Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Dude the above post shows your ignorance… I asked you a question and you used is an excuse to blame shias… when it was just me asking… I read about ansar and mashajirs back home in islamiat and living here in states for awhile it was just mixed up and wanted to recall if mahajireen were the one who migrated from Mecca or was it Ansar.. and wanted to clarify it .. but oh some speechless guy who can’t defend his own believes needs some excuse to mudsling on others which is exactly what you did… I asked you a question.. as a talib-e-ilm and you used is an excuse to mud sling shias… thats so pathetic of you.. I not an scholar by profession… how sick of you dude… and no the issues have not been clarified read by second last post I have asked 4 question and all the answers I have recieved were some lame accusations to ignore the fact you yourself have nothing to defend your weak faith… Also the accusation of innovation… don’t just blame us shias for it.. I quoted hadith from Sahih Bukhari… blame your own sahih books buddy…
How pathetic when will you learn to be man and not just come up with lame accusations well its ok I can see the struggle you and Ibn sadique are going through… May Allah show you the right path.. how lost souls you are.. Ibn Sadique himself quoted that Mawiya was wrong when he led to murder of several muslims and you lost souls regard him Ameer ul Momineen why am I not suprsied you guyz are having so hard time defending your own believes when you yourself claim your Ameer ul Momineen was wrong when he led killing of several muslims.. May allah protect us from shar of your wrong ameer ul Momineen and their followers Ameen…
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Texan – Please don’t misquote me. I am not in position to judge deeds of any Companion of the Prophet (saw) [May Allah (swt) be pleased with them all.] I am quoting myself again.
There is subtle but very important difference in what I stated and what you allege that I stated. See for your self.
I will never put myself in a position where I have to try to judge the actions of Ahlul Bayt (raa) and the Sahabah (raa). I will only state what the scholars have said.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
**Texan Dude ** – Come back to the real world and stop deluding yourself that you are making anybody sweat or struggle with your rants. Half of your posts are just full of illusionary emotional rants and name calling. By calling me or anyone else “ignorant” or “lost souls” maybe doing wonders for your morale but cannot convince anyone of your arguments. Maybe you are just convincing yourself.
Time and again it has been shown to you from your own books that your Imams held Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and Hz. Umar (ra) in very high esteem [see below once more]:
Once, the wife of Imam Jaffar as Sadiq asked him about Abu Bakr and Umar.
Imam Jaffar as Sadiq (ra) expressed his support to Abu Bakr and Umar.
He replied, "I support them”.
Then he said to his wife,” you should support them also."
His wife replied, “So should I say to my creator when I meet Him, that it is your order to support Abu Bakr and Umar.”
Once, Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (ra) while sitting with his companions, praised Abu Bakr by calling him the truthful (“as-Siddiq”). One of his companions got astonished by this remark and inquired if he (the Imam) really meant what he said. Upon this Imam al-Baqir replied, “yes Abu Bakr is the truthful and whoever does not give this attribution to him, then may God make that person(who did not give the attribute) helpless on the day of resurrection” Source: Kashful Ghumamah, vol.2, p.174]
Now don’t tell me that your imams got it wrong or blame it to your books because the above does not fit in with your ideology!
You did not know that Hz. Ali (ra) had got his youngest daughter,Lady Umm Kulthum (ra) married to Hz. Umar Al Khattab (ra), did you? And I had to show that it has been discussed over here at the following thread: http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthre...ghlight=Kulthum
All the references provided there are from your books, with narrations from your imams.
Go ahead and state that your imams and books have got it all wrong as the above does not fit in with your ideology.
Earlier you had posted the following hadith from Sahih Bukhari “Fatimah is a part of me. Whoever makes her angry makes me angry.” [References: Sunni references: - Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English.] to show that Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) had earned Fatimah (ra)’s wrath in dealing with issue of Fadak.
At the following thread I showed from your books narration of your imam that Hz. Ali (ra) also earned Hz. Fatimah (ra)’s anger.
In response you got uptight that I had written that the narration is in the book that you hold dear.
I had asked you if you were going to use the same standard of justice for Hz.Ali (ra) as you use against Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) for making Hz. Fatimah (ra) angry?
No response from your side but only blustering rants that I had somehow insulted Hz. Fatimah (ra) by stating that she could be mistaken by being angry with Hz. Abu Bakr (ra).
Let me reinstate that Ahlul Sunnah apart from the prophet (saw) do not hold any one infallible, whether that person is Hz. Abu Bakr (ra), Hz. Umar (ra), Hz. Uthman (ra), Hz Ali (ra), Hz.Fatimah (ra) or any other person.
By not holding them infallible it doesn’t meant that they are not pious and are sinful. Far from it. All it means that they can make unintentional mistakes and at times can be wrong by not having up to date information.
I am opening a new thread on Infallibility of Imams; please have your input by quoting the Quran showing that apart from the Prophet (saw) if any other people are infallibles.
It took at least 8 reminders to get a response form you to comment on the various ayahs of the Quran that have heaped praises and promised ultimate success in the hereafter to the Prophet’s companions [May Allah (swt) be pleased with them all].
And your response was:
Dear **Texan Dude ** – Leave the intentions of the heart to Allah (swt) and He will judge everybody as it is ONLY HIM who knows the intentions of the heart. It’s not your job. Just believe what the Quran states, and that should suffice you.
Once, Imam Shafii (rahimullah) asked some Jews: “Who are the most **honoured ** people in your Nation (Ummah)?”
They replied: “The Companions of Moses.”
He turned to the Christians and asked: “Who are the most **honoured ** people in your Nation (Ummah)?”
They replied: “The Companions of Jesus.”
Imam Shafii (rahimullah) then asked the Shias: “Who are the most **dishonoured ** people in your Nation (Ummah)?”
They replied: “The Companions of Muhammad.”
I thank Allah (swt) that it is only 10% -15% of the Ummah who hold on to this view. – AlHamdulilah for that.
There is no problem with the above narrations at all.
You should be aware that Hz. Ali stated the following too:
……………With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, **namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. ** The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah’s hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf…………….Nahjul Balagha 126
Imam Ali bin Abu Talib (r.a.) said: “The Messenger of Allah called me and told me: ‘You are alike with Jesus, Jews hated him till they slandered his mother, and Christians loved him till they put him in the position that is not for him.’ With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. Verily, I am not a prophet, and there is nothing revealed to me. But I work with the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of his Prophet (pbuh) as much as I can. So whatever I have asked you in regard of obeying Allah, it is your duty to obey me whether you like it or not.” [Imam Ahmad]
You can check all our books (that we hold dear) are full of praises for Hz. Ali (ra) and the rest of Ahlul Bayt (raa). In fact we have much more members into Ahlul Bayt (raa) than what you have. We love Hz. Ali (ra) but not at expense of anybody else.
Personally, I have one son and have named him Ali. I hope and pray that my son lives up to my expectations of this great name of a great Companion of the Prophet (saw) – Ameen
Now I will address the points raised by you individually in each post.
This is what Imam Hassan (ra) had to say after his abdication of Khilafaat in favour of Hz. Muawiyah (ra).
“O people of Iraq, I am glad to be rid of you for three reasons: your killing of my father, your stabbing of me, and your plundering of my possessions.” ref:-Ta’rikh al-Rusul wa al-Muluk by Abu Ja’far Muhammad b. Jarir al-Tabari (d. 310 A.H.), “Events of the Year 40” pg. 9
The above sounds very similar to what Imam Ali (ra) had to say to his followers:
To prepare the people for fighting with the people of Syria (ash-Sham)( Amir al-mu’minin said:
Woe to you. I am tired of rebuking you. Do you accept this worldly life in place of the next life? Or disgrace in place of dignity? When I invite you to fight your enemy your eyes revolve as though you are in the clutches of death, and in the senselessness of last moments. My pleadings are not understood by you and you remain stunned. It is as though your hearts are affected with madness so that you do not understand. You have lost my confidence for good. Neither are you a support for me to lean upon, nor a means to honour and victory. Your example is that of the camels whose protector has disappeared, so that if they are collected from one side they disperse away from the other side.
By Allah, how bad are you for igniting flames of war. **You are intrigued against but do not intrigue (against the enemy). ** Your boundaries are decreasing but you do not get enraged over it. Those against you do not sleep but you are unmindful. By Allah, those who leave matters one for the other are subdued. By Allah, I believed about you that if battle rages and death hovers around you, you will cut away from the son of Abi Talib like the severing of head from the trunk.
By Allah, he who makes it possible for his adversary to so overpower him as to remove the flesh (from his bones), crush his bones and cut his skin into pieces, then it means that his helplessness is great and his heart surrounded within the sides of his chest is weak. You may become like this if you wish. But for me, before I allow it I shall use my sharp edged swords of al-Mushrafiyyah which would cut as under the bones of the head and fly away arms and feet. Thereafter, Allah will do whatever He wills.
O’ people, I have a right over you and you have a right over me. As for your right over me, that is to counsel you, to pay you your dues fully, to teach you that you may not remain ignorant and instruct you in behaviourism that you may act upon. As for my right over you, it is fulfilment of (the obligation of) allegiance, well-wishing in presence or in absence, response when I call you and obedience when I order you
Part of Sermon 27 Nahjul Balagha - Showing how fed up and frustrated Hz. Ali (ra) with his followers.
"O’ you semblance of men, not men, your intelligence is that of children and your wit is that of the occupants of the curtained canopies (women kept in seclusion from the outside world). I wish I had not seen you nor known you. By Allah, this acquaintance has brought about shame and resulted in repentance.
May Allah fight you! You have filled my heart with pus and loaded my bosom with rage. You made me drink mouthful of grief one after the other. You shattered my counsel by disobeying and leaving me so much so that Quraysh started saying that the son of Abi Talib is brave but does not know (tactics of) war.
Allah bless them ! Is any one of them fiercer in war and more older in it than I am? I rose for it although yet within twenties, and here I am, have crossed over sixty, but one who is not obeyed can have no opinion."
If you so require, I can get plenty of such stuff where Imam Ali (ra) is rebuking his followers as cowards and worthless.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Battle of Uhud and Hz. Uthman (ra)
The site [link you have provided above is of a venomously rabid anti-Sahabah Website just like some extreme salafi site against the shia] It’s like giving a link to Ku Klax Klan Website and trying to look for Virtues of a Blackman.
The following is the first attack on the noble personality of Hz. Uthman bin Affan (ra) from that site.
And it mockingly quotes the following hadith from Sahih Bukhari to downgrade Hz. Uthman (ra) ignoring their own ignorance. Quran and historical facts have absolved Hz. Uthman of these mindless allegations. AlHamdulilah for that.
Narrated 'Uthman bin Mauhab: A man came to perform the Hajj to (Allah’s) House. Seeing some people sitting, he said, “Who are these sitting people?” Somebody said, “They are the people of Quraish.” He said, “Who is the old man?” They said, “Ibn 'Umar.” He went to him and said, “I want to ask you about something; will you tell me about it? I ask you with the respect due to the sanctity of this (Sacred) House, do you know that 'Uthman bin 'Affan fled on the day of Uhud?” Ibn 'Umar said, “Yes.” He said, “Do you know that he (i.e. 'Uthman) was absent from the Badr (battle) and did not join it?” Ibn 'Umar said, “Yes.” He said, “Do you know that he failed to be present at the Ridwan Pledge of allegiance (i.e. pledge of allegiance at Hudaibiya) and did not witness it?” Ibn 'Umar replied, “Yes,” He then said, “Allahu-Akbar!” Ibn 'Umar said, "Come along; I will inform you and explain to you what you have asked. As for the flight (of 'Uthman) on the day of Uhud, I testify that Allah forgave him. As regards his absence from the Badr (battle), he was married to the daughter of Allah’s Apostle and she was ill, so the Prophet said to him, ‘You will have such reward as a man who has fought the Badr battle will get, and will also have the same share of the booty.’ As for his absence from the Ridwan pledge of allegiance if there had been anybody more respected by the Meccans than 'Uthman bin 'Affan, the Prophet would surely have sent that man instead of 'Uthman. So the Prophet sent him (i.e. 'Uthman to Mecca) and the Ridwan Pledge of allegiance took place after 'Uthman had gone to Mecca. The Prophet raised his right hand saying. 'This is the hand of ‘Uthman,’ and clapped it over his other hand and said, “This is for ‘Uthman.’” Ibn 'Umar then said (to the man), “Go now, after taking this information.”
It is true that Hz. Uthman (ra) did not participate in the Battle of Badr. He was given a special leave by the Prophet (saw) himself. Prophet’s REAL daughter Hz. Ruqaiyah (ra), who was married to Hz. Uthman (ra), had been very seriously ill and the Prophet (saw) left Hz. Uthman (ra) behind to take care of her.
The Prophet (saw) also kept apart the share from the booty gained at Badr for Hz. Uthman (ra).
Similarly the Prophet (saw) did not allow Hz. Ali (ra) to participate in the Battle of Tabuk which was one of the most arduous of all expeditions undertaken by the Prophet (saw) . Are you going to hold this against Hz. Ali (ra).
Let me give you a little background to the Battle of Uhud.
You should know that at the time of Uhud there were two parties in the Prophet’ (saw)s camp. One party was of the BELIEVERS led by the Prophet (saw) of Allah (swt), of about 700 people who reached the battlefield and joined the fighting (the people who fled away did so after commencing of the battle). The other party was led by Abdullah bin Ubay who withdrew half way on the way to Uhud compromising of about 300 people.
The Prophet (saw) had placed about 50 Sahabah (raa) archers on a hillock to defend the Muslim army from the rear. Initially the Muslims routed the enemy who fled the battle field leaving all their goods behind. The archers seeing that the enemy had fled and that others were collecting the booty left their positions to collect the booty thus exposing the Muslims from attack at the rear.
This was negligence on their part but not deliberate disregard of Prophet’s (saw) instruction. They were under the impression that the war was over. It was only the brilliance of Khalid bin Al Waleed at the time head of Quraish cavalry that saved the day for the Quraish.
There are many ayah of Surah Imran relating to the events of battle of Uhud. If you read the ayah 152 you can’t help but notice that Allah (swt) out His immense Mercy forgave all those who disobeyed and those who fled.
Now read the following ayah in respect of Battle of Uhud regarding those who did not heed the Prophet (saw) and those who fled from the battle when it was falsely announced that the Prophet had been killed.
*Allah verily made good His promise unto you when ye routed them by His leave, until (the moment) when your courage failed you, and ye disagreed about the order and ye disobeyed, after He had shown you that for which ye long. Some of you desired the world, and some of you desired the Hereafter. Therefore He made you flee from them, that He might try you. Yet now He hath forgiven you. Allah is a Lord of Kindness to believers. * 3:152
Allah (swt) out of his immense Mercy had forgiven those who ‘ran for the booty’ and those who fled from the battle. You got problem with that.
This is one of the silliest statements made – sheer ignorance.
Hz. Uthman (ra) had been sent to the Quraish by the Prophet (saw) as his emissary.
It was feared the Hz. Uthman (ra) had been killed by the Quraish.
The Prophet (saw) took the oath from all the Companions (raa) to fight and avenge for Hz. Uthman’s murder by the Quraish.
The Prophet (saw) took the Pledge of behalf of Hz. Uthman (ra) himself (What an honour for Hz. Uthman (ra)).
*Lo! those who swear allegiance unto thee (Muhammad), swear allegiance only unto Allah. The Hand of Allah is above their hands. So whosoever breaketh his oath, breaketh it only to his soul’s hurt; while whosoever keepeth his covenant with Allah, on him will He bestow immense reward. * 48:10
Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance unto thee beneath the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down peace of reassurance on them, and hath rewarded them with a near victory; 48:18
Another proof that Allah was Pleased with the Companions (raa). And yet you despise them.
Hadith and historical books have recorded all those ‘Prominent ones’ who took part in the Hudhaybia Pledge with the Prophet (saw).
It is a fact that Allah (swt) blessed all the Sahabah (raa) with different Virtues.
Allah (swt) had endowed Hz. Ali (ra) with bravery and he used this in service of Islam proved himself to be the Lion of Allah (swt).
Allah (swt) had endowed Hz. Uthman (ra) with wealth and he used this in service of Islam proved himself to be the benefactor of Islam and earned the title Al-Ghani from the Prophet (saw).
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
“And Whoever kills a believer deliberately, his reward is Hell forever, and the Wrath of Allah is upon him, He cursed him and prepared a great punishment for him.” (Quran 4:93)
Texan Dude I am not a scholar so I have to be very careful how I answer the above. And before I do attempt to do so, I just want to know from you if the above ayah applies to Hz. Ali (ra) and his followers or not.
It is obvious that they too killed a lot of Believers in the Battles of Camel and Siffin.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
what exactly do you mean by saying they too killed believers… Nauzubillah are you saying that Hazrat Ali .A.S killed believers… Allah SWT awarded Hazrat Ali A.S with sword Zulfiqar… are you trying to say nauzubillah Hazrat Ali A.S used the sword of Allah against Allah’s believers… Astagfirullah… why would Allah award him with a sword if nazubillah he was to use it against His believers… Secondly on what context did you called the hypocrites who came against Hazrat Ali A.S. believers… the teachings of your Sahih books contradicts it.. incase you missed in my last post let me requote you… Isn’t your book enough to show some of your so called Ameer ul Momineen were hypocrites…
Following are the hadith on Hazrat Ali A.S. in your sahih books.. please let me know if the references are not correct
The Messenger of Allah said:
"Loving Ali is the sign of belief, and hating Ali is the sign of hypocrasy."
Sunni references:
Sahih Muslim, v1, p48;
Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643;
Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p142;
Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v1, pp 84,95,128
Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202
Hilyatul Awliya’, by Abu Nu’aym, v4, p185
Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v14, p462
Also Muslim in his Sahih narrated on the authority of Zirr that:
Ali (RA) said: By him who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.
Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter XXXIV, p46, Tradition #141
This tradition of Prophet was popular to the extent that some of the
companions used to say:
“We recognized the hypocrites by their hatred of Ali.”
Sunni references:
Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p639, Tradition #1086
al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, p47
al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v3, p242
Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p91
I didn’t get time to read all your posts will answer your other queries later…
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
you are the one who doesn’t know who the muhajirs and ansar were and i’m supposed to be the ignorant one?.. come again?
the clue’s in the name… look up what ‘muhajir’ means…
if you are indeed a “talib-e-ilm” i’d say judging from your posts that your learning priorities are decidedly a$$-about-face…
“The sign of belief (iman) is love of the Ansar, and the sign of hypocrisy (nifaq) is hatred of the Ansar”
Sahih al Bukhari, 5:128
Sahih Muslim, 1:136-137
Musnad Ahmed ibn Hanbal, 12127
al Nasai’s Sunan al Sughra, 4979
al Nasai’s Sunan al Kubra, 7099
Musnad Abu Ya’la, 4066
al Baihaqi’s Shu’ab al Iman, 1482
“None loves the Ansar save a believer and none hates them save a hypocrite. So whosoever loves them, Allah loves him; and whosoever hates them, Allah hates him”
Sahih al Bukhari, 5:127
Sahih Muslim, 1:138
Sunan al Tirmidhi, 3997
Musnad Ahmed ibn Hanbal, 18214
al Nasai’s Sunan al Kubra, 7102
Sahih Ibn Hibban, 7395
Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba, 31735
al Baihaqi’s Shu’ab al Iman, 1481
“No one who believes in Allah and the Last Day hates the Ansar”
Sahih Muslim, 1:139-140
Musnad Ahmed ibn Hanbal, 11224
al Nasai’s Sunan al Kubra, 7091
Sahih Ibn Hibban, 7397
Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba, 31754
Musnad al Tayalasi, 2284
al Tabarani’s Mu’jam al Kabir, 12172
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
hmmm whats your point the above hadith. I quoted hadiths on Hazrat Ali A.S. also from your **SAHIH BOOKS **… Arent Ansar the people of Medina who helped Prophet P.B.U.H when he migrated.???.. whereas Abu Bakr who made Prophet P.B.U.H angry based on Sahih hadiths was the one who migrated to Medina… if you are still not convinced of the righteousness of Hazrat Ali A.S. read the following post in one of my replies to Ibn Sadique.. it might help you open your mind up…
***… And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless [33:33]
***and still if you doubt quran read the following verse … which tells you how pure, righteous and truthfull these personalities were
And whoever disputes with thee concerning him after the inspired knowledge which has been given unto thee, tell him, “Come, let us call our sons and your sons; our women and your women; and ourselves and yourselves; then let us pray and invoke Allah’s curse upon those who lie.” (3:61)
O you believe, obey Allah and obey His Messenger and those amongst you who are give supreme authority (by Allah). (4:59)
tell me who are the supreme authority who Allah SWT asks to obey besides Prophet… let me see what you just said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibn Sadique
Of course for further details we then refer to the Sunnah and the hadith.
Ok now lets go and read the sunnah of Prophet P.B.U.H.
Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) stood to give us a speech beside a pond which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum) which is located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised Allah and reminded Him, and then said: “O’ people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of Allah in which there is light and guidance… The other one is my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. (three times).”
Sunni Reference:
Sahih Muslim, Chapter of the virtues of the companions, section of the virtues of Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1873, Tradition #36.
hmm lets see did he say any other hadith…
“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”
Not to mention Prophet P.B.U.H. made people pay alligance after this hadith… the whole incident can be found in the following website with references. www.al-islam.org/ghadir
hmm still not convinced… there you go another hope this one would be easy to digest… “Verily, Ali and I are inseparable, and he is the master (wali) of every believer after me.”
******Sunni Refernces:
Al Tirmidhi, in his Sahih, ii, 297,
Ahmad ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, iv, 437, v, 356;
Abu Dawud al Tayalisi in his Musnad, iii, 111, xi, 360;
al Haythami, Majma al Zawaid, ix, 109, 127, 128, 199;
al Khatib al Baghdadi, Tarikh Baghdad, iv, 339;
al Muhibb al Tabari, al Riyad al Nadirah, ii, 203, 171;
al Muttaqi al Hindi, Kanz al Ummal, vi, 154, 155, 396, 401;
Ibn al Athir in Usd al Ghabah, v, 94;
Abu Nuaym in Hilyat al Awliya, vi, 294;
al Nasa’i, Khasais, 19, 23;
as well as Ibn Abi Shaybah, al Tabari, al Tabarani, al ?Daylami, Ibn Mardawayh, Ibn al Jawzi, al Rafii, and Ibn Hajar.
hmm want to read more hadith…
The Holy Prophet (pbuh&hp) said:
“May God’s mercy be upon Ali. My God, keep the Haqq (truth, righteousness, justice) always with Ali.”
Sunni Refernces:
Sahih Al Tirmidhi, ii, 298:
al Hakim in Mustadrak, iii, 119, 124;
al Khatib in Ta’rikh Baghdad, xiv, 321;
al Haythami in Majma` al Zawa’id, vii, 134, 235; 243;
al Muttaqi in Kanz al Ummal, vi, 157.
“The parable of my Ahl Al?bayt is that of the boat of Noah, whoever gets aboard it is saved and whoever stays away from it is drowned.”
-Al Hakim in his Mustadrak, ii, 343, iii, 150:
-Abu Nuaym in Hilyat al Awliya’, iv, 306;
al Khatib in Ta’rikh Baghdad, xii, 19;
al Suyuti in al Durr al Manthur (al-Matba`at al Maymaniyyah, Egypt, 1314), under verse 2:58;
al Muttaqi in Kanz al Ummal, i, 250, vi, 216;
al Haythami in Majma` al Zawa’id, ix, 167, 168;
al Muhibb al Tabari in Dhakha’ir al Uqba, 20; al Manawi in Kunuz al?Haqa’iq, 132.
Ok here is another ayat of Quran… None touches (the depth of meaning of Quran) save the purified ones. (56:79)
Hmmm like you said lets go and read in the light of hadith who knows these depth meanings whom quran refers as purified ones…
Al Nasa’i in Khasa’is, 40, reports this tradition on the authority of Abu Said al Khudri:
Abu Said al Khudri reports: "We sat waiting for the Messenger of Allah (pbuh&hp) when he came out to meet us. The strap of his sandal was broken and he tossed it to Ali. Then he (pbuh&hp) said: “A man amongst you will fight the people over the tawil (interpretation) of the Quran in the same way as I have fought over its tanzil (revelation).” Thereupon Abu Bakr said, ‘Is that I?’ The Prophet (pbuh&hp) said: “No.” Then Umar asked him, ‘Is that I?’ “No.” said the Prophet (pbuh&hp). “It is the mender of the sandal (i.e. Ali).”
Other Sunni References:
al Hakim in Mustadrak, iii, 122;
Ahmad ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, iii, 33, 82;
Abu Nuaym in Hilyat al Awliya’, i, 67;
Ibn al Athir in Usd al Ghabah, iii, 282, iv, 33;
Ibn Hajar, al Isabah, i, 22, iv, 152;
Ibn Abd al Barr, al lsti`ab, ii, 423;
al Haythami, Majma al Zawa’id, v, 186;
al Muttaqi, Kanz al Ummal, vi, 155, 390, 391.
Certainly your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe who eshtablish prayer and give charity while they bow. And who ever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious. (Quran 5:55-56)
It is unanimous that the verse descended about Imam Ali (AS) when he gave
away in charity his ring while he was in a state of kneeling in his prayer.
-Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ahmad Ibn Muhammad al-Tha’labi, under Verse 5:55
-Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v6, pp 186,288-289
-Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran, by Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Qurtubi, v6, p219
Tafsir al-Khazin, v2, p68
Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 293-294
Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, Egypt 1373, v1, pp 505,649
Asbab al-Nuzool, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, Egypt 1382, v1, p73 on the
authority of Ibn Abbas
Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas
Sharh al-Tjrid, by Allama Qushji
Ahkam al-Quran, al-Jassas, v2, pp 542-543
Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p38
Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p391, Tradition #5991
al-Awsat, by Tabarani, narrated from Ammar Yasir
Ibn Mardawayh, on the authority of Ibn Abbas
… and more.
hmm lets look at one more ayat… No one knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly ground in knowledge. (3:7)
hmm like you said lets go and look in the light of hadiths… “I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate; whoever intends to enter the city should come to its gate.”
Sunni Refernces:
Al Hakim in his Mustadrak, iii, 126, 127:
al Khatib in Tarikh Baghdad, ii, 348, 377; vii, 172; xi, 48, 49;
al Muhibb al Tabari in al Riyad al Nadirah, ii, 193;
al Muttaqi in Kanz al ummal, vi, 152, 156, 401;
Ibn Hajar in al Sawa’iq al Muhriqah, 73;
al Manawi in Kunuz al Haqaiq, 43 and Fayd al Qadir, iii, 46;
al Haythami, Majma al Zawa’id, ix, 114;
Ibn al Athir in Usd al Ghabah, iv, 22 and Tahdhib al Tahdhib (Hyderabad, 1325), vi, 152;
as well as al Uqayli, Ibn Adi and al Tabarani.
here is another ayat of Quran…
Whoever opposes the Prophet after the guidance has been made manifest unto him and follows any path other than the path of the true believers, We will turn him towards that unto which he himself has turned, and We will expose him to Hell and a bad journey it will be. (4:115)
hmm like you said lets go and interpret in the light of sunnah… “Verily, Ali and I are inseparable, and he is the master (wali) of every believer after me.”
Sunni Refernces:
Al Tirmidhi, in his Sahih, ii, 297,
Ahmad ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, iv, 437, v, 356;
Abu Dawud al Tayalisi in his Musnad, iii, 111, xi, 360;
al Haythami, Majma al Zawaid, ix, 109, 127, 128, 199;
al Khatib al Baghdadi, Tarikh Baghdad, iv, 339;
al Muhibb al Tabari, al Riyad al Nadirah, ii, 203, 171;
al Muttaqi al Hindi, Kanz al Ummal, vi, 154, 155, 396, 401;
Ibn al Athir in Usd al Ghabah, v, 94;
Abu Nuaym in Hilyat al Awliya, vi, 294;
al Nasa’i, Khasais, 19, 23;
as well as Ibn Abi Shaybah, al Tabari, al Tabarani, al ?Daylami, Ibn Mardawayh, Ibn al Jawzi, al Rafii, and Ibn Hajar.
Hmm certainly Prophet called Hazrat Ali A.S the master of believers… who should fit the better context of the ayat besides master of believers after Prophet…
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibn Sadique
Just to make it clear that Sunnis take the ‘Shia’ Imams (raa) to be people of knowlegde, worthy of respect, beacons of guidance and on the right Aqeedah of the Salaf - They were the teachers of Imams of Fiqh especially Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) and Imam Malik (ra).
We believe them to be on the aqeedah of Ahlul Sunnah.
hmm our Imams were the source of knowedge and also the teachers of sunni Imams… and why shouldn’t be… read the following ayat of Quran and you have answered your question yourself (Subhan Allah)
None touches (the depth of meaning of Quran) save the purified ones. (56:79)
No one knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly ground in knowledge. (3:7)
hmm based on the context of the above they sure are the righteous ones… and you yourself admits that they are the people of knowledge.. and still you go to there students to get islam… rather than the teacher itself.. amazing isn’t it… is it because they are shia Imams… now mind if I ask you a question…** Our Imams were the source of knowledge for your so called Imams… tell me who was the teacher of our Imam… makes you wonder doesn’t it… Please tell me… where does there source of knowledge comes from??? (QUESTION) thats why I said earlier we have 12 Imams and teaching of none contradicts the other… whereas you have four Imam’ls and there are some differences in their teachings.**
**hmm now thats funny our Imams have been source for knowledge for your Imams… but Imam Mahdi A.S … comes from aqeedah of Ahley sunnah… I wonder why… btw which school of thought of Ahley sunnah… Maliki, hanafi..??? ** Prophet said the following hadith…
The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh.”
References:
Sahih Muslim (Arabic version)
Its amazing 11 of our Imams have been a good source of knowledge and some are also teachers of your imams but 12th imam comes from the aqeedah of ahley sunnah…
I’ll be waiting for your answer for my question in red… Please let me know if there are any errors in the references…
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
this is in fact part of a longer hadith that begins with the words, “May Allah have mercy on Abu Bakr, he married his daughter to me and accompanied me to the land of migration…”… only a shi-ite with a biased, hate-filled agenda would fail to cite the hadith in full… or - and this is the more likely – you probably haven’t even seen, let alone read, many of the reports that you aimlessly cite as evidence… (copying blindly won’t really get you very far mr. “talib-e-ilm”)
in any case, the chain of transmission contains al Mukhtar ibn Nafi about whom al Bukhari said, “Rejected in hadith” and Ibn Hibban said, "He brings rejected reports [supposedly] on the authority of well known narrators (cited in al Manawi’s Fayd al Qadir, #4412)
al Dhahabi confirmed the weakness of al Hakim’s chain because of Mufadhal bin Salih who is “rejected in hadith” according to al Bukhari; the various chains recorded by al Tabarani rely on Abdullah ibn Dahir and al Hasan ibn Abi Ja’far both of whom are “abandoned”, or on Abdullah ibn Abd al Qudus who is adjudged weak by numerous hadith scholars, or the chains contain groups of unknown reporters as stated by al Haythami in his Majma al Zawa’id (14,981); al Bazzar’s report from Ibn Zubair contains Ibn Lahiyya, a well-known weak narrator; a similar report from Anas ibn Malik contains Aban ibn Abi Ayash who is accused of fabricating hadith etc. etc.
referring to the lawh al mahfuz in the heavens… only the purified angels are able to touch it
if this is the case… why do you think there wasn’t an overwhelming need to fight the people over the interpretation of the Qur’an during Abu Bakr’s (r) and Umar’s (r) khilafa?
i find that the idiocy of your posts is often directly proportional to the number of references you gormlessly copy-and-paste…
you began here by saying… “It is unanimous that the verse descended about Imam Ali (AS)…”
is it?
why then does al Qurtubi (one of your references) cite Ibn Abbas in one report from him that the verse was sent down about Abu Bakr? where’s the unanimity ?
al Tabari (your first reference) said the commentators have differed over the interpretation of this verse…
al Suyuti (another of your references) as well as Ibn Kathir (who you didn’t bother to mention) also said that it could have been revealed about Ubada ibn al Samit…
so where’s the consensus?
next time try reading the books before quoting from them otherwise you’ll just keep putting your foot in your mouth
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Well you don’t need to accuse me for anything buddy .. Incase you didn’t notice I said please verify references and let me know of any errors… secondly did you verify the references for yourself… and why was the hadith rejected… is it because it was later fabricated in some of the sources to add Abu Bakr who according to Sahih Bukhai made Prophet P.B.U.H. angry.
and why was this hadith rejected… it fits the context of another hadith in Sahih Muslim…
Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) stood to give us a speech beside a pond which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum) which is located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised Allah and reminded Him, and then said: “O’ people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of Allah in which there is light and guidance… The other one is my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. (three times).”
Sunni Reference:
Sahih Muslim, Chapter of the virtues of the companions, section of the virtues of Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1873, Tradition #36.
Lol the hadith fits the context of this hadith in Sahih Muslim…hmm let me guess it because Sunni needs some excuse to justify there man made khaleefas… hmm why didn’t the rule out the hadith above buddy.. hmm u left a foot print… come on buddy get back to business and try to come up with some excuse to rule this out …
Maula Ali A.S was there to defend islam when needed… thats why Umar had to end u saying had it not been Ali i would have been halak.. I’ll try to get the references on it later…
[QUOTE = Gupguppy]
why then does al Qurtubi (one of your references) cite Ibn Abbas in one report from him that the verse was sent down about Abu Bakr? where’s the unanimity ?
al Tabari (your first reference) said the commentators have differed over the interpretation of this verse…
al Suyuti (another of your references) as well as Ibn Kathir (who you didn’t bother to mention) also said that it could have been revealed about Ubada ibn al Samit…
so where’s the consensus?
next time try reading the books before quoting from them otherwise you’ll just keep putting your foot in your mouth
[/quote]
Dude care to say when did Abu Bakr did Zakat while he was in Rukooh… and was it before or after the ayat was revealed… I have references from Shia books also… but oh well… some one needs excuses… to defend a khaleefa who went as far as making Prophet P.B.U.H. angry… I want the incident when Abu Bakr gave charity while he was bowing down in prayers and was it after or before the verse was revealed.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
I think the following saying suits you well.
‘Give a man enough rope, and he’ll hang himself’
Just a few posts ago you had testified that Muslims were killing each other and Imam Hassan (ra) with his wisdom had brought this ghastly carnage to an end.
Now let me quote Imam Ali (ra) again for you. Here is in talking about his opponents in the Siffin war. He took their beliefs to be on par with him. He has stated that:
Had common faith in one Allah
In the same Prophet (s)
On the same principles and canons of religion
So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they believed in.
And they did not want us to change our faith
Both of us were united on these principles.
Hz. Ali (ra) in Nahjul Balagha
“The thing began in this way: We and the Syrians were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (s) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles. The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it… [Nahjul Balagah Letter No. 58]
Similarly see what he had to say of his opponents in the Battle of Camel
In Sunan Bayhiqi it is narrated that on the eve of the war of Jamal, Ali Radhi Allaahu ta’ala 'anh was asked about the opponents:
“Are they Mushrikeen?”
He replied: “They have run from shirk and come into Islaam”
Then he was asked “Are they Munafiqeen?”
He replied “Munafiqeen are those who don’t remember Allah, except a little (while the opponents do a lot of Zikr)”
Then he was asked: “Then what are they?”
He replied:" They are our brothers who have rebelled from us” - [Sunun Bayhiqi - Dairat ul Ma’arif edition page 173 vol 8]
Note: Hazrat Ali (ra) has stated that his opponents were ‘our brothers’.
Now let me quote the Prophet (saw):
Narrated AbuBakrah: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) said to al-Hassan ibn Ali. “This son of mine is a Sayyid, and I hope Allah may reconcile two parties of my community by means of him.” Hammad’s version has: And perhaps Allah may reconcile two large parties of Muslims by means of him. Book 40, Number 4645 Sunan Abu-Dawud
The Blessed Prophet (saw) has clearly state that the two parties in the dispute will be Muslims, period. Now, do you want to dispute that?
When the Prophet (saw) states that some one is a Muslim; he is a Muslim. Period.
The Prophet (saw) has said that Hz. Ali (ra)'s opponents will be Believers.
Hz. Ali (ra) has acknowlegded that there is not an iota of difference him and his opponents.
You just a couple of posts ago said that the Muslims were killing each other.
I am sure Zulfikar was used and many Believers got killed by it.
Now tell me sincerely: Does the following ayah apply to Hz. Ali (ra) and his followers as well.
**“And Whoever kills a believer deliberately, his reward is Hell forever, and the Wrath of Allah is upon him, He cursed him and prepared a great punishment for him.” ** (Quran 4:93)
Keep in mind that we have established (not forgetting your input too) that Hz. Ali (ra)'s opponents were as much Believers as he was. Of course Hz. Ali (ra) rank is much beyond them.
I really want to resolve this issue before we move on. So keep focused on to this only. It is you who brought it up so let’s settle this
I had addressed the above but I guess you haven’t got the chance to read it as yet. I’ll just quote myself again for you.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
lol… lets Analyze what you just quoted..
……………With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness,
Hmmm Nusairess love Hazrat Ali A.S so much that started calling him** God**
and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness.
Certainly there are people like you … who degrade hazrat Ali A.S. so much that are accusing him for blood shed of so many muslims… doubting his rightousness… who regard the hypocrites who came against Hazrat Ali A.S as Ameer ul Momineen… who doubt on Allah SWT justice by saying he awarded a sword to someone who led to bloodshed of believers.. if thats not hatredness what is it.. and who are those people…??? care to tell me please…May Allah show you the right path.. Ameen…
The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah’s hand (of protection) is on keeping unity.
And certainly shias are the who obeyed what Prophet P.B.U.H. at Ghadeer…
"Whoever I am the leader Ali is his leader… " Ali’s who was bravest of the brave.. who was the gate of knowledge… for whom Prophet P.B.U.H. said "Loving Ali is the sign of belief, and hating Ali is the sign of hypocrasy."
Hope the above will help you analyze love of Hazrat Ali A.S. better.. I’ll be back with other responses when i get time…
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Hmm looks like someone is trying to come up with excuses… what you said is crystal clear if you have an answer please answer it.. I don’t need to open any other threads… what you quoted was enough to see whats black and whats white.. I don’t have any doubts… SubhanAllah… kiya shaan heh.. the so called Imams of Sunni also had to go to shia Imams to seek knowledge.. subhan Allah… thats enough for me to show who is righteous and good source of knowledge.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Shias a Great Majority of Muslims??? Come down from “Cloud Cuckoo Land” before you fall down and hurt your head or something.
** Shias a Great Majority of Muslims??? ** I don’t believe you said that. Are you really serious?
As I said before “Give a man enough rope, he will go and hang himself.”
Did you get that from the same website you keeping pasting from.
Go now and be a good Dude and let them know that Shias are mere 10 – 15% of the Muslims.
Please don’t run away from the issue on hand. Stay focused on this.
Now tell me sincerely: Does the following ayah apply to Hz. Ali (ra) and his followers as well.
“And Whoever kills a believer deliberately, his reward is Hell forever, and the Wrath of Allah is upon him, He cursed him and prepared a great punishment for him.” (Quran 4:93)
Keep in mind that we have established (not forgetting your input too) that Hz. Ali (ra)'s opponents were as much Believers as he was.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
lol… dude you make me laugh.. I thought you are the one who claimed that anything in (brackets) is made belief and doen’t apply…, talking about majority.. which of your fiqh is in majority.. hanafi, sajai, maliki, debondi, wahabi??? now getting to the point..than who are those people who take Hazrat Ali A.S so far… trust me read what I quoted.. you meet the perfect description.. incase you missed the question I asked let me requote for you…
“…and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness.”
Certainly there are people like you … who degrade hazrat Ali A.S. so much that are accusing him for blood shed of so many muslims… doubting his rightousness… who regard the hypocrites who came against Hazrat Ali A.S as Ameer ul Momineen… who doubt on Allah SWT justice by saying he awarded a sword to someone who led to bloodshed of believers.. if thats not hatredness what is it.. and who are those people…??? care to tell me please…May Allah show you the right path.. Ameen… if its not you than who are these people…
I used hadiths from your Sahih book and called them hypocrites based on that… don’t blame me for soemthing I didn’t say…
Ibn Sadique, I’ll try to answer the queries you have but not this weekend.. i’ll be real busy… don’t think I have put you on ignore you just gotta be patient… and inshallah I’ll try to answer your questions after the weekend.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
**Texan Dude ** - In all your posts you have been calling me “ignorant” “you lost soul” “your smart brain” and what else you have in your vocabulary. You can check out that I have not addressed you with anything but Texan Dude.
Just by your arrogant mannerism you have let down ‘your’ pious Imams (raa). Whereas I think I have lived up to their noble words of wisdom.
Just a side question, do you read what you normally post?
I wish you had re-read the above post of yours before posting it.
Please go back and read my post # 126 and onwards and tell where I have accused “him for blood shed of so many muslims”.
You are basically a cut & paste debater. You have just taken material from the infamous website and posted it here. Now it’s time for you to use your own grey matter.
It was you who has brought the following ayah into contention.
“And Whoever kills a believer deliberately, his reward is Hell forever, and the Wrath of Allah is upon him, He cursed him and prepared a great punishment for him.” (Quran 4:93)
All I am asking you is** IF ** this ayah applies to Hz. Ali (ra) and his followers too.
I have not accused them of anything. Neither am I dispatching them to Hell.
We have established that his opponents were Muslims on level with same Beliefs.
So naturally, in the battle Hz. Ali (ra) and and his followers must have killed quite many of their opponents who were Muslims.
Read my quotation again and note the word “IF”
You may hoodwink yourself and surely not the viewers here. You can go back to all my posts on GS and see that I have always respected members of Ahlul Bayt (raa) and have always addressed them with respect due to them. I don’t need your kind of approval to prove my love for them.
I had told you earlier that I have one son and have named him Ali in honour of this great companion of the Prophet (saw) [May Allah (swt) be pleased with him]
Now back to the question on hand:
“And Whoever kills a believer deliberately, his reward is Hell forever, and the Wrath of Allah is upon him, He cursed him and prepared a great punishment for him.” (Quran 4:93)
I just want to know from you** IF ** the above ayah applies to Hz. Ali (ra) and his followers or not.
Just an advise to help out of the hole that you have fallen into.
Your favourite website won’t help you out, please refer this to your scholar and he may help you out.
Texan Dude – Please take as much time as you want, there is no rush [This will also give me time away from debating, as too much time on debating ‘hardens the heart’ and I don’t want that] Insha’Allah you will find me very patient and even if you put me on your ignore list , I’ll not hold it against you.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
we’ve been doing just that throughout… every time you post your copy-and-paste arguments we verify them for you (in other words, do your homework for you) and point out your numerous errors…
