A question to Ahmadies: what do u say about this....

Degas

*>>>>I appreciate ur concern about hate sites.. but Ahmadia official site just touches basics and tell mostly things Mirza wrote that were not controvercial.. The problem with readers like me is that Mirza works are very confusing.. he writes one thing here and refutes it outrightly at another place.. *

It seems you haven’t visited the Ahmadiyya website recently. They have made it so huge that it will take you months to go through it all. One can complain about over whelming information but cannot say that there is not enough information online. The new theme is to get everything in Audio format, so even the books which have already been converted into PDF & can be downloaded are now converted to Audio format. It’s a huge task but with dedicated volunteers, InshAllah in a few years time you will be able to find everything Online.

Your confusion is understandable if it is well intended. Though the root of the confusion is no different than when someone objects that at one place Quran says kill the kafir while at other places gives the message of utter compassion. It’s not contradictory but in context of the subject, perfect! Reading a verse from first chapter & then the last will obviously not make sense. Similarly, how can you expect that by reading a few quotes here & there you can understand everything about Ahmadiyyat and the claims of Mirza Sahib (as)?

>>>>>I am still puzzled why he cjalleged his opponents all the time with death time periods.. that some one will die before him.. I found this at so many of his writings..

These challenges are called Mubahilah, which is a traditions of the prophets & is also explained in Quran. AnHazoor (saw) also challenged the leaders of some tribes in Madina to which they declined. You should also note that Mirza Sahib’s challenge to Mubahilah was not from the start, instead in the beginning when he claimed to be appointed by Allah, people challenged him for a prayer-dual but instead he would ask them to come have a public debate (Mubahisa). He insisted that he cannot do Mubahilah as Allah SWT has not directed him to do as such. Eventually after receiving revelations regarding Mubahilah, he first challenged those who apposed Islam bitterly, starting from prominent non-Muslims.

For example, if you read Ahmadiyya history you will know that he had one such Mubahilah with Lekh Ram, a Hindu pundit & well known leader of his community Arya Samaj, who was not only bitterly against Islam but used the most profane language for the Holy Prophet (saw). Mirza Sahib repeatedly for years answered his objections and held public debates refuting his allegations against Islam & Holy Prophet. Then after years of in vain struggle he prayed to Allah, for which he was told that Lekh Ram’s end is near. After learning this from Allah, Mirza Sahib (as) prophesized that either he (Lekh Ram) stop abusing Islam & the Holy Prophet or else he is bound to die within six months. In the challenge Mirza Sahib asked Lekh Ram to pray to his gods to save him, if he thinks he is at truth aganist Islam. Lekh Ram didn’t listen & went on with his anti-Islam campaign & as prophesized in the revelations of Mirza Sahib, died within those 6 months!

So u want to say everything Mirza said made sense and what sunnis believe doesnt? Sunnis mostly believe in following Muhammad (PBUH) where as Ahmadis Mirza.. From ur posts u seem to agree all points ahmadis make.. so what is ur opinion of Muhammad (PBUH) and Mirza?

Request for the AHMEDIS…
If you are involved in some conspiracy with the Israelis, then PLEASE, have them commit one of their pattented premptive assasinations in Pakistan. I would love to see that happen to good number of our terrorists. Maybe you could get Mosad after some of these guppies…
You would be doing a great service to your country. Jinnah would be proud:)
Thank you:k:

ahmadjee

Can u give some examples of Muhammad (PBUH) where he prayed for someones death.. u gave example of Mirza but not any from Muhammad (PBUH) ..

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Degas: *
So u want to say everything Mirza said made sense and what sunnis believe doesnt? Sunnis mostly believe in following Muhammad (PBUH) where as Ahmadis Mirza.. From ur posts u seem to agree all points ahmadis make.. so what is ur opinion of Muhammad (PBUH) and Mirza?
[/QUOTE]

But Ahmadi beliefs make more sense in genral, not saying Sunni beliefs are wrong in and of themselves, but like I said, Ahmadis conform more with Science, or atleast they try to... So to me they seem more progressive. Im not saying everything that Mirza said made sense, but I cant say that Islam makes sense either. A christian would have a hard time understanding how a Muslim can believe in Islam because it makes no sense sometimes. I can make a list of all the things that dont make sense in Islam, but what would be the point?
I have nothing against Islam, i have a problem with Sunni people in general, they way they seem to think they own the religion, and the way they are always the first to deem other as "Kafir." No one gave them that right. Just read some of the posts by some of your fellow Sunnis here... If they have nothing to say, they will insult. I was raised to respect peoples belief, but it bothers me when someone insults someone elses religion, something that is so dear to us all.
I also dont like your Molvis, Every Mosque I have been to, the Khutba eventually turn to politics, and who is a Kafir and who isnt... I HAVE been to ahmadi khutbas, and agree with them or not, they avoid political topics and stick to Islam and such.

By the way, can you tell me one thing Practical in Sunni Islam?

Degas,

The permission of such prayer-duals was given to the Holy Prophet :saw: in the following verses of Quran.
3: 62/63. Now whoso disputes with thee concerning him, after what has come to thee of Knowledge, say to him `Come, let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and our people and your people; then let us pray fervently and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie.
Here is clip of the footnote that further explains this verse and also answers your question.

[thumb=C]mubah.JPG[/thumb]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PaKpatriot1: *
By the way, can you tell me one thing Practical in Sunni Islam?
[/QUOTE]

Dunno what u want to say.. just look around in muslims countries like Malaysia, indonesia and others.. looks how sunni muslims are living in greatest family traditions according to sunnah of Prophet (PBUH). What else one need?

May be namaz, roza, hajj and zakat are practical things we do.. which turn a human being into a great member of society. Dunno if ur atheist what to belive in - are u a better ape than ur forefathers if u dont believe in God and creation of universe?

I see nothing in Malaysia, just another Muslim filled country…
America and Europe are just as impressive, if not more so.
I have seen Christians, Jews and Ahemdis all living in great family traditions.. Some CHRISTIAN FAMILIES i HAVE MER ARE NICER THEN ANY MUSLIM FAMILY.. Let me tell you, In some parts of America, You can leave your car door and you house door wide open without any fear… In a so called Muslim country in Pakistan, you have to have huge walls surrounding your house, armed guards in some places… People get their cars stolen while they are still in the car…
They Sunnis you claim to be so pious are just as intolerant as anyone else. I have had Hindu friends who were treated so disrepectfuly by such SUNNAH FOLLOWING FAMILIES.
tHE naamaz, roza, hajj and zakat are also practiced by Ahmedis, infact I have relatives who are Ahmedis and they pray five times a day, give zakat regularly, keep roza like their life depended on it, and have gone on hajj many times… so those things dont count.
as for my ape ancestors, they were also your ancestor…
And believe me or not, Evoltution makes way more sense then Islam ever did… Ask me anything concernign creation and I will explain it through evolution and science…:slight_smile: Thats a challenge:k:

Hello! Ahmadjee.. First of all thank you for your enlightening post. I appreciate your concern and point has been taken. But I think you are failing to understand something. I did not post the quotes for some one to challenge me or prove me wrong, the original quote was posted by me in respose to Mr. Ouija’s post…

1. I was trying to point out that even Mirza Sahib said if some one believes that there will be a Prophet after SAW then that person was out side the fold of Islam. (The nature of the Prophethood has no relevance here). I was merely giving a definition of some one that would be outside the pale of Islam according to Mirza Sahib other than what was provided by Mr. Ouija.

2. The quote provided by me is not incorrect. It was taken out of an older version of Roohani Khazain. The newer version that me and you have has the remaining part of the text on the next page,p 297 of v 17, 4th line from the top. I am uploading the image below…
[thumb=C]quote.JPG[/thumb]

3. There was a time when Mirza Sahib did not claim Prophethood. He claimed to be a Prophet in 1901. This phenomenon is explained as Gradual revealment on the Ahmadi website. So the quotes that were written before 1901 deny being a Prophet all-together. Look at the following one…
*
“I am not a prophet but a muhaddas from God, and a recipient of Divine revelation so that I may re-vitalise the religion of the Holy Prophet, and He has raised me at the head of the century.”
— ibid., p. 383; Roohani Khazain vol 5: 383

“I firmly believe that our Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is the Khatam al-anbiya, and after him no prophet shall come for this nation (umma), neither new nor old … Of course, muhaddases will come who will be spoken to by God, and possess some attributes of full prophethood by way of zill (reflection), and in some ways be coloured with the colour of prophethood. I am one of these.”
— Nishan Asmani, 1892, p. 28; Roohani Khazain vol 4: 390-391

… by ‘messengers’ are meant those who are sent, whether such a one is an apostle (rasul), prophet (nabi) or saint (muhaddas). As our Master and Apostle, may peace and the blessings of God be upon him, is the Khatam al-anbiya’ (Last of the Prophets), and after him there cannot come any prophet, for this reason saints have been substituted for prophets in this Shariah.”
— Shahadat-ul-Quran, 1893, p. 27-28. Roohani Khazain vol 6: 323-324
*

P.S. I would request you to refrain from personal attacks of any sort. That is one of the reasons my posts were only limited to quotes. The image provided, was not taken from an Anti Ahmadi website it was from the Lahori Jamaat’s (Ahmadis) website. Once again in the closing I will say I am not refuting anything, I was just showing the addressee that there are more ways of being a Kafir and Mirza Sahib has agreed with that as well.

PaKpatriot1

As ur relatives are still Ahmadis and u seem to be a more modern than ur relatives u certainly have asoft corner for ahmadis.. and judging the entire billion sunnis just by meeting some u dont like! I am living in USA for last 5 years and seen great christians but as a society i would certainly prefer Iskamic Malaysia to this land.. Discussing Atheism in this post would be an off topic thing.. u can open a separate thread to spread ur viewpoint.. but claiming atheist and judging different faiths is somewhat amusing.. yes my forefathers are same as urs but important thing is what to respect them for - human beings created by God or advance level animals. its entirely ones own choice.

Perplexing,

Thank you for the explanation! But the Arabic/Urdu translation you quoted before leads the reader into believing that it's all part of the same sentence, which it is certainly not! Different versions might have different page numbers due to spacing & text size but they do not have sentences moved around.

Lahori Jamaat has their own interpretation of the writings of Mirza Sahib and I have my own.

As I explained in my previous post, I have yet to see any quote regarding the claim of prophet hood by Mirza Sahib where he didn't further explains what exactly has he claimed. If someone for his own shortcomings doesn't understand it, then it's not Mirza Sahib's problem.

Hello! Ahmadjee.. First of all thank you for your enlightening post. I appreciate your concern and point has been taken. But I think you are failing to understand something. I did not post the quotes for some one to challenge me or prove me wrong, the original quote was posted by me in respose to Mr. Ouija’s post…

  1. I was trying to point out that even Mirza Sahib said if some one believes that there will be a Prophet after SAW then that person was out side the fold of Islam. (The nature of the Prophethood has no relevance here). I was merely giving a definition of some one that would be outside the pale of Islam according to Mirza Sahib other than what was provided by Mr. Ouija.

  2. The quote provided by me is not incorrect. It was taken out of an older version of Roohani Khazain. The newer version that me and you have has the remaining part of the text on the next page,p 297 of v 17, 4th line from the top. I am uploading the image below…

click above
[thumb=C]quote1.JPG[/thumb]

  1. There was a time when Mirza Sahib did not claim Prophethood. He claimed to be a Prophet in 1901. This phenomenon is explained as Gradual revealment on the Ahmadi website. So the quotes that were written before 1901 deny being a Prophet all-together. Look at the following ones…

“I am not a prophet but a muhaddas from God, and a recipient of Divine revelation so that I may re-vitalise the religion of the Holy Prophet, and He has raised me at the head of the century.”
— ibid., p. 383; Roohani Khazain vol 5: 383

“I firmly believe that our Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is the Khatam al-anbiya, and after him no prophet shall come for this nation (umma), neither new nor old … Of course, muhaddases will come who will be spoken to by God, and possess some attributes of full prophethood by way of zill (reflection), and in some ways be coloured with the colour of prophethood. I am one of these.”
— Nishan Asmani, 1892, p. 28; Roohani Khazain vol 4: 390-391

… by ‘messengers’ are meant those who are sent, whether such a one is an apostle (rasul), prophet (nabi) or saint (muhaddas). As our Master and Apostle, may peace and the blessings of God be upon him, is the Khatam al-anbiya’ (Last of the Prophets), and after him there cannot come any prophet, for this reason saints have been substituted for prophets in this Shariah.”
— Shahadat-ul-Quran, 1893, p. 27-28. Roohani Khazain vol 6: 323-324

P.S. I would request you to refrain from personal attacks of any sort. That is one of the reasons my posts were only limited to quotes. The image provided, was not taken from an Anti Ahmadi website it was from the Lahori Jamaat’s (Ahmadis) website. Once again in the closing I will say I am not refuting anything, I was just showing the addressee that there are more ways of being a Kafir and Mirza Sahib has agreed with that as well.

Perplexing,

There was a time when Mirza Sahib did not claim Prophethood. He claimed to be a Prophet in 1901.

You have been misinformed. His recieved revelation from an early age, one of his early revelations that is reported to be of 1868/1869 state:
Thy God is well pleased with what thou hast done. He will bless thee greatly, so much so that Kings shall seek blessing from your garments.
Such revelations were common & continued through the 1870s, but it was 1882 that he first recieved the revelation that he had been appoined by Allah:
O Ahmad, God has blessed thee......
Say, I am commanded to guide the world to the path of
righteousness and I am the first to believe......
Help shall come to thee from men whose hearts Allah has himself
prepared through revelation.

Both of the above revelations are reported in the book Tadhkira!

At this time he had also published his book Barheen-e-Ahmadiyya, (first part published in 1880 & second in 1882) and people who read his book knew he was no liar & wanted to do his ba'iat. They would come from far off places & used to request to be initiated at his had but Mirza Sahib would refuse saying, he had not been commanded by Allah to take any such Bi'at. Then in 1889 Hadhrat Sahib (as) received the following revelation:
When thou hast determined, put thine trust in Allah. And build the Ark under Our eyes, as commanded by our revelation. Verily, those who swear allegiance to thee indeed swear allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hand.[Tadhkira, ed. 1969, (p.168)]
And so was founded Jama'at Ahmadiyya!

Ahmadjee! I do not wish to indulge in any argumentative discussions about this topic. There is a book called “Truth Prevails”,written by Qazi Muhammad Nazir, in response to some allegations made by the Lahori Jamaat in a book called “Truth Triumphs”. This book can be read at the following link…

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/truth_prevails/index.html

it talks about the difference in claims before and after 1901.It does say that he claimed to be a Rusul which means the one that has been sent). You have indeed provided me with some revelations that were given to Mirza Sahib. But again you are failing to understand that according to Mirza Sahib revelations can be given to Muhadditheen as well.
*
“I am not a prophet but a muhaddas from God, and a recipient of Divine revelation so that I may re-vitalise the religion of the Holy Prophet, and He has raised me at the head of the century.”
— ibid., p. 383; Roohani Khazain vol 5: 383
*

But again you are failing to understand that according to Mirza Sahib revelations can be given to Muhadditheen as well

I do not disagree with the above. According to Ahmadiyya belief revelations to pious people are continious.

no no no…osma wont be hiding in the bathroom…he must be hiding in some cave or mosque etc…
fathe …
PELETINIAN R LIVING THERE BEFOR ISRAEL OCCUPATION…

mirzay ki zurriat ko ye aizaz baad main mila hay…dont u see the difference…

Mr. Bao Bihari,

Please stop spreading lies.

Ahmadiyya mission was established in Israel before the creation of state of Israel.

ooooooooo.....i thoght cant reply i this thread and fired a new thread .........but here i am............i think......we wont be getting any where...........LAKUM DE NAKUM WALIYADIN ...par aamul kar lain.......

Mr. Bao Bihari:

So!