A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

[picoico]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

@Light Bearer

The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made — an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist. Most good, complete dictionaries readily support this.

Lack of belief is in itself a claim; how can it not be. It's a principled stand against God or the idea of a God, otherwise it would be agnosticism.

That is a claim, or at the very least a denial to a claim.

[picoico]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

@danial shah

true, and thats where the main drama and wars are usually. so it might be time to let the people without the book go at it and change it for the better.

Not true...these people had their own share of "drama"...it just not in our cultural knowledge.

[Seminole]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

@USResident

Actually, your argument can be contained if we try to understand whether the Noahs Arc incident wiped out the entire world or just his native surrounding. The views about this incident which state it was only his village seem highly probable.

Genesis is pretty specific that the flood covered the whole world and that is how it has always been interpreted by fundamentalists. If you interpret it any other way, you start the slippery slope of interpretation (which I have already slid down). But this is just one story. It starts with Adam and Eve and that whole impossbile scenario.

[quote]
How do single cell organisms die?
[/quote]
I am not including microscopic organisms and bacterium in my theory that all things must die. They are part of world obviously, but not comparable to the life cycles of plants and animals.

[bulleya]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

let me know ask you something real quick Anwaar bhai.... dont you think all religions do is just try to control people of what they are doing... some say you cant do this and some say you cant do that... being agnostic... you may believe in God if u want to, but you do what u think is right.... not what was said/written thousands of years ago according to the situation ofthe time... now the time has changed.... time changes.. things change...

[picoico]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

^
If the intent was an excuse to control, then for whom? Why is there no priestly class in Islam that will forever take advantage of this social engineering?

Clearly, the intent is something else...

[Seminole]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

The lack of a clerical hierachy in Islam has not hindered social engineering.

[Light_Bearer]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

@USResident

Actually no, you said it, it involves faith. Single cell to complex organism says there is no intervention of God and it just happened by nature. How can we quantify what nature is?

:) I said it for the believers man! if they can believe Adam and Eve story they should be able to believe anything after that point. Anyway this is not part of the discussion.

To me nature is what happenes by itself. Note I did not add by "devine intervention", it very well maybe but maybe not at the same time. Nuture is just is. For me unseen is unknown. So I don't claim that I know God, or My God is the best God or there is one God or multiple gods.

On the other hand I get perplexed when read about meta physics. Now that too is part of this world.

Religion to me was the best solution for the hungry minds of the respective eras, to answer their "why" questions. And whatever logic they had available at that time they have done a pretty good job.

Now hungry minds of today have better "whys" and deserve better answers.

Its always said never ask what was the first cause. I say why not? If religion is true it should be able answer this question.

Its Ok for atheist/agnostics to say "I don't know" because we rely only on our own intelligence. But theists supposedly have the devine power behind them, it's really hard to digest their "I don't know". AND if both of them are saying "they don't know" are they actually any different?

[Mostar95]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

If we go through the Quran, we get the impression that the sky is above and earth is underneath it! But if we go into space, the concept of above and underneath vanishes! We have to see "above" to have look at our earth from the moon!

[Light_Bearer]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

@picoico

Lack of belief is in itself a claim; how can it not be. It's a principled stand against God or the idea of a God, otherwise it would be agnosticism.

That is a claim, or at the very least a denial to a claim.

Probably true thats why atheism and agnosticism are closely related.

[picoico]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

@Seminole

The lack of a clerical hierachy in Islam has not hindered social engineering.

Social engineering is directed...not emergent. On which party's behalf is it done?

[picoico]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

@Light Bearer

To me nature is what happenes by itself. Note I did not add by "devine intervention", it very well maybe but maybe not at the same time.

Then why not simply state "nature happens"...adding I don't know simply affirms the obvious...and adds very little value.

I don't know *anything, *in that case...at least not for certain. All we have then are perceptions.... Solipsism is not something I'm keen on, though...

[quote]

Religion to me was the best solution for the hungry minds of the respective eras, to answer their "why" questions.

[/quote]

But the narration of the Quran...the Bible, even the Gita...it simply doesn't follow a pattern of answering "why" questions. It’s a way of reasoning about religion, but does religion reason that way?

[mangifera_indica]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

[QUOTE]

My question is what was your belief before you chose to become an Agnost or Atheist?

I would like all the atheists or agnosts who participate at Gupshup to state that here. Once I have enough participants I would like to analyze and question what compelled them to leave their former belief be it Islam, Chrisitianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. So the question would then be WHY?

[/QUOTE]

errrr... I am a Hindu agnostic(Vaisheshika)

I accepted Vaisheshika doctrine bcoz there is no religion on earth that xplains anything in the Universe. WE HUMANS must frankly accept that we know NOTHING about the Universe.

Show me just one thing the so-called religions explain.

[Mostar95]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

magnefira indica! magnefira sindica agress with you!

[USResident]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

@Seminole

Genesis is pretty specific that the flood covered the whole world and that is how it has always been interpreted by fundamentalists. If you interpret it any other way, you start the slippery slope of interpretation (which I have already slid down). But this is just one story. It starts with Adam and Eve and that whole impossbile scenario.

Possibly. Though it is commonly said there there were ten generations between Adam PBUH and Noah PBUH, it Adam PBUH was the first of humans then its probable that by Noahs time there were a lot of people but not that many and it would be probable that they all got wiped out as well. However as you said, having two of each species on the Arc seems very improbable with the thousands of different species of animals existing today, which is why I think the interpretation that all earth was wiped out seems improbable as well. But you know what interestingly, if you take darwins process of natural selection into account, it might not look as improbable, there maybe very few species of animals, birds and insects present at the time, enough for him to capture them and take them. With the passage of time those species have produced the numerous varities we see today.

@Seminole

I am not including microscopic organisms and bacterium in my theory that all things must die. They are part of world obviously, but not comparable to the life cycles of plants and animals.

Well there was reason for me asking this. Do these single cell organisms die with our death?

[USResident]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

@Light Bearer

Religion to me was the best solution for the hungry minds of the respective eras, to answer their "why" questions. And whatever logic they had available at that time they have done a pretty good job.

Now hungry minds of today have better "whys" and deserve better answers.

Its always said never ask what was the first cause. I say why not? If religion is true it should be able answer this question.

Its Ok for atheist/agnostics to say "I don't know" because we rely only on our own intelligence. But theists supposedly have the devine power behind them, it's really hard to digest their "I don't know". AND if both of them are saying "they don't know" are they actually any different?

Well there is fundamental difference between the goals of science and religion. I think science is what tells us how and religion mostly tells us why. Now this is not stricltly the demarcation. Sciences were devleoped after the fact, so they cannot answer the why questions. They can definitely shed light on a lot of hows.

I dont think hungry minds have better answers to their whys but better answers to their hows.

I think atheist, agnostic and believer are on different pages. Atheists, deny the existence of a supreme being. Agnotics, consider it an unknown as you said because it is unseen, so for them is is a question mark and believers say there is a supreme being.

[Seminole]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

@USResident

Possibly. Though it is commonly said there there were ten generations between Adam PBUH and Noah PBUH, it Adam PBUH was the first of humans then its probable that by Noahs time there were a lot of people but not that many and it would be probable that they all got wiped out as well. However as you said, having two of each species on the Arc seems very improbable with the thousands of different species of animals existing today, which is why I think the interpretation that all earth was wiped out seems improbable as well. But you know what interestingly, if you take darwins process of natural selection into account, it might not look as improbable, there maybe very few species of animals, birds and insects present at the time, enough for him to capture them and take them. With the passage of time those species have produced the numerous varities we see today.

I have studied the probablity of both the Adam/Eve and Noah/Arc theories for years and years. In my mind, they are both way beyond any realm of possibility. For instance, natural selection has taken place over millions of years beyond the few thousand years since man has had the ability to make boats.

[quote]
Well there was reason for me asking this. Do these single cell organisms die with our death?
[/quote]
Again, I don't believe single cell organisms fall into the same category as mammals in the life cycle. So I don't know how that would relate to theological discussion.

[USResident]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

@Seminole

I have studied the probablity of both the Adam/Eve and Noah/Arc theories for years and years. In my mind, they are both way beyond any realm of possibility. For instance, natural selection has taken place over millions of years beyond the few thousand years since man has had the ability to make boats.

Can I assume this to mean you do not believe in miraculous things? Or Acts of God.

[Seminole]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

I do. But I don't think God had one way of making miracles before man was learned and another now that man is. Miracles happen everyday, but not on the scale of these stories.

My belief in God is less of a person-like entity that interjects himself into the affiars of mankind. The universe and earth were created billions of years ago, and things happen naturally as they were laid out from the beginning. The diplacement of thousands of different kinds of animas around the globe was not sped up by God in the last few thousand years just for a planet for humans to inhabit. Humans are just a speck in the universe after all.

The impossiblity of a world wide flood w/at least 2 of every animal inside one boat aside, I don't believe God would wipe out mankind for being wicked. (If that were the case, the wolrd should be flooded right now). God is all knowing and all powerful and he is benevolent. He obviously knew that man would become wicked, so why would he kill them?

[USResident]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

@Seminole

I do. But I don't think God had one way of making miracles before man was learned and another now that man is. Miracles happen everyday, but not on the scale of these stories.

My belief in God is less of a person-like entity that interjects himself into the affiars of mankind. The universe and earth were created billions of years ago, and things happen naturally as they were laid out from the beginning. The diplacement of thousands of different kinds of animas around the globe was not sped up by God in the last few thousand years just for a planet for humans to inhabit. Humans are just a speck in the universe after all.

The impossiblity of a world wide flood w/at least 2 of every animal inside one boat aside, I don't believe God would wipe out mankind for being wicked. (If that were the case, the wolrd should be flooded right now). God is all knowing and all powerful and he is benevolent. He obviously knew that man would become wicked, so why would he kill them?

Sorry was a bit delayed.

Somewhat true, we do exagerate a lot. However a lot of things given in our scriptures are true and we just need to put it into context however miracles were performed by Prophets, natural occurances to me are not miracles. Like Jesus PBUH reviving the dead is a miracle. Creation of Adam is not a miracle to me because its something Allah SWT or God did. The difference being God is capable of all things, humans are not, so when they perform such earth shattering things then they do it with help from God.

I agree that a lot of things happen with the passage of time. However the starting point for everything has God behind it. Progress and creation are different things. Humans have progressed.

I don't believe God would wipeout mankind for being wicked either, thats why we have judgement. Do you think that Noah PBUH really existed?

[Light_Bearer]

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

I was traveling hence a late reply.

@USResident

I think atheist, agnostic and believer are on different pages. Atheists, deny the existence of a supreme being. Agnotics, consider it an unknown as you said because it is unseen, so for them is is a question mark and believers say there is a supreme being.

To me unseen is unknown. When theists say that there are signs everywhere; I see only possibilities.