A question to Ahmadies: what do u say about this....

Society Religion & Philosophy
181

Perplexing,

Just so you know, the Rohani Khazain vol. 7 that you quoted from is a compilation of three books. (1) Tuhfa Baghdad (2) Karamat-e-Sadiqeen (3) Hamama-tul-Bushra. All three of them are in Arabic! So, there is no way someone like myself can cross-reference what you translated up there, assuming that you did read the book yourself and that's your translation that you quoted in the thread.

Degas,

As you are always counting Mirza Sahib's miricles, add one more to the list. He never had any formal training in Arabic language. His opponents, mainly Mullahs, used to laugh & mock that he claims to be a Messiah but he can't even write a book in Arabic. To which, he was given the knowledge of literary Arabic in Wahi & afterwards he wrote close to 20 books & articles in Arabic.

182

ahmadjee

I am quoting from the authentic ahmadi website.. where he claimed he showed hundred of thousand miracles.. we need super computer to count those.. so u dont believe he claimed that he performed hundred of thousands of miracles?

And why Mirza as shown by his various ritings challenged his opponents with death claims.. that such a such person will die at specific times!

183

Degas Bhaijaan,

Two things for you. 1) There is a book called Tazkara, where his close followers at the time tried to list down all the Ilhams & miracles they could record. That book alone records many thousands, yet it's not absolute. 2) When it is said that give in Allahs way & he will give back seven times more; it doesn't mean exactly seven in number. But it's a phrase used for many. In the same way when it's said that even if you pray 70 times for a musrik Allah will not forgive him, it doesn't mean if you pray 71 times Allah would. Get your mind off of number crunching!

184

Is there any online copy of "Tazkara" I just want to read it..I am just curious as Mirza writes in so many places about miracles and laye great emphasis on them.. As u see Ahmadis in this thread refutes miracles performed by other Messengers of God amd Muhammad (PBUH) I want to see what those miracles are that Mirza performed..

185

I don't know of any online site that does have the Tazkara uploaded. But I am sure in a year or so it will be available, now that Rohani Khazain, Mahfoza'at & Istihara'at have been converted to digital text.

My father should have a copy of Tazkara & if you like I can scan some pages for you.

The Ahmadis here refute the popular belief associated with the miracles and not the miracles themselves. There is a big difference between the two statements.

In other words, to believe that Hazrat Musa's (as) stick had something to do with the sea being opened in comparison to believing that the low tide from the moon & probably Venus did the trick, doesn't refute the miracle of Hazrat Musa, it just refutes the supernatural fairy tale like phenomenon associated with the miracle! His miracle of saving his people & being at the right place at the right time is a phenomenal miracle.

186

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Degas: *
Perplexing

If u read Mirza's books they are too confusing.. in one place he may say hes a servant of Holy Prophet (PBUH) and at another he say he has all qualities of Muhammad (PBUH) and a mirror, at one place he regards Jesus (PBUH) highly while at others he says he didnt performed any miracle at all.. contradictions abound. His early works are entirely different from later ones.. Ahmadismostly post his good words that were written by hinm at start but refrain mostly from later works that are controvecial..
[/QUOTE]

A mirror image is not the same as the real image...
Sufis use the same terminology occasionaly. To be an Image of someone is not to be that person but to try to be so much like them, as to be an image of them. Many saintly people have been images of the prophet in that they shared similar traits...

187

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *

atleast he dint get flushed down the toilet like some other so-called-heroes :p
[/QUOTE]

You know what amazes me? That you have absolutely no clue how to debate, or have anything practical to add.. And yet you still return..
One question, WHY DO THE MODERATORS TOLERATE YOU?

188

^
there is nothing practical to ahmadiyat....

juma juma aath din huway nahin site pe aaye huway or hamay debate karna sikhayein ge....
beta jee tum abhee is layeq nahin huway ke ham se aisi baat karo....
go play with dolls....

189

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
**Perplexing*,

Just so you know, the Rohani Khazain vol. 7 that you quoted from is a compilation of three books. (1) Tuhfa Baghdad (2) Karamat-e-Sadiqeen (3) Hamama-tul-Bushra. All three of them are in Arabic! So, there is no way someone like myself can cross-reference what you translated up there, assuming that you did read the book yourself and that's your translation that you quoted in the thread.

[/QUOTE]

I am sorry! I totaly agree with you, Mirza Sahib should have translated it in to Urdu or English so that people like you can read it. But I will provide you with the translation and another quote.

(translation)
[thumb=C]denial.JPG[/thumb]

*"Can a wretched imposter who claims messengership and prophethood for himself have any belief in the Holy Quran? And can a man who believes in the Holy Quran, and believes the verse `He is the Messenger of Allah and the Khatam an-nabiyyin' to be the word of God, say that he is a messenger and prophet after the Holy Prophet Muhammad?"
(Anjam Atham, p. 27, footnote. Ruhani Khaza'in, vol. 11, p. 27)
*

*
All these allegations are entirely untrue and false. ... Now I make a clear and plain affirmation of the following matters before Muslims in this house of God: I believe in the finality of prophethood of the Khatam al-anbiya, may peace and the blessings of Allah be upon him, and I consider the person who denies the finality of prophethood as being without faith and outside the pale of Islam.''
(Speech in Delhi Central mosque, 23 October 1891. Majmu`a Ishtiharat, 1986 edition, vol. 1, p. 255)
*

(actual text)
[thumb=C]denial2.JPG[/thumb]

190

koi faida nahin in ko sumjhanay ka..........................

miorzay ki backwas ko ye log kabhi sahi nahin manay gay...........koi baat nahin......kartay raho tabhleegh israel main .....aap ka aaqa jo hain yahooodi

191

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PaKpatriot1: *

A mirror image is not the same as the real image...
Sufis use the same terminology occasionaly. To be an Image of someone is not to be that person but to try to be so much like them, as to be an image of them. Many saintly people have been images of the prophet in that they shared similar traits...
[/QUOTE]

And this information is coming from someone who has recently claimed that he is Atheist and ex-sunni :) but understands deeply about mirror of someone? At least u should have courage to say that ur ahmadi as all ur views are same..

192

hmmmm, who is in Kuwait and Saudi Arab? who is giving money to Pakistan?? arent they yahodi too??

Bao Bihari I expected more than this lie go get a life :wave:

193

Perplexing,

From the new quotes you mentioned, it is very clear to me that (1) you have not studied Ahmadiyya jama’at enough to understand the term Khatam-un-Nabiyeen, (2) You haven’t read the books you quoting because your first reference is inaccurate & your second one is incomplete.

Did you know that when someone wants to join the Ahmadiyya Jama’at, along with other Conditions of Ba’iat, he/she has to give affirmation that he/she has full faith in Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (saw) as Khatam-un-NabeyeeN. And according to the Ahmadiyya understanding the claim of prophet hood of Mirza Sahib (as) is not at all contradictory to the status of the Holy Prophet (saw) as Khatam-un-Nabiyeen. If you think it is in contradiction, then it’s a fault in your understanding, not ours.

Now, as far as your above references are concerned:

For the first, I have uploaded this image, Hamamat al-Bushra, p. 79. Ruhani Khaza’in, vol. 7, pp. 296. Match this with what you uploaded before and you will see that where I have marked in red is not what you quoted! (It’s towards the end of your quote). So where ever you got this from didn’t quiet give you the whole truth. Which makes me think that even their translation isn’t quiet accurate.

For the second reference, here is an copy of the whole foot note Page 27-a, Page 27-b, Page 28. (Anjam Atham, p. 27, footnote. Ruhani Khaza’in, vol. 11, p. 27) If you cannot understand Urdu let me paraphrase it for you.

Mirza Sahib (as), further down in the very foot note that you quoted explains that he has been called a “Nabi” & “Rasool” several times in the revelations. And like all other Mamoreen, (Urdu word for appointees of Allah), he cannot deny it & has to proclaim it! Then he further explains that anyone who proclaims **a separate nabowat after the Holy Prophet (saw) **has to proclaim a different Kalama & thus will be refuting the Quranic junction & comitting kufar. Contrary to that, he (Mirza Sahib (as) ) has claimed to be the prophet who gets all his knowledge, teachings & source of light from the Holy Prophet (saw) and is the very prophet whom the Holy Prophet (saw) prophesied about. His claim of prophet hood is not seperate but ingrained with that of the Holy Prophet, and he has not changed even an iota of the teachings of Islam.

What you don’t understand is that the Anti-Ahmadiyya sites where you get these quotes from, usually do not put up the whole thing. Instead they** (a)** clip one sentence & match it up with another to get the meaning they would like to have, as they did in the first reference you provided. (b) Don’t give the whole quote but instead only put up part of it to mislead the public, as they did in the second quote you mentioned. **(c) **and they have been caught a few times mistranslating the sentence. Especially if a word has more than one meaning, they will insist on taking the one which makes the word objectionable.

194

I appreciate ur concern about hate sites.. but Ahmadia official site just touches basics and tell mostly things Mirza wrote that were not controvercial.. The problem with readers like me is that Mirza works are very confusing.. he writes one thing here and refutes it outrightly at another place..

I am still puzzled why he cjalleged his opponents all the time with death time periods.. that some one will die before him.. I found this at so many of his writings..

195

giving permission to some one proclaiming to be muslim …a place to worship and a whole muncepality area governed by mirzais in heefa israel
is much more then what a muslim would get in israel unless that cult is planted by yahoodees…

196

Mr. Bao Bihari,

What about the palestenian Muslims living under the rule of Israel. They have their own mosques, they have independence of worshipping in their mosques. Let me see, ummmm! They are the agents of Israel.

197

Mr. Degas:

About the death of the opponents of the Promised Messiah, Why don't you present one example at a time and then we would see whether there is any merit in your allegations.

198

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
^
there is nothing practical to ahmadiyat....

juma juma aath din huway nahin site pe aaye huway or hamay debate karna sikhayein ge....
beta jee tum abhee is layeq nahin huway ke ham se aisi baat karo....
go play with dolls....
[/QUOTE]

Here is what is practical...
1. They recognize other religous beliefs as divinly inspired. They giuve credit to Guru Nanak, Buddha, Kirshna etc... Makes sense, because what kind of god would only send his message to a single people?

  1. Their interpretation of the Islam conforms more closely with science. And that makes sense in light of the fact that Science is supported by evidence.

bachai... You are a complete dufer.
You have no clue as to what you are talking about.
You CANT discuss anything, you CANT understand anything, and YOU are just not worth talking to.
Go back to your madrusa, It will insolate you from the real world, because nothing will prepare you for reality...

199

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Degas: *

And this information is coming from someone who has recently claimed that he is Atheist and ex-sunni :) but understands deeply about mirror of someone? At least u should have courage to say that ur ahmadi as all ur views are same..
[/QUOTE]

THIS IS PHILOSOPHY MERI JAAN... Being atheist and learning Philosophy are two different things... I guess you didnt learn that during your years of Pakistani Public Education.:)
Fine im and AHMADI NOW... :)
My views are practical, if the Ahmadis say something that makes sense, then I will listen...
I have the courage to look beyond petty differences unlike you people.
I have the courage to learn from others, while you are limited by never being able to think outside your box. I guess thats what religion does to you... Expecially Sunni Islam.

200

Here is another question for you SUNNIS... If you can answer this question properly without turning into the raging jihadis you are, phir meh maan gaya.
WHY is it that in every Khutba your Molvis give, they HAVE to mention politics, why do they HAVE to remind you of America and Israel being "Islams Enemy." Why do they have to remind you of the millions of obsurd conspiracy theories everywhere... Why are they always calling everything a Jihad? Do they EVER stick to the topic of Islam?