A question for my Shia-Muslim brothers and sisters.

Gandalf,

Assalam O Alaikum
1. I couldn't figure out who has written this article, and what is his stature and credibility? This is important, because the author clearly mentioned that it is "his personal opinion" about the special case permissibility.
1. Do you agree to this opinion, or did you merely post it from some website? Specifically, do you agree that in present times, there should be no mu'ta in Islamic countries? Because that will throw out all the explanations you had given in this thread that if something is allowed by the Prophet (Sallalah o Alaihay Wassalam) then no one has the power to modify or abrogate it. So if you agree to this article, you are agreeing that the Prophet (Sallalah o Alaihay Wassalam) did prohibit mu'ta as is evident from the title of the article and that you had created a sort of incorrect and false impression through out this thread.
*] I had asked you specifically for the ruling of the fourth ameer-ul-momineen Hazrat Ali (Razi Allah Ta'llah) on this issue during his khilafa. I see you never provided it. Not sure if you plan to at some future date or not.
Allah Hafiz.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Gandalf,

[li] Do you agree to this opinion, or did you merely post it from some website? [/li][/QUOTE]

Brother,

I posted it because it seemed a more reasonable stand coming from a sunni brother on the issue.

The author allows for mut'a under certain circumstances. I do not think that he would allow mut'a if he thought it had been prohibited by the holy prophet (pbuh).

For example, mastabation is NOT ALLOWED under any circumstance. This because it has been prohibited by Allah (swt) and his prophet (pbuh) - doesn't matter if you live in a western country or not.

However, I do not agree with the restrictions he has put on mut'a. I showed this article merely to point out that muta should not be thought of as prostitution.

The writer agrees that mut'a is permissible. Exactly when to use mut'a is debatable.

As for hadiths from Imam Ali (as), al-Thalabi and al-Tabari, when these two authors reached the verse of mut'a in their major tafsir works, they reported with a chain of transmission to Imam Ali (as) saying: "HadUmar not prohibited the mut'a, nobody would have fornicated, apart from those on the verge [of death]."

The Imamis have agreed - following their twelve Imams - on its continued permissibility in accordance with the proofs, some of which you have read i.e., the consensus of the people of qibla that the Almighty Allah legislated it in His true religion and allowed it's proclamation by a caller of His great Prophet and that no abrogation of it has been proven from Allah, the Almighty, nor from his Prophet until the revelation was severed by the Almighty by His taking His Prophet to the abode of His nobility.

On the contrary, it has been proven that it was not abrogated by the texts of our authentic traditions successively transmitted from the Imams of the pure families. You can refer to it's contents in the Wasa'il-Shi'a ila ahkam al-Shari'a - which contain hadiths from the 12 imams that link up to the holy prophet (pbuh).

Ok, so you don't agree to the article 100%. The article suggested mu'ta was prohibited by the Prophet (Sallalah o Alaihay Wassalam). You don't agree to that. The article said that it is prohibited in muslim countries. You disagree. It gives the personal opinion that it is permissible in very special cases. You disagree. If you look at the whol gist of the article, it actually goes against all your arguments. Just to remind you, I have read that if you are about to die of hunger and there is just no food available, you can even eat pig to survive and sustain. That does not mean pig-meat is NOT prohibited. This is just an example to show, that in EXTREME cases, ANYTHING can become permissible. I hope you get the point.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Gandalf: *

As for hadiths from Imam Ali (as), al-Thalabi and al-Tabari, when these two authors reached the verse of mut'a in their major tafsir works, they reported with a chain of transmission to Imam Ali (as) saying: "HadUmar not prohibited the mut'a, nobody would have fornicated, apart from those on the verge [of death]."
[/QUOTE]

Without going into any detail about the validity of the statement, lets assume it is correct, it still does NOT say that Hazrat Ali (Razi Allah Tallah) disagreed with Hazrat Umar (Razi Allah Tallah) on his ruling. More importantly, is there any evidence which says that Hazrat Ali (Razi Allah Tallah) did or did NOT permit any mu'tah during his khilafa? Were muslims allowed to engage in mu'tah during Hazrat Ali's (Razi Allah Tallah) khilafat, after Hazrat Umar (Razi Allah Tallah) reminded muslims about the strict punishment? Why not?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *

Without going into any detail about the validity of the statement, lets assume it is correct, it still does NOT say that Hazrat Ali (Razi Allah Tallah) disagreed with Hazrat Umar (Razi Allah Tallah) on his ruling.

[/QUOTE]

Brother,

Are u telling me that Imam Ali (as) blaming Umar for fornication is not a clear indication of his disagreement of Umar ?

Why don't you tell me why you are so inclined to support Umar against the verdicts of the qur'an ?

Most ahl-sunnat scholars consider masturbation a sin and cannot be performed in any circumstance. Period. Masturbation would be easier than muta, yet the prophet (pbuh) never instructed muslims to this act. Instead, Allah (swt) and his prophet (pbuh) allowed muslims to perform mut'a.

You ask alot of unnecessary questions yet you have not given one reason why you are so inclined to chose hadiths of Umar or others over clear orders of Allah (swt) and his prophet (pbuh).

Have you read any of the hadiths I have posted showing that muta was practised up until the early years of Umar and then banned by him ?

Have you read what Umar's son says about Umar's verdicts ?

Brother, at this point, I am wasting my time discussing this topic with you.

You have chosen not to explain any of the hadiths in yr sahih books that contradict yr beliefs yet have been very liberal in demanding proofs from others.

Choose to believe what you want. Let's make Allah (swt) our judge. To those who have made up their mind not to see the truth, preaching to them holds no value.

I am not going to post anymore on this subject.

ws

You have not given one SINGLE evidence which suggested that Hazrat Ali (Razi Allah Tallah) permitted mu'tah, using the same arguments you are giving. None. If thats the case, he must have agreed with Hazrat Umar (Razi Allah Tallah). You are SURELY FAR LESS knowledgable about matters of sharia than Hazrat Ali (Razi Allah Tallah).

First you came back with an article on which you yourself don't agree on the key aspects discussed there. And then you came back with the same argument again that Umar (Razi Allah Tallah) had no authority to say what he did. You never once seriously answered the simple question raised by me. I am not interested in what you may claim to know or interpret about this issue. I am more interested in how Hazrat Ali (Razi Allah Tallah) acted on this issue when he was the khalifa.

Good thing that you are giving up this discussion, because it was beginning to become frustrating, asking the same question again and again, with you coming back with irrelevant and repetitive non-answers each time.

Brother,

You are certainly a confused individual. When I answer questions you pose, you say that I have not answered them.

You asked for a hadith from Imam Ali (as) - I gave it to u. You then say that it does not seem like his statement opposes Umar. I explained the errror of yr thinking.

You said muta was prohibited. I showed u hadiths from yr sahih books as well as the quranic verse that shows muta is valid.

Now, ur question is that what did Imam Ali (as) do during his caliphate. I have given u the shia reference books that contain hadiths showing that Imam Ali (as) and all the 12 pure imams (as) permitting muta as instructed by Allah (swt) and his prophet (pbuh).

Now yr question is what happened in Imam Ali's (as) time. You ask this as though all the people followed what the Imam said during his caliphate. When u had Aisha and Muwayah waging wars against the Imam, do u not think that there were groups of people who followed their own whim ?

You have not made any efforts to prove yr beliefs. I asked u many times how u can explain hadiths in yr books showing the validity of muta - YOU have no answer.

I asked about how u can go against the verse of the quran on muta - u have no answer.

I asked how u believe Umar could change the laws of Allah (swt) and his prophet (pbuh) - u have no answer.

Now I ask u one more question - but I know u will not have any answer.

It is yr belief that Abu Baker was the most righteous of the sahabahs, including Ali (as), and was the FIRST CALIPH. My question to u is - yr hadith shows that muta was permitted during the life of the prophet (pbuh) and Abu Baker, but later banned by Umar.

Why dont u follow what Abu Baker followed, instead of opting for Umar (or even Ali (as) who in yr opinion also prohibited muta) ?

Why do u follow Umar instead of Abu Baker, when Abu Baker is higher in status than Umar ?

For once Faisal, answer some questions to back up yr belief.

ws

You should scroll up and read Hasnain and Iqbal's posts again. They have attempted to prove your theory incorrect where you suggest as if Hazrat Umar (Razi Allah Tallah) did something innovative when he proclaimed strict punishment for anyone indulging in mu'tah. They have shown that it was prohibited by the Prophet (Sallalah o Alaihay Wassalam) in his lifetime, and the second khalifah strongly reminded muslims about this prohibition. As such this prohibition remains till the Day of Judgement.

I must have missed any statement from the fourth khalifa of the momineed (Razi Allah Tallah) where he permits mu'tah. Please paste it again. The only statement I read was when you posted it where it says something about all fornication would have ended if mu'tah was not prohibited. This does not seem to suggest he lifted the prohibition. Unless ofcourse you intend to interpret it that way, which is fine by me. What you choose to believe is up to you.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
You should scroll up and read Hasnain and Iqbal's posts again. They have attempted to prove your theory incorrect where you suggest as if Hazrat Umar (Razi Allah Tallah) did something innovative when he proclaimed strict punishment for anyone indulging in mu'tah. They have shown that it was prohibited by the Prophet (Sallalah o Alaihay Wassalam) in his lifetime, and the second khalifah strongly reminded muslims about this prohibition. As such this prohibition remains till the Day of Judgement.

I must have missed any statement from the fourth khalifa of the momineed (Razi Allah Tallah) where he permits mu'tah. Please paste it again. The only statement I read was when you posted it where it says something about all fornication would have ended if mu'tah was not prohibited. This does not seem to suggest he lifted the prohibition. Unless ofcourse you intend to interpret it that way, which is fine by me. What you choose to believe is up to you.
[/QUOTE]

and you should read his posts again too because he has posted many hadith from your hardly sahi books that Prophet never prohibited mutah..and if you dont believe these books completely then dont worry i am with you...i mean how can you justify a hadith where Prophet Moses is running naked after a stone because stone stole His cloths while he was taking shower

Sheraz.. lets not bring different tangents into this discussion. This is a thread about mutah. If you wish to discuss Prophet Moses (Allaih Sallam) or validity of ahadith literature, please feel free to open a new thread.

The hadiths Gandalf had posted, are discussed in detail in Hasnain's post where Hasnain has explained why the conclusion reached by Gandalf is incorrect. Atleast as far as sunni scholars are concerned. I will not duplicate those points. They are there for you to discuss. So you might be better off posting from your own books, and explain this from your own sources. I did not see any statement from Hazrat Ali (Razi Allah Ta'llah) which says that mu'tah was re-permitted during the time of fourth caliphate, as Hazrat Umar (Razi Allah Ta'llah) had no power to make it prohibited in the first place. Atleast not in this thread. I did read one, which links fornication with prohibition of mutah. If I missed, please post again. Thanks.

Guys
How about a truce?

Anyone can bring any hadith to support their preconceive belief and someone else will bring a proof to reject another party argument.

*Let us end this argument on a good note. Let's just say there is a reasonable proof on why Sunni believe Muta is not permitted and substantial proof on why Shiite believe Muta is Valid. *

This is as good as it gets.
Peace

Faisal, let them be ... they don't have a shred of evidence for their beliefs. They like to take our texts out of context, yet they disrespect the very same narrators they use to clutch at for support. They are clearly showing signs of arrogance, unwilling to accept the truth when it comes to them.

If you were to ask them who is the Creator of the Heavens and the earth, they would be slow in answering. And if you were to ask them who alone knows all the affairs of the unseen, many of them would hesitate to respond, as many of them have taken partners along side Allaah, in His Names and Attributes.

Abdullaah ibn Saba will have a lot to answer for on the Day of Judgement.

Faisal, there's no point of wasting your efforts on people who hold their hands to their ears and shut their eyes.

Indeed, all Praise is due to Allaah, Lord of the Worlds, Master of the Day of Recompense ... everyone shall come to know the truth. It is not hidden, it is clear and apparant. Sooner or later everybody shall taste it, in life or at death.

... and Allaah knows best.

May Allaah guide us all.

&peace

Faisal,
I will reply asap (tomorrow) inshallah. :)

I hope that will not bother you too much Brother Hasnain. :)

May Allah guide us all.

Wasalam.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Sheraz.. lets not bring different tangents into this discussion. This is a thread about mutah. If you wish to discuss Prophet Moses (Allaih Sallam) or validity of ahadith literature, please feel free to open a new thread.

The hadiths Gandalf had posted, are discussed in detail in Hasnain's post where Hasnain has explained why the conclusion reached by Gandalf is incorrect. Atleast as far as sunni scholars are concerned. I will not duplicate those points. They are there for you to discuss. So you might be better off posting from your own books, and explain this from your own sources. I did not see any statement from Hazrat Ali (Razi Allah Ta'llah) which says that mu'tah was re-permitted during the time of fourth caliphate, as Hazrat Umar (Razi Allah Ta'llah) had no power to make it prohibited in the first place. Atleast not in this thread. I did read one, which links fornication with prohibition of mutah. If I missed, please post again. Thanks.
[/QUOTE]

As I said, you will not have any answers to the questions posed. Just a rehash of some simplistic excuses posted by Hasnain.

When you have no answers to the quran or yr authentic hadiths, bring up yr false propagandas of ibn Saba.

Dono baray characters hoe. You guys give me alot of pleasure when you get defensive.

Koi baat nahin meray bacho.

As google said, we'll let u go.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Hasnain: *

If you were to ask them who is the Creator of the Heavens and the earth, they would be slow in answering.
[/quote]

Allah (swt) - didn't take long to answer that :)

[quote]
And if you were to ask them who alone knows all the affairs of the unseen, many of them would hesitate to respond, as many of them have taken partners along side Allaah, in His Names and Attributes.
[/quote]

Allah (swt). He has no partner(s).

Who are u talking about ?

Accusations without proof is not very islamic now brother.

Learn what u preach first before preaching to others.

Pak lost in cricket so I am in no mood to answer a fitting response to u.

Consider yrself lucky.

ws

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Gandalf: *

As for hadiths from Imam Ali (as), al-Thalabi and al-Tabari, when these two authors reached the verse of mut'a in their major tafsir works, they reported with a chain of transmission to Imam Ali (as) saying: "HadUmar not prohibited the mut'a, nobody would have fornicated, apart from those on the verge [of death]."
[/quote]

Looking at the chain of transmission for this report, as given in al-Tabari for example, one sees that the last name in the chain is al-Hakam [ibn 'Utaybah] who says that 'Ali ibn Abi Talib (r) said....

The fact is that al-Hakam ibn 'Utaybah never met 'Ali ibn Abi Talib (r) in order to relate anything directly from him. Al-Hakam is usually removed from 'Ali (r) by at least one other narrator coming between them, such as Ibn Abi Layla or Yahya ibn al-Jazzar. No such narrator is mentioned in the chain in question. The hadith scholar al-Mizzi in his monumental Tahdib al-Kamal (#1603) lists some 44 authorities from whom al-Hakam heard and reported; 'Ali ibn Abi Talib (r) is not listed as one of them. The chain is therefore broken. We do not know on whose authority al-Hakam heard this report ascribed to 'Ali (r). It can't, therefore, stand as evidence.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Gandalf: *

Are u telling me that Imam Ali (as) blaming Umar for fornication is not a clear indication of his disagreement of Umar ?
[/quote]

See above.

Iqbal

forgive me for the small interjection here.. are you saying Iqbal that we can't now take Tabari's word for it??

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

forgive me for the small interjection here.. are you saying Iqbal that we can't now take Tabari's word for it??
[/QUOTE]

Rather than spoon-feeding you the answer, you might want to have a think yourself... here are some clues:

  1. What methodology does al-Tabari employ when he authors his works?

  2. What is an author suggesting when he provides you with the chain of transmission?

Let me know if you get stuck.

Iqbal

forgive me for i'm not a hadith 'scientist'.. i take people on their word.. till they are proven wrong.. then I never take anything they say as a fact and have to investigate every time..

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

forgive me for i'm not a hadith 'scientist'..
[/quote]

Okay, so you got stuck...

[quote]
*i take people on their word.. till they are proven wrong.. *
[/quote]

Well, i've done the hard work for you... i've provided an analysis of the report from al-Tabari.

[quote]
then I never take anything they say as a fact and have to investigate every time..
[/QUOTE]

Do let us know what your investigation shows... i've given you some leads/clues to set the ball rolling.

Iqbal

Rhia...

Assalam O Alaikum.

I read your whole post, but it didn't include the simple answer I was looking for.

All you needed to do, was post excerpts from your own sources, ahadith literature which is accepted by shia scholars, with the chain of narrators used in Fiqh-e-Jaffaria, and prove that Hazrat Ali (Razi Allah Tallah) permitted mu'tah during his khilafat. After all, you keep on saying that Hazrat Umar (Razi Allah Tallah) had no power to abrogate something which Prophet (Sallalah o Alaihai Wassalam) didn't prohibit. So prove your point, using the words and actions of Hazrat Ali (Razi Allah Tallah), who became the fourth Ameer-ul-Momineen AFTER the second and the third khalifa. I am sure he knew more than you do.

Jazak Allah.<<<

“Ali asked the Prophet (PBUH), what is the reward of the person who participates in the virtuous deed of arranging the mutual meetings of a man and woman (for the intention of marriage)?" The Prophet (PBUH) said, "He will receive the same reward as the two who engage in mut’ah.”

No one can close the door of blessings which Allah opens for His servants, Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq said, “Mut' ah is one of the blessings of Allah."

It is narrated that once the Prophet (PBUH) was sitting among his companions and the discussion came to the topic of mut'ah. The Prophet (PBUH) said, "Do you know what is the reward of mut'ah?” The companions answered, "No," The Prophet (PBUH) then said, "Jibreel just came to me and said, '0 Muhammad, Allah sends His blessings to you and commands you to instruct your UMMAH to engage in the practice of mut'ah since this is the practice of [Allah's] virtuous servants.”

A few of the multitudes of Shia references (Tafseer Qummi, Minhaaj Sadiqeeen, Kafi, Man La Yahdhurul Faqih to name a few). Frankly, I would not be surprised if these are rejected outright by those who were so anxiously awaiting them. ;)

We have long established Mutah does not in any way equate to prostitution. Whoever holds the view it is prostitution has nothing to go on except their own personal view, which is wrong since it is not based on the Quran and Sunnah. Since Mutah was practised during the Prophet’s time we know there is no question of it being “wrong”. So now the question we beg to ask is of the subsequent prohibition and allowance of Mutah and whether in fact if it was prohibited at all.

The argument is rather simple my dear brothers when you think of it this way: Shias deny that Mutah was ever prohibited by the Prophet therefore naturally all of their sources contain references to confirm this. So to try and DISPROVE Mutah from Hadith collections of Shia scholars is really a moot point. However, nobody will stop you should you wish to try, defy as it may all common sense. Some of you may still insist on Hazrat Ali’s point of view vis-à-vis Hazrat Umar’s prohibition/“reminder” both of which are somewhat relegated when a clear cut ruling of the Prophet (pbuh) is present. So to say Hazrat Ali said this and Hazrat Umar said that (especially when you insist on Shia Hadith), when the Prophet in fact never prohibited Mutah, is totally irrelevant. There is no contradiction regarding allowance of Mutah when it comes to Shia literature.

HOWEVER, since Sunni hadith literature is replete with contradictions, so much so that you could take one Hadith and “Abrogate” it with another, and like our brother Iqbal here, one could eventually start to question the authenticity of the maybe-not-so-authentic literature after all, if only by beginning with the chain of narrators, therefore it is imperative to prove or disprove the validity of Mutah from Sunni sources. So please bear with us. All the references are from Sunni sources (Sahih Muslim, Musnad Abu Dawood and the Sunans) provided earlier in the posts by Brothers Gandalf and Hasnain. I summarise below:

Hadith No. 1 states: Mutah was practised and sanctioned by the Prophet.

Hadith 2: Mutah was practised in times of War only, again sanctioned by the Prophet.

Hadith 3: Mutah was banned by the Prophet till Judgement Day on the day of Khyber.

Hadith 4: Mutah was allowed during the conquest of Mecca (which occurred after Khyber) but then forbidden forever.

Hadith 5: Mutah was practised during the lifetime of the Prophet AND during the caliphate of Hazrat Abu Bakr.

Hadith 6: Mutah was prohibited by Hazrat Umar (implying it was prohibited by neither the Prophet nor Hazrat Abu Bakr)

Hadith 7: Hazrat Umar reminded people of the prohibition of Mutah. Actually this is not a Hadith but an interpretation of Hazrat Umar may have meant when he said “I prohibit two Mutahs which were allowed by the Prophet…”

Faced with all these contradictory Sahih Ahadith, one may be forgiven for becoming a little confused. Nevertheless, we will give all these Hadith the benefit of doubt however weak the narrations or the obvious contradictions in some (I won’t mention selectivity). However with reference to Hazrat Umar supposedly reminding people about the prohibition of Mutah, one may question as to why he clearly referenced the prohibition to himself rather than to the Prophet? Why did he NOT say “I remind you of the Prophet’s prohibition of Mutah” or “I prohibit that which the Prophet had prohibited”? Instead he states “I prohibit that which the Prophet allowed”. Someone needs to answer these questions.

I am not surprised of the variations in thought in our Sunni brothers and sisters. Some answer with “the Prophet neither allowed nor disallowed it, an argument which has already been refuted. Whilst some who live in a cocoon will undermine their own credibility by promoting here’ say and rumours whilst not knowing the first thing about Jafri beliefs. And whilst still some others start to question the authenticity of the narrators of this literature – which is nonetheless encouraging in showing some use of reasoning and logic – it would lead to further interesting discussions. A case in point with reference to Al Hakam: the collectors of Ahadith came a century or two after the Prophet’s time so it is more than necessary to utilise intellect to judge every Hadith on its individual merits in order to determine its authenticity.

Someone mentioned slavery as an example of something practised during the Prophets time but not practised nowadays. Well my reply is that slavery was never ever banned by the Prophet nor anyone else; its practise died out with changing cultural customs.

Lastly, why have there been Sunni scholars, over the centuries, who do not believe Mutah was ever prohibited and were in favour of it? The Abbasid Caliph Mamun, son of Haroon Rashid allowed Mutah. Most notably, in recent times the renowned scholar Maulana Maududi thought it permissible. Why?