that you are wrong in this case? and move forward!

To Sadya:

The discussion about the 'Natural death of Jesus' should be discussed in that thread. Don't drag it over here!

[QUOTE]
I quote from a booklet called "Final rejoinder to Mirza Tahir" written by Muhammad Yusuf Ludhianvi:

A Qadinai must mould Quran and Hadith to his own will and wish. In your Qadiani Quran, new "aya" were added by the arch-liar, Mirza Qadiani e.g.

ienna anzalnahoe kareeba mmienal qadiaan.

Tazkirah p. 74

Mirza's another flabbergasting addition in the Holy Quran was

shaatan tazabihan

to precede and rhyme with

fabie ayyi allaa ie rabbie koema takaziebaan

in Surah "Ar Rahmaan" .

What a rustic homily from Mirza to confuse and averawe his followers! This ambigious addition (meaning two goats will be slaughtered) with the Quranic Ayat gives the impresssion as if this too is an aya of Surah Ar Rahmaan which is tantamount to ridiculing the Holy Quran.
[/QUOTE]

And in the reply we asked you to go through the Holy Quran on the Ahmadiyya website and found the verses and surahs that were added by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian! You failed to do so!

The book 'Tazkirah', Maulana Sahib is using to attack the Promised Messiah is a collection of the Revelations and Dreams of the Promised Messiah. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian never believed it to be the part of Holy Quran and Ahmadis also doesn't believe it to be the part of Holy Quran.

Allah has already made a promise to all the Muslims that Allah itself will protect the Quran from any chage! So don't worry about that! Allah will take care of that matter.

To Sadya:

In the thread about the 'Natural death of Jesus', you mentioned about the Mubahala between the Promised Messiah and Molvi Abdul Haq Ghaznavi.

There are a few very important points to keep in mind:

a. First of all, according to the beliefs of pious saints of Muslim Ummah,
Almighty Allah Does make a clear distinction between a liar and the
truthful within one year after the mubahala. Hazrat Promised Messiah
held to this belief also. [Roohani Khazain, vol.9, p. 34]

b. The above mentioned Mubahala was held in the year 1893.

c. As mentioned above, NOWHERE IN MUBAHALA, the death of anybody before the other's was mentioned. Please bring the proof if it was.

d. The above quoted text (para. 3) from Malfuzat, Vol 9, p440 was an answer to a question, about Meslemah, put to Hazrat Promised Messiah (AS) in 1907. Almost 14 years after the Mubahala with Ghaznavi!

The question was that Meslemah was a liar; but he did not die during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet (PBOH). Why?

In response to this question and to defend an attack on the truthfulness of the Holy Prophet (PBOH), Hazrat Promised Messiah replied that Meslemah Kazzab did not enter into a Mubahala with the Holy Prophet (PBOH). Had he entered into Mubahala, which had called for the death of the liar during the lifetime of the truthful, he must have died during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet; but he never entered into such a Mubahala.

e. Now, a fair mind can see that there is no relation between the two
quotations to each other whatsoever.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani died during the lifetime of
Maulana Abdul Haq Ghaznavi on May 26, 1908, Whereas Maulana Sahib (Allah's mercy upon him) expired after 9 years, on May 16, 1917.
(Rais-e-Qadian, Vol. 2, p. 192)

In the Mubahala of 1893, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad DID NOT PRAY for the death of Abdul Haq Ghaznavi. Hazrat Ahmad did not even invoke the curse of Allah on Abdul Haq in that Mubahala for Hazrat Ahmad had a pity on Abdul Haq because of his ignorance. [Roohani Khazain, Vol. 11, p 305]

On the contrary, Hazrat Promised Messiah latter prophesied:

"Abdul Haq WILL NOT DIE unless he himself witnesses the birth of my 4th son also." (Roohani Khazaine, Vol 11, page 317)

Abdul Haq's death, 9 years after the death of Hazrat Promised Messiah (AS) is a living sign of Almighty Allah in support of His beloved Messiah. Abdul Haq Ghaznavi not only witnessed the Blessings of Allah but witnessed his own decline, shame and humiliation.

The Curse of Allah fell upon Abdul Haq within one year many times.

His brother died within that year. Abdul Haq married his brother's widow
and called it a blessing. Hazrat Promised Messiah pointed out that marrying an old woman who had lost her youth and charm could not be construed as a blessing at all; instead the death of his brother was something to ponder upon! [Roohani Khazain, vol 11, p310]

Then Abdul Haq bragged that he will have a son. Where is that son of him?Does anybody know his name? [Roohani Khazain, vol 11, p310]

In response to that, Hazrat Promised Messiah prophesied that he would beblessed with a son. Within a year time, a son was born to the Promised Messiahwhose name was Shareef Ahmad. Then Hazrat Promised Messiah prophesied again,
"ABDUL HAQ WILL NOT DIE UNLESS HE WITNESSES THE BIRTH OF MY FOURTH SON".
Abdul Haq lived to see the birth of fourth son of the Promised Messiah,
whose name was Mubarak Ahmad. [Roohani Khazain, vol 11, p310]

The world, and the wicked Mullahs witnessed the immediate results of the Mubahala on the same day, right there in the Eidgah ground also.
Muhammad Hussain Batalvi, an outspoken opponent of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, was also challenged by the Promised Messiah to come for Mubahala along-with Abdul Haq; but he did not dare to come face to face with Hazrat Promised Messiah (AS) for Mubahala; exactly as it was foretold by Allah to the Promised Messiah, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and he had advertised.

People had to literally drag Ghaznavi to come forward and invoke the Mubahala. He did not utter a word regarding the curse of Allah on the liar; instead he,as usual, used filthy language to address the Promised Messiah (AS) and did not invoke the curse upon himself if he was a liar.

IT IS SIGNIFICANT THAT DURING THE MUBAHALA, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the promised Messiah never invoked any evil to befall on Abdul Haq Ghaznavi. INSTEAD He Prayed that as his opponents regarded him as a LIAR, An IMPOSTER and an INFIDEL, If He was really so, GOD should CURSE him in an "UNPRECEDENTED MANNER".

After the Mubahala prayer Moulvi Mohammad Yaqoob and Hafiz Mohammad Yusuf, who were respected very much by the Ghaznavi family, openly declared before a large number of people that Moulvi Abdullah Ghaznavi (father of Abdul Haq Ghaznavi) had had a vision in which he had seen the light of God descend upon Qadian, of which his children were deprived. This public declaration of two witnesses was the immediate blow which Abdul Haq received as a result of the Mubahala.
[Life of Ahmad, p 278]

Abdul Haq prophesied that he will have a son, but did not beget one, and
thus was frustrated and disgraced. The Promised Messiah prophesied that God will give him a son. He was blessed with a son whose name was Shareef Ahmad. He also prophesied that Abdul Haq WILL NOT DIE UNLESS he witnesses the birth of Hazrat Ahmad's 4th son as a sign of Allah. He was blessed with a 4th son named Mubarak Ahmad.

I have found the Hadith that you have referred to Mister Destino as follows at the following website.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/076.sbt.html
*

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 509:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Allah said, 'I will declare war against him who shows hostility to a pious worshipper of Mine. And the most beloved things with which My slave comes nearer to Me, is what I have enjoined upon him; and My slave keeps on coming closer to Me through performing Nawafil (praying or doing extra deeds besides what is obligatory) till I love him, so I become his sense of hearing with which he hears, and his sense of sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he grips, and his leg with which he walks; and if he asks Me, I will give him, and if he asks My protection (Refuge), I will protect him; (i.e. give him My Refuge) and I do not hesitate to do anything as I hesitate to take the soul of the believer, for he hates death, and I hate to disappoint him.”
*

The following website was used by Mister fateh Ahmad to quote a Bukhari hadith. It has the same hadith…

http://www.quraan.com/Bukhari/76.asp

The word used in both places is Leg not Feet…
Secondly if u look at the meaning of the hadith it means that Allah will make everything the person does…sacred (if he hears,sees or walks)…
As for some one stepping on my face…mister Destino..have u ever seen a mother kissing her new born child’s feet…??? The concept of feet pointing at some one is just a concept of Asia…this is not practiced any where else…its not the feet it self, that make them not wanted to be touched its where they have been… But in the case of a Thief, the very essence of the word is BAD…there r no good thieves and the fact that Mirza Sahib is associating Thief with Allah, it could have been said by using some other analogy…Its the same Allah that gave Wahi to Prophet SAW then why did the examples change sooo much..??? why does’nt the quran have something like this..???..but any ways…if u still do not see anything wrong with this then, like I said lets move forward…

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Perplexing: *
*"God, in the Holy Quran, has declared worshipping Jesus a great act of mischief. It is also foretold that the plague and earth-quakes, etc. will occur when worshipping of Jesus becomes rampant. God has clarified that in the last era, all the horrible incidents on the sky and earth will appear because worshipping of Jesus."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 22, P. 498-499; Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, P. 64)

"Naturally, the prophecies of the Holy Quran and Hadith, in which it was revealed that the Promised Messiah will be prosecuted by the Muslim scholars, must come to pass. They will declare him an unbeliever."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol.17, P. 404; Arbaine, No. 3, P. 25)

"If one has to refer to a Hadith, more importance should be placed on those Hadiths that are more authentic. For example the Hadiths of Bukhari Sharif which foretell of some caliphs of the last era; particularly, the caliph about whom Bukhari narrates a voice for his ratification will be heard from the sky stating: 'This is Mehdi, the caliph of Allah'. Now, think how accurate this Hadith is, since it appears in a book most accurate, after the Holy Quran."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 6, P. 337; Shahadat-ul-Quran)
*

(Note even Mirza Sahib himself credits Bukhari as a credible book, but obviously rejects the Hadith about Muhammad SAW's Finalty)

The above mentioned excripts were found in the writings of Mirza Sahib can you please identify the location of the veses and Hadith for me....???

P.S Can you please also tell me when he was born (The Promised Messiah)?
[/QUOTE]

I asked you couple of questions in this post Mister fateh Ahmad.....

Mr. Perplexing.

The Promised Messiah was born in Qadian dated 1835.

And about the thing about 'Thief', you are just playing with words. Please read the whole paragraph and then tell me that do you think that Promised Messiah was in any way naozobillah disgracing Allah. And I have already explained it to you that these words are not of Promised Messiah. He wrote that 'Allah says that he will come like a thief' meaning that no one else would know or no one else would be given information except the Messiah Maood.

I have already told you that there is nothing objectionable in it. And it seems that even in the books where Promised Messiah is praising Allah or the Holy Prophet or explaining his love for Allah or Holy Prophet, you would surely try to find a fault in it.

May Allah open your eyes and also give all of us the Hidayat.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. Perplexing.

The Promised Messiah was born in Qadian dated 1835.

And about the thing about 'Thief', you are just playing with words. Please read the whole paragraph and then tell me that do you think that Promised Messiah was in any way naozobillah disgracing Allah. And I have already explained it to you that these words are not of Promised Messiah. He wrote that 'Allah says that he will come like a thief' meaning that no one else would know or no one else would be given information except the Messiah Maood.

I have already told you that there is nothing objectionable in it. And it seems that even in the books where Promised Messiah is praising Allah or the Holy Prophet or explaining his love for Allah or Holy Prophet, you would surely try to find a fault in it.

May Allah open your eyes and also give all of us the Hidayat.
[/QUOTE]

Mr Fateh Ahmed Sahib!

I am truly amazed at your way of thinking! You cannot even see in the blind love of your so called messiah that he is using the word thief for even giving an example of Allah??!!!

The most beautiful of the examples are given about Allah himself in the Quran. What was missing in the Quran that he went ahead and gave such examples which examplify Allah as a thief?????!!!! You are telling us all to read the whole paragraph. What to talk of the whole thing when this small thing itself is so grave! Giving an example of Allah in such a way????

Please open your eyes. May Allah give Hidayah, for surely He guides whom He wills!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Perplexing: *
*"God, in the Holy Quran, has declared worshipping Jesus a great act of mischief. It is also foretold that the plague and earth-quakes, etc. will occur when worshipping of Jesus becomes rampant. God has clarified that in the last era, all the horrible incidents on the sky and earth will appear because worshipping of Jesus."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 22, P. 498-499; Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, P. 64)

"Naturally, the prophecies of the Holy Quran and Hadith, in which it was revealed that the Promised Messiah will be prosecuted by the Muslim scholars, must come to pass. They will declare him an unbeliever."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol.17, P. 404; Arbaine, No. 3, P. 25)

"If one has to refer to a Hadith, more importance should be placed on those Hadiths that are more authentic. For example the Hadiths of Bukhari Sharif which foretell of some caliphs of the last era; particularly, the caliph about whom Bukhari narrates a voice for his ratification will be heard from the sky stating: 'This is Mehdi, the caliph of Allah'. Now, think how accurate this Hadith is, since it appears in a book most accurate, after the Holy Quran."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 6, P. 337; Shahadat-ul-Quran)
*

(Note even Mirza Sahib himself credits Bukhari as a credible book, but obviously rejects the Hadith about Muhammad SAW's Finalty)

The above mentioned excripts were found in the writings of Mirza Sahib can you please identify the location of the veses and Hadith for me....???

P.S Can you please also tell me when he was born (The Promised Messiah)?
[/QUOTE]

** Mister Fateh Ahmad I said in my previous post that if you do not find anything wrong with the example of the THIEF then we should move forward. I have asked you some questions about the references that were made by Mirza Sahib to the Quran and Hadith along with his date of birth,can you please kindly Identify those as well.........and thanx for identifying the date of birth of Mirza Sahib....**

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
To Sadya:

We are talking about your allegation that 'Qadianis have their own Quran' and you have failed miserably to prove that!

Having a different translation which you may not like doesn't mean that somebody's Quran is different than yours. There are more than 72 sects of Islam and their hundreds of translations of Holy Quran which also differ from each but that doesn't mean that the Quran itself is different.

Do you have the courage to say that you are wrong in this case? and move forward!
[/QUOTE]

Yes, if I'm convinced that I'm wrong, then yes, I would admit that.
But in this particular case, I'm not. Here in Holland, some years ago, there was indeed a version of an Ahmadi Quran, where there were actual changes in the text, there was an oproar about that here. And later the Qadyani group here, had to take that version with actual changes in it out of publication and out of shops. I wish my Dad had saved a copy. I"m looking now for one. If I do find one, I shall give you the ISBN number so you can check it yourself, if anyone still has one at home, because since it's taken out of publication, you won't find it in shops anymore. Through the years, there have been many attemps by Qadiani groups to publish Qurans with actual additions in it. LIke the example given already by Maulana Muhammad Yusuf Ludhianvi.
You still haven't prooved him wrong by the way.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *

And in the reply we asked you to go through the Holy Quran on the Ahmadiyya website and found the verses and surahs that were added by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian! You failed to do so!

The book 'Tazkirah', Maulana Sahib is using to attack the Promised Messiah is a collection of the Revelations and Dreams of the Promised Messiah. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian never believed it to be the part of Holy Quran and Ahmadis also doesn't believe it to be the part of Holy Quran.

Allah has already made a promise to all the Muslims that Allah itself will protect the Quran from any chage! So don't worry about that! Allah will take care of that matter.
[/QUOTE]

So Maulana Ludhianvi has made that part up? about the addition by Mirza in Sura "Ar Rahman" : shataan tazaabihaan, to precede and rhyme with : fabi ayyi allaa ie rabbie koema takazieban.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
To Sadya:

The discussion about the 'Natural death of Jesus' should be discussed in that thread. Don't drag it over here!
[/QUOTE]

who's discussing Jesus (pbuh) here? I'm only referring to a post in that thread that matches this topic. you should carefully read the posts!