A question for my Shia-Muslim brothers and sisters.

I did not realize this thread was still in existence. Khair..

None of u, Rhia or Gandalf, have submitted in ANY of your posts **ALI RA's OWN WORDS **IN WHICH HE APPROVED OF AND PERMITTED MUTAH FOR THE MUSLIMS OF HIS TIMES.

I am not talking about Imam Jafar Sadiq or Tabari or whoever. You have given those hadith, good. BUT do you have any conclusive AUTHORITY who has said all this?

Does Shi'ite literature ON ANY PAGE have even ONE sentence from **ALI * RA, where HE HIMSELF EXPLICTLY STATES MUTAH IS ALLOWED? *

Do you have a direct CLEAR and non-ambiguous answer for this?

We have Umar's own words, we have Muhammed SAW's own words, do you have Ali's own words?

Also, Gandalf and Rhia, I would like to know in clear terms from both of you, if you would actively seek to practice Mutah yourself today, wherever in the world u are.

That should end the topic. Thank you.

i would if was interested in a girl and i would wanna spend some time getting to know her..but i dont wanna wait too long..if i see a girl i like i will just tell my parents to go ahead and ask for the rishta...

and circumstances can arise in life where you could marry another woman..but i wont ever do it even if i can islamically...so muta'h is there too...and if i want i could go for it but i dont want long engagements..like i said chat mangni patt biya is what i want now...ummar nikal rahi hai aakhir

The discussion was at its end some time ago when people failed to answer any one of the arguments we presented to them.

Ana for us, when we have the words of Muhammad (saw) we have no need to fish around for words of either Ali or Umar, (does that surpsise you?!). Now pray tell, what will “Ali’s own words” prove or disprove when we have the Prophets own words allowing Mutah? It is you that have that dilemma and hence instead of nit-picking need to bring proof to us to disprove our belief in Mutah. As a matter a principle and belief, and this may go over your head, but for us, the word of Jafar(as) is the same as the word of Ali (as) but the word of the Prophet is Hujjat and more authoritative than the words of both. As I said before, the discrepancies are in Sunni books and that is why those references were used. We used it to prove Sunni viewpoint of Mutah is wrong. Otherwise we have no need to use them to prove allowance of Mutah for ourselves. We have the authority of the Prophet, now you can disprove that but I would not advise it.

I don’t see anything wrong with the practice of Mutah, wherever in the world one maybe.

Wa Salam.

Amsterdam would be a good place to practice Mutah!

That way at least you won't feel guilty of fornication.

On second thoughts, when you've a licence to fornicate, guilt does not come into it!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
Amsterdam would be a good place to practice Mutah!

That way at least you won't feel guilty of fornication.

On second thoughts, when you've a licence to fornicate, guilt does not come into it!
[/QUOTE]

haha ignorant reply by an ignorant person

Sheraz

For the likes of you. I am very ignorant!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ana: *
I did not realize this thread was still in existence. Khair..

None of u, Rhia or Gandalf, have submitted in ANY of your posts **ALI RA's OWN WORDS **IN WHICH HE APPROVED OF AND PERMITTED MUTAH FOR THE MUSLIMS OF HIS TIMES.

I am not talking about Imam Jafar Sadiq or Tabari or whoever. You have given those hadith, good. BUT do you have any conclusive AUTHORITY who has said all this?

Does Shi'ite literature ON ANY PAGE have even ONE sentence from **ALI * RA, where HE HIMSELF EXPLICTLY STATES MUTAH IS ALLOWED? *

Do you have a direct CLEAR and non-ambiguous answer for this?

We have Umar's own words, we have Muhammed SAW's own words, do you have Ali's own words?
[/QUOTE]

And my question is why do shia's need to prove that Maula Ali re-permitted mutah when he or his Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H never prohibited it. I dont know of any shia book that says Maula Ali or Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H ever prohibited the act...

But the interesting thing is some of the important questions were raised in the forum are still unanswered... Sister Rhia raised some important questions here


[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rhia: *

Rhia...

Hadith No. 1 states: Mutah was practised and sanctioned by the Prophet.

Hadith 2: Mutah was practised in times of War only, again sanctioned by the Prophet.

Hadith 3: Mutah was banned by the Prophet till Judgement Day on the day of Khyber.

Hadith 4: Mutah was allowed during the conquest of Mecca (which occurred after Khyber) but then forbidden forever.

Hadith 5: Mutah was practised during the lifetime of the Prophet AND during the caliphate of Hazrat Abu Bakr.

Hadith 6: Mutah was prohibited by Hazrat Umar (implying it was prohibited by neither the Prophet nor Hazrat Abu Bakr)

Hadith 7: Hazrat Umar reminded people of the prohibition of Mutah. Actually this is not a Hadith but an interpretation of Hazrat Umar may have meant when he said “I prohibit two Mutahs which were allowed by the Prophet…”

Faced with all these contradictory Sahih Ahadith, one may be forgiven for becoming a little confused. Nevertheless, we will give all these Hadith the benefit of doubt however weak the narrations or the obvious contradictions in some (I won’t mention selectivity). However with reference to Hazrat Umar supposedly reminding people about the prohibition of Mutah, one may question as to why he clearly referenced the prohibition to himself rather than to the Prophet? Why did he NOT say “I remind you of the Prophet’s prohibition of Mutah” or “I prohibit that which the Prophet had prohibited”? Instead he states “I prohibit that which the Prophet allowed”. Someone needs to answer these questions.

[/QUOTE]

I also pointed out some questions

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Insaniyat: *
I am not a scholar to argue in this issue... but according to the limited knowledge i have, I believe if muttah is something permitted during the time of Prophet, no other one has the right to over rule. We cannot change anything after prophet now can we... isnt that bidat... isnt there a ayat in the quran, which was revealed after the ghadeer incident

"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favour upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Qur'an 5:3)

and when the religon was perfected during the time of Prophet, what right does Umar has to over rule and impose strict punishments on it. Isnt thats how these other sects came into existance, because people kept changing things and tried imposing their veiws.

and to answer brother Faisal question about muttah close to prostitution, why is divorce allowed in islam, what will you call if a person marries a girl for awhile and later gives her haq mehar and leaves her. what will you call that. I believe muttah protects a girls right as compare to prostitution, she gets her right as a wife i believe and the kids to get inhertiance from their dad and probably prevents people from performing zina and other bad deeds. Brother God knows the best, if such a clause is there in islam, leave it to God, he knows what can be the reasons behind it. There might be deep meaning and concerns behind it which we might not know, and if u want a practical meaning about each of the clauses in islam, what would you call people going every year and performing tawafs of the four walls of Qaba.... What does that imply.

Sister Anna, yeah we don't read taraweeh's, but yeah in ramzan we are encouraged to read quran. Its just that we don't read it in forms as prayers, to the best of my knowledge it was something not practiced during the time of the Prophet and if its something that was introduced after his death, (like the ban of muttah) its a Bidaat we don't have to do.
[/QUOTE]

Any answers fellow brothers

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rhia: *
Now pray tell, what will “Ali’s own words” prove or disprove when we have the Prophets own words allowing Mutah?

[/QUOTE]

Except that we ALSO have Prophet's (Sallalah o Alaihai Wassalam) OWN words to PROHIBIT mu'tah as well? Go figure. :~)

Alhamdulillah. Now we might be very slowly getting somewhere. :)

BUT you ALSO have:
a) The Prophet’s OWN words ALLOWING Mutah
b) And words which are NOT the Prophets (pbuh), forbidding Mutah (if you believe this was a "reminder" please back it up with evidence).

So which Hadith out of all of these three and more AUTHENTIC (according to you) Ahadith are you inclined to believe, all things being equal? Please don’t be selective.

Look at the timeline of all relevant ahadith on this issue. Drinking wines was also permitted in the early times of Islam. Doesn't mean its permitted now. So sequence of ahadith, just like time sequence of ayat is important in understanding them.

Waisay, I have no wish to say you should or should not do anything. You can all do as you wish or as you deem correct. If you want to engage in mu'tah, and think that you have evidence to back it up as a good deed, by all means do it. Its your life and your hereafter.

My only aim was (1) to get some more information on this topic, and (2) make sure that my understanding on the issue is correct, after this discussion. Alhamdollilah, I feel I am successful on both these counts. I am hopeful that anyone reading these posts will also make the correct deductions. Ofcourse, as always, I assume everyone will make whatever they want to make out of this issue based on what evidence they find as more accurate, and what ruling seems more true to the heart.

This discussion is rapidly becoming inane. Gandalf has finally resorted to slam dunk personal attacks ("Dono baray characters hoe.") and the rest instead of giving a straight answer to a simple question are again repeating what we have been through several times. Now implying that the conduct of Hazrat Ali (RA) is not at all relevant. Alright, I think its pretty clear now, who has the evidence to back their claim and who has not.

Have a good day. :~)

Just when we were starting to cut through the diatribe. You could have stated "your belief is yours and mine is mine" in your first post and there would have been no need for this. Since you did not, I hope you will indulge us a little while more.

Can you briefly summarise what is/was your understanding and what conclusion if any you have reached after reading these post? Or do you still believe Mutah is, the "P-word"?

Why is the "timeline" for Hadith different in different Sahih Books? Why do Sunni's differ in their interpretaion of Mutah?

And lastly why don't you at least try to answer some question with whatever little "evidence" you may have to give your viewpoint some credence other than your personal testemonials, which in my view do not hold any authority, because you do tend to be selective in believing what you want to and then mighty conveniently resort to Hadith when you want to.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rhia: *

Hadith No. 1 states: Mutah was practised and sanctioned by the Prophet.
[/quote]

This was for specific occasions and circumstances as the reports explain. But was then absolutely prohibited by the Prophet (s) himself.

[quote]
Hadith 2: Mutah was practised in times of War only, again sanctioned by the Prophet.
[/quote]

But then prohibited by him (s).

[quote]
Hadith 3: Mutah was banned by the Prophet till Judgement Day on the day of Khyber.
[/quote]

From what i can see, there is no report concerning the prohibition at Khaybar that also says "till Judgement Day", so i'm wondering which narration you are using as evidence here? Perhaps we can continue the discussion about Khaybar once you've clarified that.

[quote]
Hadith 4: Mutah was allowed during the conquest of Mecca (which occurred after Khyber) but then forbidden forever.
[/quote]

Yes, the Prophet (s) did once and for all prohibit it at the time of the conquest of Makkah. What's the problem with that?

[quote]
Hadith 5: Mutah was practised during the lifetime of the Prophet AND during the caliphate of Hazrat Abu Bakr.
[/quote]

The fact that some people might have practiced mutah unilaterally during Abu Bakr's (r) caliphate doesn't cancel the Prophet's (s) earlier prohibition. The lack of awareness of the prohibition on the part of some individuals is hardly conclusive evidence.

[quote]
Hadith 6: Mutah was prohibited by Hazrat Umar (implying it was prohibited by neither the Prophet nor Hazrat Abu Bakr)
[/quote]

When 'Umar (r) reminded the congregation that mutah was not allowed he actually referred to the Prophet's (s) earlier prohibition. Refer to my earlier post on this.

[quote]
Hadith 7: Hazrat Umar reminded people of the prohibition of Mutah. Actually this is not a Hadith but an interpretation of Hazrat Umar may have meant when he said "I prohibit** two Mutahs which were allowed by the Prophet…"**
[/quote]

See below.

[quote]
However with reference to Hazrat Umar supposedly reminding people about the prohibition of Mutah, one may question as to why he clearly referenced the prohibition to himself rather than to the Prophet? Why did he NOT say "I remind you of the Prophet's prohibition of Mutah" or "I prohibit that which the Prophet had prohibited"?
[/quote]

Telling the congregation that the Prophet (s) had prohibited it is in itself a reminder

[quote]
Instead he states "I prohibit that which the Prophet allowed". Someone needs to answer these questions.
[/quote]

And from where are you quoting 'Umar's (r) exact statement: ""I prohibit that which the Prophet allowed"?

Iqbal

When 'Umar (r) reminded the congregation that mutah was not allowed he actually referred to the Prophet's (s) earlier prohibition<<

I must have missed the quote where he says "I remind you not to do Mutah because the Prophet had forbidden it". Please be so kind as to re-post it here again.

Sunni References : Sahih Muslim, English version, v2, chapter CDXLII, Tradition #2801 Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v2, p885, Tradition #145. --
"Jabir Ibn Abdullah reported: "We contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of the dates or flour as a dower during the life time of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and during the time of Abu Bakr until Umar forbade it because of Amr Ibn Huraith."

Is Jabir ibn Abdullah's reporting of this Ahadith not correct?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rhia: *

I must have missed the quote where he says "I remind you not to do Mutah because the Prophet had forbidden it". Please be so kind as to re-post it here again.
[/QUOTE]

I've already addressed this:

"Telling the congregation that the Prophet (s) had prohibited it is in itself a reminder"

Iqbal

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rhia: *

**Sunni References : Sahih Muslim, English version, v2, chapter CDXLII, Tradition #2801 Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v2, p885, Tradition #145. --
"Jabir Ibn Abdullah reported: "We contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of the dates or flour as a dower during the life time of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and during the time of Abu Bakr until Umar forbade it because of Amr Ibn Huraith."

Is Jabir ibn Abdullah's reporting of this Ahadith not correct?**
[/QUOTE]

I've already addressed this:

The fact that some people might have practiced mutah unilaterally during Abu Bakr's (r) caliphate doesn't cancel the Prophet's (s) earlier prohibition. The lack of awareness of the prohibition on the part of some individuals is hardly conclusive evidence.

How does Jabir's (r) not knowing about the prohibition nullify it?

Iqbal

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Iqbal1089: *

I've already addressed this:

"Telling the congregation that the Prophet (s) had prohibited it is in itself a reminder"

Iqbal
[/QUOTE]

No no please excuse me, I'm not too bright you see so can you please put up the exact hadith, word for word, as to what Hazrat Umar said. I'm really not interested in your interpretation of it.

How does Jabir's saying the above lead you to conclude that "a few people were not aware of the prohibition of mutah"? How can you suppose from that quotation that he was not aware of its "nullification"? Are you in effect denying the authenticity of Hadeeth?

Mashallah sister Rhia,

Truly a Zainab in Yazid's court.

Sister, these brothers/sisters will just go around in circles. Please do not waste yr time.

Your arguments are eloquent but you will not find any listeners. They have made their judgement about mut'a well before this thread was ever opened.

To cover up Umar, they will accuse other sahabahs of forgetting the prohibition, make up stories of what the prophet said, and many others.

I think we understand each other's point of view.

The simple fact will always remain that the quranic verse on muta is present, unabrogated.

As such any hadiths that contradicts this verse is false.

Thank you sister for yr insight.

ws

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Gandalf: *

**To cover up Umar, they will accuse other sahabahs of forgetting the prohibition, make up stories of what the prophet said, and many others.

[/QUOTE]

You do make me smile Gandalf... imagine that, a Shi'ite hurting inside because he thinks sahabahs are being "accused".

Oh, and by the way, no one accused Jabir (r) of "forgetting" anything!

Iqbal