A question for indian muslims in this forum

[quote]
Originally posted by Andhra:
**>>but what about people like bal thackray who is called hindu hriday samrat (king of hindu hearts)<<

Well, what about him? I am a Hindu and Bal Thackeray is not MY 'Hriday Samrat'. I think he is a stupid jerk. Now what?
No point in trying to convince you Kabir, but let me try any way.
All Bal THackeray wants is a minority to convince the majority that all their problems are due to the minority community.
If you recall his history, he used to target South Indians. That didn't work out too well. So it is Muslims now.
And I don't buy this crap about Maharashtra being the heart of Hindu Fundamentalism and all that. Bal Thackeray if you want to know is far removed from the likes of Savarkar, hegdewar and others as far as I am concerned.**
[/quote]

Andhra .. anna the last govt in maharashtra was shiv sena. bjp has come to power in delhi just because of thier anti muslim agenda it was the babri masjid issue that brought bjp to power and unfortunatly india is going the way germany was in 1940's the make up these organisations are just like the facist parties of 1940s and you must remember that there was a large german population that brought these parties to power and they are also responsible for the genocide as much as hitler is

Yo, cool down, brother!

I think the part of the guy claiming he got more marks than a Pakistani Canadian has been misinterpreted. I was actually trying to say the exact opposite of what you understood. I was trying to say that I am a Pakistani mainly educated in the Pakistani education system and I did consistently better than ppl who came out of the Indian system while we did high school together.

I know it's a bit lame, but then again the counterpoint can only be as good as the point itself.

Anyways, I think you misunderstood my post brother.

FY1,

in your post it is hard to figure out which one is your statement.

sambrialian you are right. now I have edited my post. thank you

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Kabir, Don't exagerate. India going the Greman way. For your infomation Indians both HIndus and Muslims have neither the hardwork nor unity of Germans.
Anyway since you were good enough to make that assertion, show me an instance where the Government of India OFFICIALLY, LEGALLY discriminated against Muslims.
For example is there a law that allows Non-Muslims to buy Muslim businesses? Or a law requiring Muslims should wear distinctive clothing to identify them?
Infact if any thing it is the other way round. As it stands today, a Kashmiri Muslim can buy property anywhere in India but the other way is not allowed. One of the so-called 'Special Staus' benefits Kashmir has!!
andha_qanoon bhai, there may be an occassional Pakistan-Puja but by large Indian Muslims are loyal.
I think the problem here is Pakistanis like to think Indian Muslims are suppressed. Unfortunately that seems to be the only way they can justify Pakistan's creation.

Meray payare Andhra, I disagree with your "only few Indian Muslims indulge in Pakistan-Puja" (whatever the hell Pakistan-Puja is) statement.

In the 12-13 odd years I spent in Saudi Arabia, my family got to know and befriend a lot of Indian Muslim families. And I can safely say that I don't recall any of them doing Baharat-Puja.

In fact, I remember watching a Pak-India match in the 97 (maybe 98) Sharjah series with one of my Father's Indian friends. I believe he was supporting Pakistan in that match. If cricket loyalties don't mean anything in that region anymore, I'm dangerously out of sync with the suncontinent. The person who I speak of went to Aligarh and is an Engineer. His Khandani Hawaili (wherever it is, my Bharati geography is very limited) housed the likes of the Quaid (Jinnah) during the partition times. And even now he does a lot more stuff in Bharat than just supporting Pakistan in cricket matches, if you get my drift. Anyways, we'll leave that one alone.

My dear sambrialian don’t incriminate your co-religionists beofre a Hindu

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You see, Muslims who manage to get as far as Saudi are different. I am talking about the MUslims who live and work in India.
Yes, once they step outside some of them seem to snap. I guess they are confused. They have a special cross to bear in the form of Pakistan you see

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On the one hand they find India and Hinduism not totally palatable and on the other hand no doubt they find Arab/ Pakistan like countries too strict.
If you want to find out more about it, read VS Naipaul’s ‘India A THousand Mutinies Now’.
He talks about the Nawab of Lucknow, who tried Pakistan and came back. He was practically forced to pray

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Ohh Andhra Bhai !! You spoilt his dream. Let him dream and feel happy about it.

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According to his logic all Muslims in India are Pro-Pakistan - Even APJ Abdul Kalam, Paramveer Chakra Abdul Hamid and Not to forget WIPRO Sultan Azim bhai. He

I do it more often than not.

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AK

Yeah, I should be more careful (I guess) but do tell me if you have any plans to retaliate against the afore-mentioned man. And also tell me how exactly you will decipher his identity amongst all the Muslims that live in Bharat. Maybe then I can call you Andhra Holmes.

I will agree partly with you on that ppl (Muslim Indians) living in the Gulf have more anti-Bharat sentiment. BUT there has to be a reason why these ppl all of a sudden become more expressive of their feelings. You can't just say that there is something in the water or air in the mideast which breeds anti-Bharatism.

As far as the Nawabs are concerned, I really wouldn't trust their word.

In a documentary on Jinnah, a member of the Royal family of Bhawalpur or Bhawalnagar (again my lack of geography knowledge is evident) was interviewed. The woman (or Nawabzadi) was very anti-Bharat despite quite a few decades having passed between now and the partition. Eventually, the interviewer asked her what she left behind when she left her state. She replied with something to the effect that she left behind ONLY everything in material possessions. The utterly dismissive manner in which she mentioned everything she lost was very surprising. How do you explain that? She was a Nawabzadi, she wasn't being oppressed directly but she left.

Despite the above incident, these most of these Nawab ppl tend to be selfish. They'll live wherever they think they can have all their "aish" and masti. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what my impression of Nawabs and Princes is.

FYI: LOL!! As all good Pakistanis know that the white in our Flag represents the Minorities in Pakistan. Paaji, danda vi the thadi uthae lagaae hoheya aye!

Yeah, I should be more careful (I guess) but do tell me if you have any plans to retaliate against the afore-mentioned man<<

Don’t worry we use Indian ‘Jadoo’ to make them disppear. Like the ones who attacked the American Centre and Parliament!!
But yes, what about Asif Bhai’s comments. If your argument is correct all these patriotic Muslims wouldn’t have served India like they did.
Abdul Kalam could live anywhere in the World comfortably you know

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As for the Air in the Middle East being different, your sarcasm could be actually right. Why else is religious fanaticism alive only in the Middle-East.
Is it a spin-off of the Palestine Issue or what?
Since you seem knowledgable about Middle-East, tell us more about this ‘Rafeeq’ or whatever word that is used for Desis. Were you ever called that?

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[quote]
Originally posted by sambrialian:
**Yeah, I should be more careful (I guess) but do tell me if you have any plans to retaliate against the afore-mentioned man. And also tell me how exactly you will decipher his identity amongst all the Muslims that live in Bharat. Maybe then I can call you Andhra Holmes.

I will agree partly with you on that ppl (Muslim Indians) living in the Gulf have more anti-Bharat sentiment. BUT there has to be a reason why these ppl all of a sudden become more expressive of their feelings. You can't just say that there is something in the water or air in the mideast which breeds anti-Bharatism.

As far as the Nawabs are concerned, I really wouldn't trust their word.

In a documentary on Jinnah, a member of the Royal family of Bhawalpur or Bhawalnagar (again my lack of geography knowledge is evident) was interviewed. The woman (or Nawabzadi) was very anti-Bharat despite quite a few decades having passed between now and the partition. Eventually, the interviewer asked her what she left behind when she left her state. She replied with something to the effect that she left behind ONLY everything in material possessions. The utterly dismissive manner in which she mentioned everything she lost was very surprising. How do you explain that? She was a Nawabzadi, she wasn't being oppressed directly but she left.

Despite the above incident, these most of these Nawab ppl tend to be selfish. They'll live wherever they think they can have all their "aish" and masti. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what my impression of Nawabs and Princes is. **
[/quote]

Sabrilian,

your Experience on Indian Muslim being Pro Pakistan is based on One Incident of your father's freind.who might be someone like KABIR.
And my Expereince is based on my life in India where I grew up and did my studies. and just for Your Info presently I live in USA not in India and here I am not forced to LOve my country (As u think all Muslims in India are forced to do becouse that justifies Pakitans creation as Andhra said very well).

an I have my UNCLES working in GULF and more they see treatment of SAUDIs and Pakistanis more they LOVE INDIA.... !!!!!


Jiyo Aur Jeene Do!!!

andha_qanoon bhai, seriously Pakistanis do seem to believe that Muslims are harassed on a regular basis in India.
I met a Pakistani here.(He is a good friend now). One of the first questions he asked was ‘Do You get Halal Meat in India?’

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His tone was more like 'Are Muslims ALLOWED to eat Hala Meat;!!!

Dear All,

It would be improper and a lie If I or any other Indian Muslim denies that Muslims face any problem in India, because they do. However it would be equally improper to say that Muslims in India are Pro-Pakistani or Anti India. If that is the case then just Imagine that there are 120 millions of them and If all (or majority) of them are Anti India then every day there will be a Bomb Blast. The major problem the muslims have been facing in last couple of years is the emergence fo Radical Parties. Which causes lot of insecurity among our community and some weaker souls turn anti-national (may god shower mercy and wisdom upon them). Apart from that I dont think we have any problems like descrimination in jobs etc..

Sambi Bhai - Dont you have similar problems in Pakistan (Ahmedia/Shia/Sunni) ? Dont you have your own MQM and Sipah-e-Sabas (or whatever). Do you call all of them Pro-India ? Dont you have open descrimination against minorities ? Do you consider all those who oppose blasphemy laws as Anti-Pakistani ? Didn't you have problem in East Pakistan (Which you prefer to call Indian Conspiracy) ?

I must say that Indian Muslims who decided to remain in India took a brave decision and most of us stick by it because we know it is our chosen destiny, it is our chosen life and it is where we will be buried. You are free to think whatever you want but the fact will always be that Our Lives are as good or as bad as yours.


AK

Look here people! I should make this clear that it doesn't affect my sleep whether a Muslim living in Bharat loves Bharat or not.

First Andhra:

Yeah the problem with the parliment attacks and all the hijackings is that normally they are staged. So that's not a fair comparison.

This "fanaticism" that you talk about, I thought existed in all Muslim countries as per CNN.

The Rafeeq term, I know gets used in SA a lot. I never had it used on me but I did get into a lot of fights with Saudi kids. It all depends on the people you deal with. My Father had Saudis working with him who were absolute jerks. But then he also had colleagues who told us strictly to live at their places when we visited Makkah and Madinah for Umrah. So, it's tough to characterise Saudis as uneducated racist brutes as you so badly want to. Man, my love only grows for you with every single post especially with that trademark smily icon of yours.

Andha_Qanoon:

As much as I find it futile to say anything to you, I will answer you post because you directly addressed it to me. I have a lot more incidents that I can quote if you'd like. But that's not the point! If you guys have good experiences, good for you! My congrats man!

The creation of Pakistan, I'll deal with afterwards.

Akif:

I agree with most of your post. I completely agree with your oft expressed opinion that we Muslims tend to divert our shortcomings and blame others. I would much rather have Pakistanis (and Muslims) instead of cursing America trying to establish why we are lagging behind the leading nations. We need some introspection. Regarding your specific queries. Here's my take on these issues:

1)Yes, we have the problems that you mentioned. I believe if a person is a Pakistani, the person deserves to live as a citizen of the state in peace. But as far as Ahmedis are concerned, this claim that they make of being Muslims is what causes the most problems for us Muslims and eventually them. The Shia-Sunni situation is very sad and I have nothing to say further on that.

2) MQM and Sipa-whatever all deserve to be banned and only cause trouble. Kill 'em all, I say! Start with Altaf Hussain. India or not, I don't care!

3) What discrimination? I haven't seen any, I went to a very prestigious school in Pakistan and we had Christians there. Never had any problems! Two Christian brothers were actually very popular. One could dance very well, the other was a great sportsman. My Mamun had a very good Hindu friend in his college.

4) The blasphemy law is in theory not wrong but is being used improperly. Maybe they should step up the amount of evidence required before convicting someone.

5) Of course we had problems in East Pakistan and let me be the first one to aadmit that we were unfair to the now-Bangladeshis. Oh sorry, but why blame me and the common people. The people to blame are Bhutto and Mujeeburrehman who were concered about securing their "kursis" and of course Bharat. I mean heck you guys blame us for Kashmir right? So, why can't we return the favour?

Regarding India:

I have talked to Andhra earlier about this issue. I personally think that the theoretically the idea of Pakistan was right. However, the fact that not all Muslims joined Pakistan (by choice or circumstances) really makes the whole thing shaky. From a selfish point of view, it pains me to see the Taj Mahal (the work of our co-religionists) only on TV and not being able to visit it. A lot of what India is cashing in on as its culture has been contributed by the Muslims. So, why should we as Pakistanis have to forfeit everything that we have a hand in building, be it architecture, society, culture, etc.

I only have respect for Indian Muslims for their courage because they have endured a lot whatever the cause maybe. But most importantly, under the banner of Islam, we are brothers and frankly that is the most important identity that we have as Muslims. Everything else is temporary, the boundaries, nationality, race and colour.

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But most importantly, under the banner of Islam, we are brothers and frankly that is the most important identity that we have as Muslims. Everything else is temporary, the boundaries, nationality, race and colour.

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Thats is where I beg to differ and that is where I see the problem is.If every Indian Muslim see himself as Indian First and then try to solve their problem they will be successfull in solving problem.Similarly If every pakistani brother thinks of himself a Pakistani First and try to solve their own problem before looking into all the muslims problem all over ,I think they will be better off.

Problem with the whole UMAH has been that they everyone tried solve every damn problem on the Earth and end up making everyone as enemy.

You got to have nationalist values firsta nd then relegion.

I know You will differ with me on this point ,but thats my point.

I am Indian first and then Muslim and I dont see any conflict between the two.

Jiyo Aur Jeene Do!!!

[This message has been edited by andha_qanoon (edited January 30, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by Asif_k:
**Dear All,

It would be improper and a lie If I or any other Indian Muslim denies that Muslims face any problem in India, because they do. However it would be equally improper to say that Muslims in India are Pro-Pakistani or Anti India. If that is the case then just Imagine that there are 120 millions of them and If all (or majority) of them are Anti India then every day there will be a Bomb Blast. The major problem the muslims have been facing in last couple of years is the emergence fo Radical Parties. Which causes lot of insecurity among our community and some weaker souls turn anti-national (may god shower mercy and wisdom upon them). Apart from that I dont think we have any problems like descrimination in jobs etc..

Sambi Bhai - Dont you have similar problems in Pakistan (Ahmedia/Shia/Sunni) ? Dont you have your own MQM and Sipah-e-Sabas (or whatever). Do you call all of them Pro-India ? Dont you have open descrimination against minorities ? Do you consider all those who oppose blasphemy laws as Anti-Pakistani ? Didn't you have problem in East Pakistan (Which you prefer to call Indian Conspiracy) ?

I must say that Indian Muslims who decided to remain in India took a brave decision and most of us stick by it because we know it is our chosen destiny, it is our chosen life and it is where we will be buried. You are free to think whatever you want but the fact will always be that Our Lives are as good or as bad as yours.

**
[/quote]

Well Said Asif. Could not have said it better.


Jiyo Aur Jeene Do!!!

I am Indian first and then Muslim and I dont see any conflict between the two.<<
Well, that’s why you are an Indian and all the best to you.
Atleast you won’t see Muslims killing Muslims and Muslims getting killed for Arabs if you stick to India

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[quote]
Originally posted by sambrialian:
*Yeah the problem with the parliment attacks and all the hijackings is that normally they are staged. *
[/quote]

Do you have any proof of what you are saying or is it just a counter allegation ??

[quote]
Akif:
1)Yes, we have the problems that you mentioned. I believe if a person is a Pakistani, the person deserves to live as a citizen of the state in peace.

[/quote]

One thing I wanted to make it clear that I listed all those problems not because It makes me feel better but because I wanted to convey you that We Muslims have problem everywhere, even in a Land which was supposedly created for us.And because of those problems one should not think that all of us become anti-National or Gaddars. And my friend Killing them all is not a solution, you will never be able to kill them all. World is full of examples. The only way to deal with this is to educate our people. All other problems will be solved.

[quote]
** What discrimination? I haven't seen any, I went to a very prestigious school in Pakistan and we had Christians there. Never had any problems! **
[/quote]

Do you mean to say that There is no descrimination on the basis of religion in Pakistan ? And Hindus/Christians/Ahmedias have equal rights to that of Muslims ?

[quote]
..but why blame me and the common people. The people to blame are Bhutto and Mujeeburrehman who were concered about securing their "kursis" and of course Bharat. I mean heck you guys blame us for Kashmir right? So, why can't we return the favour?
[/quote]

I dont blame you or Pakistani people but as a citizen you are partially responsible for your leaders's deeds. Also For Kashmir, we hardly blame Pakistan, we blame Pt. Nehru more than that. In India, Pakistan is rearely blamed for any of its problems, It is the policies of Nehru/Indira/Rajeev which created most of our problems - Be it Kashmir/China/LTTE/Khalistan/Assam anything. You can ask any Indian this. Pakistan is blamed for the So Called 'FREEDOM STRUGGLE' in Kashmir.

[quote]
** it pains me to see the Taj Mahal (the work of our co-religionists) only on TV and not being able to visit it. **
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First of all, You can always visit India to see the Taj, Indian Govt has never banned people from Pakistan who want to visit India. If you really want to see the Taj, This Khaadim welcomes you at his Gareeb Khaana in Delhi and will personally take you to Agra.

[quote]
*A lot of what India is cashing in on as its culture has been contributed by the Muslims. So, why should we as Pakistanis have to forfeit everything that we have a hand in building, be it architecture, society, culture, etc. *
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I dont think you have any right to ask a single penny from India. Pakistan got everything it has asked for, even the remaining 55 million (the main reason Gandhi was killed). Our ancestors paid in every form 'Money', 'Blood', 'Land', 'Honour'(In some cases twice). Regd. Architecture, You got your own share of architecture and History, If you dont know how to take care of those then it is you problem. But Dont tell us that we owe you or your country anything because We owe you nothing.

Take Care and may god bless you all


AK

. From a selfish point of view, it pains me to see the Taj Mahal (the work of our co-religionists) only on TV and not being able to visit it. A lot of what India is cashing in on as its culture has been contributed by the Muslims.<<
Yeah that includes Ajanta Caves, South Indian Temples, All the forts in Rajasthan,Sikhism, Budhism, Jainism, Mahabharata, Ramayana etc.,
Yeah, Muslims contributed a lot!!