Hi Spock
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif
Trust me, im the most patiotic of all the Pakis…
Why is it that everytime Indians are made aware of the Sh1t thats festering in their country, they have to start picking on Pakistan?
Its true we dont have Hindus living in Pakistan.
Yes minorities are discriminated against.
Yes we have many problems, but thats what they are, OUR problems...
Why dont your people worry about fixing your own country and stop using as as your scape goat.
Now, the Muslims Indian Guppies say there is discrimination, why dont you respond to them without bashing Pakistan (if possible..)
[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**Only in Pakistan Ahmedia have to identify themselves when they cast a vote (that is if Pakistanis ever vote)
Only in Pakistan should a minority declare his religion and faith when he applies for a passport.
Pakistan is a country that is officially formed in the named of one particular religion.
What an irony, they comment on the quality of secularism in India, whose first citizen will soon come from the minority.**
[/quote]
Ask any Ahmedi and they will tell you how much they love Pakistan... Discrimination is there, but that is because it is a sunni majority country. You know, love it or leave it... Also, this dicrimination is not as wide spread as some might think. Its limited to the few fundementalists who scream louder then everyone else. General Musharaf is right when he says there is a silent majority, these people may not agree with the Ahmedi beliefs, but they do not openly discriminate based on these differences in oppinion. The real problem is that they stay silent, while the vocal minority has a field day.
Listen bro, Pakistan is still a VERY young country… Its is plagued with the problems of most other young countries… Look at America, Britain and every any other country…Look at blacks in America, It took years of blood and sweat before they could ever be recognized as American citizens with all the rights guaranteed by the constitution. Look at women in most of the Western countries, they didnt get the right to vote until the early 1900’s…
I think Pakistan will mature eventually, its a matter of time.
Still, I for one am willing to put up with the discrimination. I consider myself Pakistani first.
Asif;
Being in India, it is natural to have overcome by hindu influences. It’s ok boy. It happens.
Now, as far as Ahmedis are concerned, the fact that they do not believe in the finality of prophet Muhammed (pbuh) automatically excludes them for being muslim.
There is nothing wrong with that. If you want to be a muslim, you follow its laws and beliefs. If not, you are not muslim. It does not make Pakistan wrong for declaring them as non-muslims. Its not like China declaring the Falun Gong as an evil cult.
As such, ahmedis are classified as a minority religious group.
Your attempt to consider them muslim for the sake of looking like a liberal muslim to please yr hindu followers/friends is futile.
Learn about Islam a little. Being in India, u need to put in more effort
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
Kuch samjay kia meray hindu…ooops…muslim dost.
Please dont give our country a worse image then it already has.. I have stated time and again that the Pakistan govt has NO right to be declaring who is or isn;t a mulsim.. If the Sunni clergy want to think that way, its fine, as for the govt, they shouldnt be involved…You can think what you want, but to outlaw Ahmedis simply because they differ in their interpretation is unIslamic and inhumane… Im not going to get into an argument with you over this, but the fact is that the Anti Ahmedi laws are totally against all principles upon which Pakistan was based… It took dictators like Zia and pawns like Bhutto to turn us into second class citizens. Lets hope some leader comes along that is brave enough to give Ahmedis and all other minorities the rights they deserve.
[This message has been edited by Adnan Ahmed (edited July 03, 2002).]
Yes, I agree that they should have the same rights as any Pakistani. There are examples where minorities cannot hold the top-most position such as becoming the President - as is the case with Malaysia.
Even is Pakistan chooses this route, there would and should be more than enough opportunities for minorities to take part in all walks of Pakistani Life.
[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
**Yes, I agree that they should have the same rights as any Pakistani. There are examples where minorities cannot hold the top-most position such as becoming the President - as is the case with Malaysia.
Even is Pakistan chooses this route, there would and should be more than enough opportunities for minorities to take part in all walks of Pakistani Life.**
[/quote]
Now your thinking...Fair and equal treatment for all..
[quote]
Originally posted by durango:
Kabir,
**As a Indian Muslim, I would like to ask you a few questions. From the replies you have posted you seem to be more a Pakistani at heart, but staying in India for unavoidable reasons like family, business etc. Other Indian Muslims are welcome to answer
thats not true iam very much a indian by heart and mind
Given the treatment to you, by Hindus in India would you consider going to Pakistan for good?
well first of all i will not go anywhere and if at all i go pakistan will not be my destination
What would be your advise to Indian Muslims. If they are discriminated should they fight for their rights in India or if given a choice relocate to Pakistan where there are almost 99% Muslims.
well the advice i would give is to stay here and fight for thier rights because the number of indian muslims 200 million is just too big and it will be foolish to think that they can immigrate or that thier future lies elsewhere they have to stay right here and work for a better future along with secular hindus. and i say once again the i dont accuse all hindus as being villians or as muslim hatters but this current regime and thier cronies have to be fought tooth and nail.
Do you think Indian Muslims made a bad choice of staying in India after partition.
well its for the secular hindus to answer this question
Do Indian Muslims have a soft corner for Pakistan, or these are just few instance which Hindus exaggerate like supporting Pakistan team in a India-Pakistan cricket match.
its a myth about indian muslims supporting pakitan etc there are elements that do things like bursting crackers etc but thier number is not too big and if indian tamils can support ltte and fiji indians then you should not be surprised if some indians muslims do support pakistan.
Is supporting Pakistan, telling the Hindus that they dont like India?
its extremely foolish of indian muslim to support pakistan because our interest lie here in india and not pakistan. but i can tell you a incident of my childhood during an indian pakistan match there were a few muslim friends who were watching india pakistan matach and there was a equal support for both teams among the group. the match was won by india there was a celebration among the muslims who supported india and the other boys quitely left but a while latter when these celebrating boys went out on streets they were booed heckled and called pakistan by some hindu boys
Do you think it is good for Muslims to raise their kids in a Islamic environment like Pakistan?.
what is a islamic environment? is practicing once faith an islamic enviroment? you want the muslim children not to go madarasa and gurukool ?
Did creation of Pakistan help Indian Muslims? Or because of that, Hindus are always suspicious. How would India would have been if there was no partition on the basis of religion?
well its a very debateable question and before reaching to partition you must go to pre partition days how much are the hindus also responsible for the partition? rss and hindu mahasabhas role in partition? how a moderate congressman called jinnah transformed into a muslim nationalist?
Do Indian Muslims feel closer to Pakistani Muslims than other Indians.
no way indian muslims not not a homogenous group hindus must realise this a bengali muslim is more closer to a bengali hindu and a malyali muslims is to malyali hindu or a gujrati muslim to gujrati hindu
**Is there any future for Muslims in India. Is the situation so bad that you would suggest relocating all Hindus in Pakistan to India and all Muslims from India to Pakistan?
**
[/quote]
well if this current facist govt stays in power the future of indian muslims in indeed bleak. relocating 200 million is prepostorous i think if this anti muslim voilence continues soon there will be a back lash and there will be a deadly cycle of voilence
[This message has been edited by kabir (edited July 05, 2002).]
i am not implying anything over here but just what i have witnessed..
i have seen that the Muslim Indian students normally hang out with Pakistani students.
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**i am not implying anything over here but just what i have witnessed..
i have seen that the Muslim Indian students normally hang out with Pakistani students. **
[/quote]
I have seen that Hindu Punjabi and sikhs generally get along well with Pakistani Punjabis. I have also noticed tha the Gujrati Indians will only hang out with other Gujratis, even at the expense of ignoring other Indians. Its not nationality, its cultural identity.
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**i am not implying anything over here but just what i have witnessed..
i have seen that the Muslim Indian students normally hang out with Pakistani students. **
[/quote]
i agree with you .
indian muslims and hindus dont interact
outside of their country.
religen can do miracles in deviding people.
Question to Indian guppies.. It appears the Godhara deaths were not caused by the mob outside.. Although its possible they may have thrown somthing inside, its also possible that it was started by someone on the train. Advani has already denounced the forensic report, what do you guys think? If it true, then 1000 Indian Muslims died for someting their community wasn;t even responsible for!!
Quote:Adnan Ahmed
Question to Indian guppies.. It appears the Godhara deaths were not caused by the mob outside.. Although its possible they may have thrown somthing inside, its also possible that it was started by someone on the train. Advani has already denounced the forensic report, what do you guys think? If it true, then 1000 Indian Muslims died for someting their community wasn;t even responsible for!!
Adnan,
Irrespective of who started the fire in the train, killing of innocents is not justified.
Say, even if Muslim mobs have burnt the Bogie, do you think it justifies raping of women and killing of children.
Those people who committed these crimes are definitely not Hindu, as these actions go against the basic tenets of the religion. They are no way different to the people elsewhere in the world, who are using religion to kill other innocents.
India, has a long history of communal violence due to large number of minorities, but Gujarat violence is the worst because not only at the number of people dead, but also because of the government's inaction to control the mobs.
Law and Order is the responsibility of the state government. If it fails to discharge its duties then it should be sacked.
In this particular case, there are all chances that the bogies might be burnt from inside, or might be an accident. But, THESE ARE NO EXCUSE FOR THE SLAUGHTER OF THE INNOCENTS. All the culprits whether Hindu or Muslim, should be hanged. The Gujarat Govt. is responsible for the lives of the citizens. It has to answer the present and the future.
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
** i agree with you .
indian muslims and hindus dont interact
outside of their country.
religen can do miracles in deviding people.**
[/quote]
i appreciate ur honest reply..
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
** religen can do miracles in deviding people.**
[/quote]
hmm i think that has got to do more with the history that the Muslims & Hindus share..and in that sense yes it is ironic how history can change the attitude of ppl
for instance when and if(which i really hope so) the political tension b/w Israel & Palestine settles downs, i think its going to take a couple of generations for the youth from both sides to be friend each other..
***I dunno where I'm going. I dunno what for. But I'm making progress.
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
** i agree with you .
indian muslims and hindus dont interact
outside of their country.
**
[/quote]
i appreciate ur honest reply..
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
** religen can do miracles in deviding people.**
[/quote]
hmm i think that has got to do more with the history that the Muslims & Hindus share..and in that sense yes it is ironic how history can change the attitude of ppl
for instance when and if(which i really hope so) the political tension b/w Israel & Palestine settles downs, i think its going to take a couple of generations for the youth from both sides to be friend each other..
***I dunno where I'm going. I dunno what for. But I'm making progress.
[quote]
Originally posted by Victory:
**Quote:Adnan Ahmed
Question to Indian guppies.. It appears the Godhara deaths were not caused by the mob outside.. Although its possible they may have thrown somthing inside, its also possible that it was started by someone on the train. Advani has already denounced the forensic report, what do you guys think? If it true, then 1000 Indian Muslims died for someting their community wasn;t even responsible for!!
Adnan,
Irrespective of who started the fire in the train, killing of innocents is not justified.
Say, even if Muslim mobs have burnt the Bogie, do you think it justifies raping of women and killing of children.
Those people who committed these crimes are definitely not Hindu, as these actions go against the basic tenets of the religion. They are no way different to the people elsewhere in the world, who are using religion to kill other innocents.
India, has a long history of communal violence due to large number of minorities, but Gujarat violence is the worst because not only at the number of people dead, but also because of the government's inaction to control the mobs.
Law and Order is the responsibility of the state government. If it fails to discharge its duties then it should be sacked.
In this particular case, there are all chances that the bogies might be burnt from inside, or might be an accident. But, THESE ARE NO EXCUSE FOR THE SLAUGHTER OF THE INNOCENTS. All the culprits whether Hindu or Muslim, should be hanged. The Gujarat Govt. is responsible for the lives of the citizens. It has to answer the present and the future.
**
[/quote]
Still, doesn;t it bother you that the vice PM was so quick in rejecting the findings, Even though it was an impartial investigation? If there is evidence that the Muslims of that town were innocent of whatever the govt and everyone else has been accusing them of doing, then the VicePM should take it more seriously. Especially considering this is related to the reputation of 200 million muslims who happen to be Indian citizens??
[quote]
Originally posted by Victory:
**Quote:Adnan Ahmed
Question to Indian guppies.. It appears the Godhara deaths were not caused by the mob outside.. Although its possible they may have thrown somthing inside, its also possible that it was started by someone on the train. Advani has already denounced the forensic report, what do you guys think? If it true, then 1000 Indian Muslims died for someting their community wasn;t even responsible for!!
Adnan,
Irrespective of who started the fire in the train, killing of innocents is not justified.
Say, even if Muslim mobs have burnt the Bogie, do you think it justifies raping of women and killing of children.
Those people who committed these crimes are definitely not Hindu, as these actions go against the basic tenets of the religion. They are no way different to the people elsewhere in the world, who are using religion to kill other innocents.
India, has a long history of communal violence due to large number of minorities, but Gujarat violence is the worst because not only at the number of people dead, but also because of the government's inaction to control the mobs.
Law and Order is the responsibility of the state government. If it fails to discharge its duties then it should be sacked.
In this particular case, there are all chances that the bogies might be burnt from inside, or might be an accident. But, THESE ARE NO EXCUSE FOR THE SLAUGHTER OF THE INNOCENTS. All the culprits whether Hindu or Muslim, should be hanged. The Gujarat Govt. is responsible for the lives of the citizens. It has to answer the present and the future.
**
[/quote]
Now im sure the Hindu guppies will correct me on this, but doesn;t Hindu Philosophy state tht we should do what we must and live in the momment, leaving fate in the hands of the gods? Isn't this how Arjuna is convinced that battling his kinsmen is justified? He must do what is right because it is meant to be this way? In the same sense, couldnt we justify the murder of the muslims??? I doubt Hindus would preach something that would mean the deaths of hundreds...
Im no expert on Hindu philosophy, so please clarify...
Or not...Whatever