A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

Looks like you haven’t read any of the previous posts before you start giving your judgements and asking questions.

Why did Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. gave the following hadith’s before his shadat.“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”

**“The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh.” **

“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”

“I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate; whoever intends to enter the city should come to its gate.”

“Are you not pleased to have the position (manzilah) in relation to me as that Aaron had in relation to Moses?”

**“It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere to them both, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my Progeny, that is my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise).” **

And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications. Quran[32:24]

Had you read my previous post you won’t be asking the same questions again… Let me requote it for you to save you from the trouble of going back and reading it.
As far as Hazrat Ali A.S. not reminding people about this divine right the following sermon answers the question.

If had I attempted to pluck the unripe fruit of Caliphate then by this the orchard would have been desolated and I too would have achieved nothing, like these people who cultivate on other’s land but can neither guard it, nor water it at proper time, nor reap any crop from it. The position of these people is that if I ask them to vacate it so that the owner should cultivate it himself and protect it, they say how greedy I am, while if I keep quiet they think I am afraid of death. They should tell me on what occasion did I ever feel afraid, or flew from battle-field for life, whereas every small or big encounter is proof of my bravery and a witness to my daring and courage. He who plays with swords and strikes against hillocks is not afraid of death. I am so familiar with death that even an infant is not so familiar with the breast of its mother. Hark! The reason for my silence is the knowledge that the Prophet has put in my bosom. If I divulge it you would get perplexed and bewildered. Let some days pass and you would know the reason of my inaction, and perceive with your own eyes what sorts of people would appear on this scene under the name of Islam, and what destruction they would bring about. My silence is because this would happen, otherwise it is not silence without reason."

**http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/default.asp?url=5.htm

**Let me quote you the part of the sermon again incase you missed it
" Let some days pass and you would know the reason of my inaction, and perceive with your own eyes what sorts of people would appear on this scene under the name of Islam, and what destruction they would bring about. My silence is because this would happen, otherwise it is not silence without reason."
TELL ME WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE WHO DIDN’T HAVE PROBLEM WITH THE FIRST 3 CALIPHS WHO FOR THEIR GREED OF KHILAFAT LEFT THE FUNERAL SERVICES OF THE BELOVED PROPHET P.B.U.H. AND WHEN HAZRAT ALI A.S BECAME KHALEEFA EVEN THOUGH HE MADE IT CLEAR BEFORE THAT HE IS NOT GOING TO FOLLOW ANYTHING ELSE BESIDES QURAN AND SUNNAH.. THEY GO AGAINST SUCH A WISE CALIPH…AND NOT ONLY THAT MAWIYAH WHO CAME TO FIGHT AGAINST HAZRAT ALI A.S (AMEER UL MOMINEEN) FOR THIS GREED OF KHILAFAT THEY EVEN REGARD HIM HAS AMEER UL MOMINEEN..WHY DON’T YOU GUYS REGARD YAZEED AS NAUZUBILLAH AMEER UL MOMINEEN HE DID THE SAME THING HIS DAD did.. CAME TO WAR AGAINST SON OF HAZRAT ALI..THE FIRST TWO CALIPHS LEFT THE FUNERAL OF PROPHET MOHAMMAD P.B.U.H. YAZEED ARMY KILLED IMAM HUSSAIN AND HIS FAMILY AND LEFT THEM IN THE LAND OF KERBALA FOR THE GREED OF THIS KHILAFAT…CAN’T YOU SEE FOR YOURSELF HOW MESSED UP YOU BELIEVES ARE??? ISLAM WAS STILL A GROWING PLANT.. PROBABLY HAZRAT ALI DIDN’T WANT MUSLIM UMMAH TO FIGHT AMONG EACH OTHER… AND MADE IT CLEAR THAT HIS TEACHINGS WILL BE FROM QURAN AND SUNNAH AND WHAT THEY WANT IS SOMEONE FOR THEIR WORLDLY DESIRES AND APPARENTLY THEY CAME AND FOUGHT AGAINST HIM… AS Imam and protector of islam.. Hazrat Ali A.S. had to make it clear so everything is black and white for us… TO ME ITS GOOD HAZRAT ALI A.S. MADE THAT CLEAR SO PEOPLE DON’T CALL HIM GREEDY FOR POWER WHEN PEOPLE LIKE MAWIYA AND HAZRAT AYESHA CAME TO WAR AGAINST HIM..HE MADE HIS STAND CLEAR EVEN BEFORE HE BECAME KHALEEFA THAT HE WILL BE OUT THERE TO FOLLOW QURAN AND SUNNAH… ELSE HE WOULD BE BETTER OFF AS AN ADVISOR…NOW IF YOU HAVE BRAINS YOU WOULD BE SMART ENOUGH TO JUDGE WHOEVER COME AGAINST HIM…WHAT COULD HIS INTENSIONS BE..FOR SURE HAZRAT ALI DIDN’T HAVE ANY GREED FOR POWER?
An example for him being quite can be seen right here…
.When the Holy Prophet died Abu Sufyan was not in Medina. He was coming back when on his way he got the news of this tragedy. At once he enquired who had become the leader and Chief. He was told that people had paid allegiance to Abu Bakr. On hearing this the acknowledged mischief-monger of Arabia went into deep thought and eventually went to Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib with a proposal. He said to him, "Look, these people have by contrivance made over the Caliphate to the Taym and deprived Banu Hashim of it for good, and after himself this man would place over our heads a haughty man of Banu Adi. Let us go to Ali ibn Abi Talib and ask him to get out of his house and take to arms to secure his right." So taking Abbas with him he came to `Ali and said: “Let me your hand; I pay allegiance to you and if anyone rises in opposition I would fill the streets of Medina with men of cavalry and infantry.” This was the most delicate moment for Amir al-mu’minin. He regarded himself as the true head and successor of the Prophet while a man with the backing of his tribe and party like Abu Sufyan was ready to support him. Just a signal was enough to ignite the flames of war. But Amir al-mu’minin’s foresight and right judgement saved the Muslims from civil war as his piercing eyes perceived that this man wanted to start civil war by rousing the passions of tribal partisanship and distinction of birth, so that Islam should be struck with a convulsion that would shake it to its roots. Amir al-mu’minin therefore rejected his counsel and admonished him severely and spoke forth the words, whereby he has stopped people from mischief mongering, and undue conceit, and declared his stand to be that for him there were only two courses - either to take up arms or to sit quietly at home. If he rose for war there was no supporter so that he could suppress these rising insurgencies. The only course left was quietly to wait for the opportunity till circumstances were favourable.

Please read the hadiths and ayats quoted in this forum… before you jump to conclusion… Not only have I quoted the hadith’s but also given references from sunni books. Prove me they are wrong..rather than giving your judgements..without any proper references.

A lame argument that proves nothing.. you cannot ignore the fact that firqa-e-Jaffaria..believes in 12 Imam… who are examples when it comes to knowledge … Imams Like Hazrat Ali A.S, Imam Jaffar-e-Sadiq A.S. Imam Hussain who sacrificed his family in the way of Allah SWT to defend islam… unlike Imam Hanafi, Shafai and Maliki, three of our Imams were there during the time of the Prophet, and there aren’t any difference in teachings of any of the imam… not to mention the 12th Imam is Imam Mahdi.. for whom Holy Prophet P.B.U.H. said the following.

The following are only some of the traditions about Imam al-Mahdi which Sunnis admit to their authenticity and existence:The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “Even if the entire duration of the world’s existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left (before the day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then).”

Go to the following websitef or references.
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter2/2.html

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “The Mahdi will appear in my Ummah. He will appear for a minimum of 7 or a maximum of 9 years; at that time, my Ummah will experience a bountiful favor like never before. It shall have a great abundance of food, of which it need not save anything, and the wealth at that time is in great quantities, such that if a man asks the Mahdi to give him some, and the Mahdi (AS) will say: Here! Take!”

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “We (I and my family) are members of a household that Allah (SWT) has chosen for them the life of the Hereafter over the life of this world; and the members of my household (Ahlul-Bayt) shall suffer a great affliction and they shall be forcefully expelled from their homes after my death; then there will come people from the East carrying black flags, and they will ask for some good to be given to them, but they shall be refused service; as such, they will wage war and emerge victorious, and will be offered that which they desired in the first place, but they will refuse to accept it till they pass it to a man from my family (Ahlul-Bayt) appears to fill the Earth with justice as it has been filled with corruption. So whoever reaches that (time) ought to come to them even if crawling on the ice/snow since among them is the Vice-regent of Allah (Khalifatullah) al-Mahdi.”
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter2/2.html

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

I don't care about "Sunni" books, whatever that means. Nearly everything you have posted is irrelevant to the issue of Hazrat Ali being the successor over Hazrat Abu Bakr. You have not provided any Sahih Hadith.

You mentioned just one Quranic ayat which is totally out of context. That ayat refers to Hazrat Musa and his Scriptures and the surah is addressed to the People of Pharoh. See below:

23 We verily gave Moses the Scripture; so be not ye in doubt of his receiving it; and We appointed it a guidance for the Children of Israel.

24 And when they became steadfast and believed firmly in Our revelations, We appointed from among them leaders who guided by Our command.

A cut and paste job from a website doesn't count. Hardly credible. It's not my job to prove you wrong, you're the one trying to make a case here.

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

why are we debating over dead people?

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

Khan dude..how about you go and read the previous post.s..rather than asking questions that have already being mentioned… me and Kaleem had a big debate on the ayats you quoted… incase you missed it .. let me quote it to you again.

Kaleem since you doubt the authenticiy of the translation of the ayats I gave you.. even though it says the same thing your translation quotes…I have read the commentary of the quran online I posted below and checked in an English and an urdu Quran and they all the same. Since my knowledge of Quran is limited, and you are having a hard time seeing the coorelation of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. with Hazrat Mousa A.S. eventhough I have given you hadith’s along with references… Let me ask you a few questions… from your own translation… Correct me if I am wrong… Ayat 32:23 first assures that a book was given to Prophet Moses A.S. and than its used as an example for muslims to be not in doubt… Why would Allah SWT **first talk about the book Allah SWT revealed to Prophet Moses and than ask muslims to not doubt of its reaching.. now tell me doesn’t it mean that Allah SWT uses Tawrat as an example to show muslims not to doubt on the books being revealed to Prophet from GOD ( which in our case is Quran)… Can’t you see for yourself Allah SWT uses Tawrat as an example so muslims don’t doubt book revealed to Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. and Allah futher goes on mentioning about Imams as source of guidance after showing this parallelism… Now tell me if the second verse was not for Imams. Why didn’t Allah SWT just said Rasool or Prophet instead…? **
Read the second ayat:
And We appointed, from among them, leaders, giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.
Look at the whole life history of Hazrat Ali A.S. and quote me one incident he disobeyed command of Allah SWT.
Nauzubillah if he wasn’t the righteous why would Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. say such hadith’s.

**“The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh.” **

“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”

“I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate; whoever intends to enter the city should come to its gate.”

“Are you not pleased to have the position (manzilah) in relation to me as that Aaron had in relation to Moses?”

How about answering the question rather than going over the same stuff that had been said before.

**“The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh.” **

“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”
[/quote]
www.al-islam.org/ghadir
An hadith taken authentic both by shia and sunnis… you can go to the above website and it has list of references.. and if you still doubt the credibility go and open you books and read it for yourself with an open eye…

Now go and read on the previous posts so you can catch up on things.. and don’t keep asking theh questions that have already being answered… i have even quoted hadith from you so called SAHIH BOOKS…

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

If it isn't sahih hadith, it is not authentic. Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari. The ONLY hadith agreed to be authentic by ALL schoools of thought. Is that too hard for you to understand? I don't see any references.

People will keep asking the same questions because you failed to answer even one of them with your circular logic. That ayat is still out of context, where does it say that "leaders" (not Imams) have anything to do with Hazrat Ali? And where does it say Hazrat Ali should be the IMMEDIATE successor to the Caliphate?

You have no case, the only attribute you can claim to Shiasm is creating the first sect in Islam.

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

Besides, in case you didn't notice, no one is paying much attention to your cut and paste jobs. Congratulations, you've done your cause more harm than good.

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

Khan sahab… ha ha ha nice way to ignore the truths… i quoted so many hadiths along with references you wern’t able to disapprove any of them and you want to carry out an argument without any proper references…

ARE YOU TELLING ME THE FOLLOWING HADITH IS NOT SAHIH???
“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”
www.al-islam.org/ghadir

How about being man enough to defend what you say… rather than making stuff up to ignore the truth

ha ha ha nice try to ignore my questions… Not everybody have been asking the same questions like you…LET ME REPHASE WHAT YOU JUST SAID.. YOU WILL KEEP ASKING SAME QUESTIONS BECAUSE YOU ARE HAVING HARD TIME DIGESTING THE TRUTH AND TROUBLE DEFENDING THEIR OWN BELIEVES… I have tried to answer as many as you could..incase your ignorant eyes missed it… I can’t helped it… I gave the ayat of Quran and than defended it in the light of hadiths. Read posts 27-37… If you would have guts you would have argued the subject based on what i said..rather than being a cry baby coming up with excuses to ignore the truth…

Oh another mistake… the only attribute sunnis did was created the first sect in islam… Let me remind you Mr. its you sunnis who disobeyed what Prophet Mohammad said at Ghadeer -e- Khum even though he made people pay their alligance to Hazrat Ali A.S. but you people disobeyed and left the funeral of Prophet to make your own khaleefas… and unlike you sunnis our Imam didn’t came years after the death of Prophet like hanafi, shafai and Maliki.. Our Imam were there with the Prophet…never ran away from battle fields, their knowledge is outstanding…and was awarded sword (Zulfiqar) from Allah SWT

Now be man enough and just answer the question I asked before… which ofcouse your ignorant eyes might have missed
TELL ME WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE WHO DIDN’T HAVE PROBLEM WITH THE FIRST 3 CALIPHS WHO FOR THEIR GREED OF KHILAFAT LEFT THE FUNERAL SERVICES OF THE BELOVED PROPHET P.B.U.H. AND WHEN HAZRAT ALI A.S BECAME KHALEEFA EVEN THOUGH HE MADE IT CLEAR BEFORE THAT HE IS NOT GOING TO FOLLOW ANYTHING ELSE BESIDES QURAN AND SUNNAH.. THEY GO AGAINST SUCH A WISE CALIPH…AND NOT ONLY THAT MAWIYAH WHO CAME TO FIGHT AGAINST HAZRAT ALI A.S (AMEER UL MOMINEEN) FOR THIS GREED OF KHILAFAT THEY EVEN REGARD HIM HAS AMEER UL MOMINEEN..WHY DON’T YOU GUYS REGARD YAZEED AS NAUZUBILLAH AMEER UL MOMINEEN HE DID THE SAME THING HIS DAD did.. CAME TO WAR AGAINST SON OF HAZRAT ALI..THE FIRST TWO CALIPHS LEFT THE FUNERAL OF PROPHET MOHAMMAD P.B.U.H. in the greed of khilafat…YAZEED ARMY KILLED IMAM HUSSAIN AND HIS FAMILY AND LEFT THEM IN THE LAND OF KERBALA FOR THE GREED OF THIS KHILAFAT…CAN’T YOU SEE FOR YOURSELF HOW MESSED UP YOU BELIEVES ARE??? ISLAM WAS STILL A GROWING PLANT.. PROBABLY HAZRAT ALI DIDN’T WANT MUSLIM UMMAH TO FIGHT AMONG EACH OTHER… AND MADE IT CLEAR THAT HIS TEACHINGS WILL BE FROM QURAN AND SUNNAH AND WHAT THEY WANT IS SOMEONE FOR THEIR WORLDLY DESIRES AND APPARENTLY THEY CAME AND FOUGHT AGAINST HIM… AS Imam and protector of islam.. Hazrat Ali A.S. had to make it clear so everything is black and white for us… TO ME ITS GOOD HAZRAT ALI A.S. MADE THAT CLEAR SO PEOPLE DON’T CALL HIM GREEDY FOR POWER WHEN PEOPLE LIKE MAWIYA AND HAZRAT AYESHA CAME TO WAR AGAINST HIM..HE MADE HIS STAND CLEAR EVEN BEFORE HE BECAME KHALEEFA THAT HE WILL BE OUT THERE TO FOLLOW QURAN AND SUNNAH… ELSE HE WOULD BE BETTER OFF AS AN ADVISOR…NOW IF YOU HAVE BRAINS YOU WOULD BE SMART ENOUGH TO JUDGE WHOEVER COME AGAINST HIM…WHAT COULD HIS INTENSIONS BE..FOR SURE HAZRAT ALI DIDN’T HAVE ANY GREED FOR POWER?

hmmm let me guess trying to cook another lame excuse to go pass this one???

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

Hmmm you were the 46 to reply on this post… how more ignorant you can be…I haven’t been talking to myself..now am I… Dude you gotta cool down and think off what I have been saying than just ignore it by coming up with some lame excuse… now cool down buddy

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

Texan Dude

You seem have (written) copy pasted a lot but failed to show where Hz. Ali (ra) was reminding the people of his **‘Divine Appointment’ ** as the successor to the Prophet (saw) at Khum Ghadeer from the Sermon 91 from .

You seem to be pitching more for him for what he never did for himself.

I want to hear the words to the effect **“I am the Successor of the Prophet (saw), O people! Do recall the Khum Ghadeer…………” ** Something to that effect.

As far as Hazrat Ali A.S. not reminding people about this divine right the following sermon answers the question.

The above doesn’t stand up to the facts as Hz. Ali (ra) was very close and valued advisor and aide of his pious predecessors.

In the above quotation from Shia sources you have Hz. Ali (ra) protesting at being ‘robbed’ of his right by the first two Khaleefs (ra) and then there are narrations from your infallible Imams [great grandsons of Hz. Ali (ra)] in full of praise and loyal to the first two Khaleefs (ra)!

*Once, the wife of Imam Jaffar as Sadiq asked him about Abu Bakr and Umar.

Imam Jaffar as Sadiq (ra) expressed his support to Abu Bakr and Umar.

He replied, "I support them”.

Then he said to his wife,” you should support them also."

His wife replied, “So should I say to my creator when I meet Him, that it is your order to support Abu Bakr and Umar.”

The truthful Imam Jaffar replied, ” Yes." - Source: Rawzatul Kafi, vol.8, p.101

Once, Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (ra) while sitting with his companions, praised Abu Bakr by calling him the truthful (“as-Siddiq”). One of his companions got astonished by this remark and inquired if he (the Imam) really meant what he said. Upon this Imam al-Baqir replied, “yes Abu Bakr is the truthful and whoever does not give this attribution to him, then may God make that person(who did not give the attribute) helpless on the day of resurrection” * Source: Kashful Ghumamah, vol.2, p.174]

**Now can tell me why this discrepancy? **

**In one instance you have in your books Hz. Ali (ra) complaining of being ‘usurped’ of his divine granted right and then later his very grandsons are stating praise and loyalty to the very usurpers. **

Amazing! Isn’t it?

In fact even your books state that Hz. Ali (ra) got his daughter from Hz. Fatimah (ra) namely Hz. Hz. Umm Kulthum (ra) married to Hz. Umar bin Al Khattab!

If you believe the above narrations, don’t you see contradictions in Hz. Ali’s (ra) action?

Initially he gives ups up his divine right to khilafaat/imamate so to spare the Muslim blood being spilled in the civil war and then much later he picks up the sword to claim his right which led to devastating civil war and spilled a lot of Muslim blood.

What happened to his earlier forbearance and self-restrain?

Bear in mind that I am not criticizing Hz. Ali (ra), far from it. I take him to be the fourth rightly-guided khaleef. One of the foremost among the blessed companions of the Prophet (saw). And one of the blessed ten who were given the good news of Paradise by none other that the Prophet (saw) himself.

I used the names of the Khaleefs whom I considered to good for the Ummah at large and to show you that all that I named were from the tribe of the Quraish as the hadith stipulates.

Just to lay your itching curiosity at rest I skipped naming Yazid bin Muawiyah as he doesn’t measure up to being a good khaleef.

I am interpreting nothing myself but just plainly stating what Prophet (saw) and Hz. Ali (ra) stated. The Prophet (saw) used the word Mawlah for Hz. Ali (ra). And the word Mawlah in NO stretch of imagination means Ameer or a Khaleef.

And Hz. Ali (ra) said the following: “I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief"

I rather stick to what they say than believe in your interpretations.

“The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh.”

I am providing you a link to a very interesting debate going on among the 12’ers/Imamis/ithna Asharis to the succession of imamate. I am pasting the opening post for your reference.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=41761

To date there are nearly 438 post and over 10,000 views! And you can see that there are many views among the 12’ers about lineage imamate.

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

Care to tell me what does the highlighted part of the sermon refers too…

The reason for my silence is the knowledge that the Prophet has put in my bosom. If I divulge it you would get perplexed and bewildered. Let some days pass and you would know the reason of my inaction, and perceive with your own eyes what sorts of people would appear on this scene under the name of Islam, and what destruction they would bring about. My silence is because this would happen, otherwise it is not silence without reason." (Sermon 5 Najul Balagah)

What is Hazrat Ali A.S. silent about.

He helped the caliphs by his advices… because it was his duty as Imam… eventhough he was not given his right..he probably preferred to be an advisor to work to the interest and protect Islam…

The book you have mentioned I have never even heard the names off… and I doubt the authenticity of those hadith… I doubt if Imams would say something like that… HOW CAN IMAM OR I MUST SAY ANY MUSLIM LOVE AND RESPECT PEOPLE WHO MADE THE PROPHET ANGRY… AND I AM NOT JUST SAYING IT.. I READ TWO HADITH’S IN SAHIH BUKHARI THAT GOT MY ATTENTION…LET ME QUOTE IT FOR YOU.

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) had frequently said:
“Fatimah is a part of me. Whoever makes her angry, makes me angry.”
References:
Sunni references:

  • Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v5, Traditions #61 and #111
  • Sahih Muslim, section of virtues of Fatimah, v4, pp 1904-5
    And now read what Bibi Ayesha has to say
    al-Bukhari narrated on the authority of
    Aisha that:
    … Fatimah became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did
    not talk to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after
    the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her
    at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by
    himself.
    Sunni references:
  • Sahih al-Bukhari, Chapter of “The battle of Khaibar”, Arabic-English,
    v5, tradition #546, pp 381-383, also v4, Tradition 325

NOW TELL ME WHY WOULD IMAMS OR ANY MUSLIM CAN LOVE SOMEONE WHO MADE THEIR PROPHET ANGRY… ???

Let me quote you another hadith of Prophet in book no other than Sahih Bukhari
Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 4.375
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

… The Prophet said to the Ansar: “You will find after me some great
selfishness (UTHRAH). Then be patient till you meet Allah and meet His
Apostle at al-Kauthar (i.e. a fount in Paradise).” (Anas added:) But
we did not remain patient.

When I personally think about his hadith… the following things come in my mind and I have asked you the same question before you you never answered…
TELL ME WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE WHO DIDN’T HAVE PROBLEM WITH THE FIRST 3 CALIPHS WHO FOR THEIR GREED OF KHILAFAT LEFT THE FUNERAL SERVICES OF THE BELOVED PROPHET P.B.U.H. AND WHEN HAZRAT ALI A.S BECAME KHALEEFA EVEN THOUGH HE MADE IT CLEAR BEFORE THAT HE IS NOT GOING TO FOLLOW ANYTHING ELSE BESIDES QURAN AND SUNNAH.. THEY GO AGAINST SUCH A WISE CALIPH…AND NOT ONLY THAT MAWIYAH WHO CAME TO FIGHT AGAINST HAZRAT ALI A.S (AMEER UL MOMINEEN) FOR THIS GREED OF KHILAFAT THEY EVEN REGARD HIM HAS AMEER UL MOMINEEN..WHY DON’T YOU GUYS REGARD YAZEED AS NAUZUBILLAH AMEER UL MOMINEEN HE DID THE SAME THING HIS DAD did.. CAME TO WAR AGAINST SON OF HAZRAT ALI..THE FIRST TWO CALIPHS LEFT THE FUNERAL OF PROPHET MOHAMMAD P.B.U.H. in the greed of khilafat…YAZEED ARMY KILLED IMAM HUSSAIN AND HIS FAMILY AND LEFT THEM IN THE LAND OF KERBALA FOR THE GREED OF THIS KHILAFAT…CAN’T YOU SEE FOR YOURSELF HOW MESSED UP YOU BELIEVES ARE??? ISLAM WAS STILL A GROWING PLANT.. PROBABLY HAZRAT ALI DIDN’T WANT MUSLIM UMMAH TO FIGHT AMONG EACH OTHER… AND MADE IT CLEAR THAT HIS TEACHINGS WILL BE FROM QURAN AND SUNNAH AND WHAT THEY WANT IS SOMEONE FOR THEIR WORLDLY DESIRES AND APPARENTLY THEY CAME AND FOUGHT AGAINST HIM… AS Imam and protector of islam.. Hazrat Ali A.S. had to make it clear so everything is black and white for us… TO ME ITS GOOD HAZRAT ALI A.S. MADE THAT CLEAR SO PEOPLE DON’T CALL HIM GREEDY FOR POWER WHEN PEOPLE LIKE MAWIYA AND HAZRAT AYESHA CAME TO WAR AGAINST HIM..HE MADE HIS STAND CLEAR EVEN BEFORE HE BECAME KHALEEFA THAT HE WILL BE OUT THERE TO FOLLOW QURAN AND SUNNAH… ELSE HE WOULD BE BETTER OFF AS AN ADVISOR…NOW IF YOU HAVE BRAINS YOU WOULD BE SMART ENOUGH TO JUDGE WHOEVER COME AGAINST HIM…WHAT COULD HIS INTENSIONS BE..FOR SURE HAZRAT ALI DIDN’T HAVE ANY GREED FOR POWER?

What do you think about the following hadith…???
Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.586
Narrated Ibn al-Musaiyab:
“Some men from my companions will come to my Lake-Fount and they will
be driven away from it, and I will say, ‘O Lord, my companions!’ It
will be said, 'You have no knowledge of what they innovated after you
left: they turned APOSTATE as renegades (reverted from true Islam).”
(also Sahih Muslim, part 10, p64, also P59)

Now to innovate something… you need power don’t you… ?

Care to give references to your claim???

What you said contradicts … the sermon you quoted… made it quite clear.. Hazrat Ali A.S was not greedy for khilafat…Before you use agressive words against Mawla Ali… first learn was it Hazrat Ali A.S. who raged the battle or was it Bibi Ayesha or Mawiya..who came agianst the wise caliph. who was righteous and and wasn’t? Hazrat Ali A.S was granted sword (Zulfiqar) by Allah SWT there is no way he would have used it for any other reasons rather than defending Islam… else if his intensions were not right Allah SWT would not have awarded him with a sword if nauzubillah he would have to use it against innocent muslims.

"If you want me for your worldly ends, then I am not ready to serve as your instrument. Leave me and select someone else who may fulfil your ends. You have seen my past life that I am not prepared to follow anything except the Qur’an and sunnah and would not give up this principle for securing power. If you select someone else I would pay regard to the laws of the state and the constitution as a peaceful citizen should do. I have not at any stage tried to disrupt the collective existence of the Muslims by inciting revolt. The same will happen now. Rather, just as keeping the common good in view I have hitherto been giving correct advice, I would not grudge doing the same. If you let me in the same position it would be better for your worldly ends, because in that case I won’t have power in my hands so that I could stand in the way of your worldly affairs, and create an impediment against your hearts’ wishes. However, if you are determined on swearing allegiance on my hand, bear in mind that if you frown or speak against me I would force you to tread on the path of right, and in the matter of the right I would not care for anyone. If you want to swear allegiance even at this, you can satisfy your wish."

Read the part of the sermon I have highlighted… It makes it black and white… and makes it quite clear that Hazrat Ali A.S was not greedy for caliph.. now you are smart enough to judge what the intensions of people who came against might be and still if you have doubts Open the Quran and read the following verses…

O ye wives of the Prophet! Ye are not like any other women. If ye keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft of speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease aspire (to you), but utter customary speech.[33"32]

And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.[32:33]

The first command in this verse “stay in your houses” was violated by A-isha when she went to Iraq to organise a mischievous campaign against Ali about whom the Holy Prophet said:
“O Ali, you are to me as Harun was to Musa. You are my brother in this world and the hereafter. Your flesh is my flesh, your blood is my blood. You and me are from one and the same light.”
Quran clearly asks the wives of Prophet to stay at her house..and she disobeyed it to come to war against Hazrat Ali A.S. Now tell me who was righteous and who wasn’t.

Now let me quote you another ayat of Quran
“And Whoever kills a believer deliberately, his reward is Hell forever, and the Wrath of Allah is upon him, He cursed him and prepared a great punishment for him.” (Quran 4:93)

Now if you still not convinced on who was righteous in this war… Open your most authentic book and read the following hadith. I** am not trying to degrade her personality or something.. I am just quoting whats mentioned in your own books…feel free to verify any of the above references and tell me if they are wrong…**
Bukhari has recorded in the chapter “What happened in the houses of the Prophet’s wives” in the book “Jihad and Travel” of his Sahih, vol. 2, p. 125, that while delivering an address from the pulpit, the Holy Prophet pointed towards A-isha’s house and said: “Here lies the scandal; here lies the scandal; here lies the scandal, where the horn of Shaytan would be rising.” In the words of Sahih Muslim: "The Prophet came out of the house of A-isha and remarked: “Here is the head of infidelity where the horn of Shaytan will rise.” Refer to Sahih Muslim, vol. 2,0.502.

Show how lame your justification to the hadith was… Let me quote the hadith for you again…
“The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh.”
You yourself admit that only some of the Khaleefas were good and not all… and we all agree Yazeed for sure wasn’t a good one… and you also failed to provide names of 12 for which Prophet said the affairs of people would be conducted well as long as they are gonverned by 12… and you yourself made it clear that you refrained from some names because not all were good… as compare to Imams I mentioned 3 of the Imams were there during the time of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. Their knowledge was exampalory… Imam Ali A.S and Imam Jaffar Sadiq are real good examples… they never ran from battle field and alway stood for Islam.. there are no differences in teaching of one another…and our 12th Imam is Imam Mahdi A.S…for whom Prophet P.B.U.H. also mentioned about… For a minute cool down and think with an open mind…before you come up with excuses..???

MAY ALLAH HELP US ALL FOLLOW THE RIGHT PATH … AMEEN

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

Texan_Dude

To my above statement you had queried as:

The tragedy is that the highlighted words are not part of the Sermon; these are the words that I want to hear from his pious lips to be convinced that Hz. Ali (ra) was appointed as the natural successor to the Prophet (saw).

If indeed such appointment had taken place Hz. Ali (ra) would have indeed reminded people of such appointment. Keeping one’s silence at such a critical time serves no purpose but to spread more confusion and chaos.

Since Hz. Ali (ra) did not in divulge “knowledge that the Prophet had put in his bosom” so I will not try to second guess what the secret was.

And your guess will be just mere speculation. Or is it your claim that you have somehow managed to tap into that knowledge that the Prophet (saw) had put into Hz. Ali’s (ra) bosom?

I am quoting Hz. Ali (ra) from** Nahjul Balagha Letter 6 ** referring to election of Hz. Abu Bakr (ra), Hz Umar.(ra) and Hz. Uthman (ra).

Read that Hz. Ali (ra) considers the election of the first 3 Khaleefs to** by approval and pleasure of Allah (swt)!**

Now how can I or other Sunnis believe that Hz Ali (ra) had a problem with what Allah (ra) was pleased with!

Let’s see what you have to say to this?

*“Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah.

If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.”…………………….- * Nahjul Balagha Letter 6

And see what he has to say of those who refuse to accept this selection

If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.”

Now tell me do you want to heed the words of Hz. Ali (ra)?

I am sure that somehow you will try to wiggle out of this too.

To my statement that Hz. Ali (ra) was a very close and valued advisor and aide of his pious predecessors you had stated the following.

  1. You very well know that the Shias believe that most of the Companions except for a few (about 4 to 6 had deserted Islam (Allah forbid) including the first 3 Khaleefs (May Allah be pleased with them all).

  2. Shias believe that Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) denied Hz. Fatimah (ra) her right to land of Fadak thus earning wrath of Hz. Fatimah (ra)

  3. That Hz. Umar Al Khattab (ra) really ‘roughed’ and beat up Hz. Fatimah (ra) so badly that she lost her unborn son and the injuries sustained were the cause of her untimely death.

How can one be adviser to renegades of Islam?

How can Islam be served by advising the ones you accuse of subverting Islam?

Can you imagine the Supreme Court judge acting as an advisor to the Dons of the Mafia whose action led the death of one’s unborn son and later that of one’s beloved wife?

Sounds silly doesn’t it?

You have quoted the following saying of the Prophet (saw) from the Sahih Bukhari. “Fatimah is a part of me. Whoever makes her angry, makes me angry.”

  1. Care to tell in what context the Prophet said the above?

  2. Do you think Hz. Ali (ra) could ever earn Hz. Fatimah’s displeasure/anger?

I will really appreciate if you answer these two questions. Thanks in advance.

Do you really want to discuss this in a separate thread, if so, please open a new thread on the following topic - **“Fatimah is a part of me. Whoever makes her angry, makes me angry.” ** – and we will take it from there.

You tell me how could Hz Ali (ra) could become advisor and aide to such people, as you had claimed earlier?

The above statement made by me really took you by surprise, didn’t it? That you had to ask:

Well, this has been discussed and done with at the following thread ( all references from the Shia sources are provided):

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=136610&highlight=Kulthum

Read the words **"Some men from my companions” ** – Do you know that on the Prophet (saw)’s demise many new converts had left Islam as they did not want to give Zakah and claimed that since the Prophet (saw) has died they don’t have to follow commands of Islam.

I will address the other points raised by you later when I get the time.

My sincerest Ameen to the above

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

^ Regarding those who will come to the Prophet (saw) at his Lake-Fount… one should keep in mind how the Prophet (saw) described them... in a number of narrations (including in Sahih al Bukhari) he called them* 'asayhabi'* (not just, 'ashabi')… this is particularly revealing since as commentators point out this term shows them to be few in number… hence this turns the shi-ite argument on its head... shi-ites insist that most of the Prophet’s (saw) companions died as apostates, save a few believers, which is in direct contradiction of this hadith from al Bukhari which the very same shi-ites gleefully cite little realising that it destroys their own position!

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

Ibn Sadique… You are playing real ignorant… facts are infront of you… but you want to twist things around… and thats why you take part of sermons to fill your interests and ignore the later… Had you read the whole sermon Hazrat Ali A.S.. talked about you won’t have had a hard time making out what is he silent for… Now go grab a cup of coffee and read it with an open eye that is the sermon..what i quoted earlier was the sermon in Najul Balagah not my own words… Now clear your mind up and read the sermon cold mindedly I have highlighted… Even though had i posted before… but let me do it.. hoping this time you won’t just pick and choose parts of it for your interest.

If had I attempted to pluck the unripe fruit of Caliphate then by this the orchard would have been desolated and I too would have achieved nothing, like these people who cultivate on other’s land but can neither guard it, nor water it at proper time, nor reap any crop from it. The position of these people is that if I ask them to vacate it so that the owner should cultivate it himself and protect it, they say how greedy I am, while if I keep quiet they think I am afraid of death. They should tell me on what occasion did I ever feel afraid, or flew from battle-field for life, whereas every small or big encounter is proof of my bravery and a witness to my daring and courage. He who plays with swords and strikes against hillocks is not afraid of death. I am so familiar with death that even an infant is not so familiar with the breast of its mother. Hark! The reason for my silence is the knowledge that the Prophet has put in my bosom. If I divulge it you would get perplexed and bewildered. Let some days pass and you would know the reason of my inaction, and perceive with your own eyes what sorts of people would appear on this scene under the name of Islam, and what destruction they would bring about. My silence is because this would happen, otherwise it is not silence without reason."

http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/default.asp?url=5.htm](http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/default.asp?url=5.htm)

Now Mr… the sermon starts by talking about Caliphate… Later Hazrat Ali said “**if I ask them to vacate it so that the owner should cultivate it himself and protect it,” **Now isn’t it clear enough he is calling himself the owner…and why is he??? because Holy Prophet P.B.U.H. made him Mawla at ghadeer.
www.al-islam.org/ghadir

I have quoted the sermon one not but several times but you keep asking the same question..shows your ignorant or your struggle accepting the truth… Now tell me Mr…What does Hazrat Ali A.S. mean by Owner here??? Things are black and white.. and still you keep going in circles… asking same questions again and again…
A simple example of you playing ignorant was
Show how lame your justification to the hadith was… Let me quote the hadith for you again…
“The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh.”
You yourself admit that only some of the Khaleefas were good and not all… and we all agree Yazeed for sure wasn’t a good one… and you also failed to provide names of 12 for which Prophet said the affairs of people would be conducted well as long as they are gonverned by 12… and you yourself made it clear that you refrained from some names because not all were good… as compare to Imams I mentioned 3 of the Imams were there during the time of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. Their knowledge was exampalory… Imam Ali A.S and Imam Jaffar Sadiq are real good examples… they never ran from battle field and alway stood for Islam.. there are no differences in teaching of one another…and our 12th Imam is Imam Mahdi A.S…for whom Prophet P.B.U.H. also mentioned about… For a minute cool down and think with an open mind…before you come up with excuses..???

Another bunch of lame excuses to ignore the facts and truth Mr.
Are you telling the fact that he adviced the the first three caliphs… shows his loves and respect for them… Mr… you should honor him for what he did for the sake of Islam… Even after suffering so much he tried to protect Islam my serving as their advisors… Shows how in competent the first Three caliphs were… They were able to declare themselves caliphs but still had to go to Hazrat Ali A.S.(the Righteous) to seek advices… and Hazrat Ali A.S. ignoring all what they did and to the interest of islam helped them out… Mashallah… Ali Mawla… Like you said he was close advisors for the first thee caliphs… tell me who was Hazrat Ali A.S advisor… now wake up man..think about that doesn’t it show how suitable he was for this position..the first 3 caliphs had to seek help with him…???

I’ll reply othe queries later.

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

^ hopefully your next reply will be in English

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

^ a simple reply from a simple mind

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

^ one has to keep things simple for copy-and-paste charlatans... when you can't find a reply/argument to plagiarise from another site you end up writing the kind of gibberish TD has just posted... :-)

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

dude, your comments are lame, try again. and they show more about you than of TD.

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

^ pretty rich coming from someone whose contribution to this thread so far has been less than zero

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

Hmmm another lame excuse for being ignorant… Its amaizng I don’t see a single copy paste in my last thread beside the sermon of Mawla Ali A.S. I quoted from Najul Balagah.. HOW ABOUT BEING MAN ENOUGH WHAT HAVE I BEEN COPY PASTING IN MY LAST POST.. AND FROM WHERE DID I… hmm looks like someone is having hard time digesting truth… or defending his own believes…Is that the best excuse you could come up with… just blame me that my last post was copy paste..and ignore the facts… wah wah wah… Ali Mawla Ali Mawla Ali Mawla…

Atleast better than someone who is just come up with lame and dumb excuses to ignore the facts… … BUT OH WELL… who am I talking tooo… I asked one question and none of you guyzz answered.. and no its not a copy paste… lets see what lame excuse you have for this one…

TELL ME WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE WHO DIDN’T HAVE PROBLEM WITH THE FIRST 3 CALIPHS WHO FOR THEIR GREED OF KHILAFAT LEFT THE FUNERAL SERVICES OF THE BELOVED PROPHET P.B.U.H. AND WHEN HAZRAT ALI A.S BECAME KHALEEFA EVEN THOUGH HE MADE IT CLEAR BEFORE THAT HE IS NOT GOING TO FOLLOW ANYTHING ELSE BESIDES QURAN AND SUNNAH.. THEY GO AGAINST SUCH A WISE CALIPH…AND NOT ONLY THAT MAWIYAH WHO CAME TO FIGHT AGAINST HAZRAT ALI A.S (AMEER UL MOMINEEN) FOR THIS GREED OF KHILAFAT THEY EVEN REGARD HIM HAS AMEER UL MOMINEEN..WHY DON’T YOU GUYS REGARD YAZEED AS NAUZUBILLAH AMEER UL MOMINEEN HE DID THE SAME THING HIS DAD did.. CAME TO WAR AGAINST SON OF HAZRAT ALI..THE FIRST TWO CALIPHS LEFT THE FUNERAL OF PROPHET MOHAMMAD P.B.U.H. in the greed of khilafat…YAZEED ARMY KILLED IMAM HUSSAIN AND HIS FAMILY AND LEFT THEM IN THE LAND OF KERBALA FOR THE GREED OF THIS KHILAFAT…CAN’T YOU SEE FOR YOURSELF HOW MESSED UP YOU BELIEVES ARE???

Oh let me guess… this one is not in english for you???

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

Texan Dude

I will respond after you have completed adding whatever is still left over.

So far you have been just quoting stuff from your own books which have no ‘authority’ for me (and other Muslims) to believe in.

Please quote with references from books that I have faith in their authenticity and trustworthiness.

And note that I have always quoted from your books with references.

Knowing that Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim have no relevance for you I have deliberately refrained from quoting from them, otherwise I can really give you enough to read for two weekends.

Please don’t forget to address the following that I had asked you.

Let’s keep this out because I can’t respond in kind.