Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
UNcle ----ee humray baray main baat ker rahay hain aap ?
BHai main shia nahi haun…
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Bihar ke logon ki kia baat hay chawal banany main, roz chawal or nay naam ke saat. yeh to nahi maloom Shia hote hain keh sunni, par jin se humara wasta raha hay, nemaz o tilawat qaza hote nahi daikhi. (Nick Bao Bihari ka to nahi pata) Ahle bait ka shirk ki had tak ehtram karte hain.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Its been more than 1000 years dude.. and you are looking out for arab lineage…
Any references… sounds I am a shia but not a syed.. another rumor like several going on in this forum.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
We follow the ones Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. mentioned about…
The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh.”
References:
Sahih Muslim (Arabic version)
Kitab al-Imaara,
1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia,
v3, p1453, Tradition #6
Sahih Muslim, (English version)
Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),
v3, p1010, Tradition #4478
Hadith #3394 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)
Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet saying, “There will be twelve commanders (Amir).” He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, “All of them will be from Quraysh.”
Sahih al-Bukhari (English)
Hadith: 9.329, Kitabul Ahkam.
Sahih al-Bukhari (Arabic)
4:165, Kitabul Ahkam.
Hadith #6682 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
You still dont get it do you? I gave clear explaination regarding the prayer and wazzu, these could have been easily conveyed to next generations by actions without writing.
WTH is sigah? Are you two year old…maybe twitbrains can understand sigah, it is not a word I have heard before and I am sure will not hear it again unless its coming from another thickbrained person.
I see how you are dodging the question I asked.
Here it is again, dont run, come on be brave and answer it.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Texan_Dude - You should bear in mind that Prophet (saw) was very precise in all what he stated. The ahadith that you have quoted correctly clearly state the relationship between Quraysh and Khilafaat.
Note that the Prophet (saw) **never ** referred to **Bani Hashim ** (his own clan) or **progeny of Abdul Muttalib ** (his grandfather) but left it to the Quraysh at large.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Kaleem
Following is the translation of verses and the tafseer I got from Holy Quran…
[32:23] And 1825 Indeed gave We unto Moses the Book, so be thou* not in doubt of recieving this from Him (God) and it (torah) made We a guidance unto the Children of Israel.
[32:24] And 1825 of them made We Leaders(Imam)* to guide (the people) by(a) Our Command as they were steadfast (in the calamities); and they of Our signs were quite certain.
Verse 23…
The life history of Moses is identical with that of the Holy Prophet:
- Moses was given Torah and the Holy Prophet was given Holy Quran.
- Moses was under the command to fight his enemies, the Holy Prophet was also ordered to do the same.
- Moses had prayed to God to assist him with Aaron as his Deputy, the Holy Prophet was given Ali A.S. as his deputy
- Moses was victorious against Pharoah’s forces and the Holy Prophet was granted triumph over his enemies
- According to the Torah there were twelve disciples of Moses and the Holy Prophet was succeeded by Twelve Imams.
a) There are several interpretations - but the most appropriate one is – "Thou O’ Prophet’ - meaning the followers - be not in doubt about Moses recieving the book - referred here
b) Faith and certainity are steadfastness are the essential considerations of the status of Imammat – none was declared an Imam without being qualified with these qualities.
Verse 24..
This is a reference to the twelve Holy Imam of Ahlul Bait the divinely comissioned guides to mankind on the path of Islam and the cutodians of the final word of God (the Holy Imams) - with whom the Holy Prophet left the Holy Book to secure it intact against any corruption or Tahreef and to give to mankind its correct interpretations as the authorized deputies of the Last Apostle of God.
Below are some hadith’s I found in references to the above…
Ahmad and Al-Hakim and others have narrated similarly from Masrooq who said: "We were sitting one evening with Abdullah (ibn Mas’ud). We were reciting the Qur’an, then a man asked him: “O Abu Abdur-Rahman, did you ask the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) how many Caliphs will rule this nation?” Abdullah said: “No one asked me about this before you from the time I arrived in Iraq.” He said: "We asked him (the Prophet s.a.w.s.), he said: “Twelve, (like) the number of the Chiefs of Bani Israel.”
References:
Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, 1:398 and 406.
Al-Hakimal-Nisaburi, Mustadrak , 4:501
Al-Dhahabi, *Talkhis *, 4:501.
Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani, Fath al-Bari 16:339.
Ali b. Abu Bakr al-Haythami, Majma’ al-Zawa’id 5:190.
Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, vol 12.
Ibn Mas’ud said: "The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) said: “There will be Caliphs after me, whose number is like those of the companions of Musa.”
Ibn Kathir, Ta’rikh, 6:248.
Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal, 13:27.
Al-Haskani , Shawahid al-Tanzil, 1:455, Tradition No. 626.
Al-Suyuti, Tarikh al-Khulafa, Vol 10.
[Al-Suyuti or al-Tabarani], Jami’ al-Saghir 1:75.
Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal, 13:27.
The traditions assert that the number of authorities are twelve and all of them are from Quraysh, and, Imam Ali (peace be upon him) clarified it in his speech that they shall be from the Quraysh when he said: “Surely Imams will be from the Quraysh, they have been planted in this line through Hashim. It would not suit others nor would others be suitable as heads of affairs.”
Imam 'Ali b. Abi Talib [a], Nahjul Balagha, Sermon no. 142.
http://al-islam.org/twelve/2.htm
Holy Prophet P.B.U.H. said :
“Are you not pleased to have the position (manzilah) in relation to me as that Aaron had in relation to Moses?”
Sunni Refernces:
- Al Bukhari in his Sahih (al Matba’at al Khayriyyah, Egypt, 1320) in “Kitab bad’ al Khalq”, “Bab manaqib `Ali ibn Abi Talib” and “Bab ghazwat Tabuk,” in two places, records this tradition
- Muslim in his Sahih (Matba`at Bulaq, 1290), “Kitab fada’il al Sahabah,” through three chains;
- al Tirmidhi, in his Sahih, ii, 301;
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000156.php
Following are some references in Old Testament:
Ibn Kathir says:
We see the following prophecy in the Taurat which is in the hands of the Jews and the Christians: "Indeed Allah, the Exalted, has given Ibrahim (a.s.) the glad tidings of Isma’il, and he has bestowed a favour and multiplied it and placed in his progeny twelve mighty (personalities)."And he says: Ibn Taymiyya said: "And these are the same, regarding whom the Prophet (s.a.w.s.) has given the glad tidings in the tradition of Jabir bin Samurah and stated their number; indeed this is with regard to the Imams and the Hour will not come till they last. And many of those who accepted Islam from among Jews think they are the same Imams of the Rafidi sect."http://al-islam.org/twelve/3.htm#r13
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
can you name all twelve of them? As Prophet (saww) told people on several occasions that there will be twelve commanders (khalifa/Amir).
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
You can take note in the hadith that Rasool Allah (saw) did not name any of ‘twelve commanders (khalifa/Amir)’.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Read the following hadiths… It answer your queries…
“It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere to them both, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my Progeny, that is my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise).”
“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
These are the words spoken by the Prophet (saw) at Khum Ghadeer “man kuntu mawlah fa Ali mawlah” - Meaning: “For whomever I am his mawlah, 'Ali is his mawlah."
You have erroneously translated the word Mawlah to mean Leader which is completely wrong.
Imam Ibn Al-Atheer says that the word (mawlah) in the Arabic language could only mean:
Rabb = Lord
Maalik = owner
Mun`im = benefactor/Advisor
Mu’tiq = liberator
Naseer = helper
Muheb = lover
Haleef = ally
Aabd = slave (for example: Zaid ibn haretha was the mawlah of the Prophet (saw))
Sihr = brother-in-law
Ibn al `am = Son of the Uncle (Cousin)
In no sense the word Mawlah can be translated as leader!
So from the above the best meanings which fit in well for “Mawlah” are = benefactor/Advisor, liberator, helper and ally
This is exactly what Hz. Ali had in mind when he said the following:
*“Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. **If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.” ** * - Nahjul Balagha Sermon 91 - [When people decided to swear allegiance at Amir al-mu’minin’s hand after the murder of `Uthman]
The above statement is very important:
-
Hz. Ali (ra) did not see fit to remind the people that the Prophet (saw) had chosen him as the Emir/Leader over the Muslims at Khum Ghadeer as it would have been the best to ‘promote’ his claim as the leader of the Muslims.
-
He said that: “It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs” He showed no objection to any other to be elected as an Emir/Leader for the Muslims.
-
Importantly he also stated: “. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief” I am better MAWLAH (Counsellor benefactor/Advisor, liberator, helper and ally) than as Chief/LEADER).
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
[QUOTE]
Following is the translation of verses and the tafseer I got from Holy Quran....
[32:23] And 1825 Indeed gave We unto Moses the Book, so be thou* not in doubt of recieving this from Him (God) and it (torah) made We a guidance unto the Children of Israel.
[32:24] And 1825 of them made We Leaders(Imam)* to guide (the people) by(a) Our Command as they were steadfast (in the calamities); and they of Our signs were quite certain.
[/QUOTE]
Where did that number of 1825 come from? Right there your source of the translation is suspect.
[QUOTE]
Verse 23....
The life history of Moses is identical with that of the Holy Prophet:
- Moses was given Torah and the Holy Prophet was given Holy Quran.
- Moses was under the command to fight his enemies, the Holy Prophet was also ordered to do the same.
- Moses had prayed to God to assist him with Aaron as his Deputy, the Holy Prophet was given Ali A.S. as his deputy
- Moses was victorious against Pharoah's forces and the Holy Prophet was granted triumph over his enemies
- According to the Torah there were twelve disciples of Moses and the Holy Prophet was succeeded by Twelve Imams.
[/QUOTE]
This is a nice try, but there are no parallels to be drawn here. One ayath is a continuation of the other and is talking about Moses....(baal ki khaal nikal kar twelve Imam ko beech main lay aao)
[QUOTE]
a) There are several interpretations - but the most appropriate one is -- "Thou O' Prophet' - meaning the followers - be not in doubt about Moses recieving the book - referred here
b) Faith and certainity are steadfastness are the essential considerations of the status of Imammat -- none was declared an Imam without being qualified with these qualities.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
Verse 24..
This is a reference to the twelve Holy Imam of Ahlul Bait the divinely comissioned guides to mankind on the path of Islam and the cutodians of the final word of God (the Holy Imams) - with whom the Holy Prophet left the Holy Book to secure it intact against any corruption or Tahreef and to give to mankind its correct interpretations as the authorized deputies of the Last Apostle of God.
[/QUOTE]
No its not. If Allah wanted to make such a refrence he would have spelled it out, plus I do not see a number anyweher.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
[quote=“Ibn Sadique”]
These are the words spoken by the Prophet (saw) at Khum Ghadeer “man kuntu mawlah fa Ali mawlah” - Meaning: “For whomever I am his mawlah, 'Ali is his mawlah."
You have erroneously translated the word Mawlah to mean Leader which is completely wrong.
Imam Ibn Al-Atheer says that the word (mawlah) in the Arabic language could only mean:
Rabb = Lord
Maalik = owner
Mun`im = benefactor/Advisor
Mu’tiq = liberator
Naseer = helper
Muheb = lover
Haleef = ally
Aabd = slave (for example: Zaid ibn haretha was the mawlah of the Prophet (saw))
Sihr = brother-in-law
Ibn al `am = Son of the Uncle (Cousin)
In no sense the word Mawlah can be translated as leader!
So from the above the best meanings which fit in well for “Mawlah” are = benefactor/Advisor, liberator, helper and ally
This is exactly what Hz. Ali had in mind when he said the following:
“Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.” - Nahjul Balagha Sermon 91 - [When people decided to swear allegiance at Amir al-mu’minin’s hand after the murder of `Uthman]
The above statement is very important:
-
Hz. Ali (ra) did not see fit to remind the people that the Prophet (saw) had chosen him as the Emir/Leader over the Muslims at Khum Ghadeer as it would have been the best to ‘promote’ his claim as the leader of the Muslims.
-
He said that: “It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs” He showed no objection to any other to be elected as an Emir/Leader for the Muslims.
-
Importantly he also stated: “. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief” *
Ibn Sadique…
There are other meaining to the word Mawla compare to what Imam Ibn Al-Atheer quoted A detail interpretation on the meaning of Mawla can be found on the following website… Not only Prophet Mohammad said that but made people pay their alligance to it. You can twist the meanings as much as you want but the whole even stands for itself…
http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/meaning.asp
Anywayzz… answer to your queries are best answered in the sermon of Hazrat Ali A.S.
In short, when their insistence increased beyond limits, Amir al-mu’minin delivered this sermon wherein he clarified that “If you want me for your worldly ends, then I am not ready to serve as your instrument. Leave me and select someone else who may fulfil your ends. You have seen my past life that I am not prepared to follow anything except the Qur’an and sunnah and would not give up this principle for securing power. If you select someone else I would pay regard to the laws of the state and the constitution as a peaceful citizen should do. I have not at any stage tried to disrupt the collective existence of the Muslims by inciting revolt. The same will happen now. Rather, just as keeping the common good in view I have hitherto been giving correct advice, I would not grudge doing the same. If you let me in the same position it would be better for your worldly ends, because in that case I won’t have power in my hands so that I could stand in the way of your worldly affairs, and create an impediment against your hearts’ wishes. However, if you are determined on swearing allegiance on my hand, bear in mind that if you frown or speak against me I would force you to tread on the path of right, and in the matter of the right I would not care for anyone. If you want to swear allegiance even at this, you can satisfy your wish.”
The impression Amir al-mu’minin had formed about these people is fully corroborated by later events. Consequently, when those who had sworn allegiance with worldly motives did not succeed in their objectives they broke away and rose against his government with baseless allegations.
http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/92.htm
Ibn Sadique…Even if we take your meanings of Mawla…Look at the hadith below
“The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh.”
“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”
Even taking your interpretation of mawla..as advisor… Prophet said the affairs of people will continue to be conducted well as long as they are govenred by twelve man.. and than he made mawla…whatever you choose… Advisor, Liberator or Leader the first hadith fits best in context for Mawla Ali..the first Imam.. Hazrat Ali A.S.*
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
http://al-islam.org/quran/bismillah.gif
وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ فَلَا تَكُن فِي مِرْيَةٍ مِّن لِّقَائِهِ وَجَعَلْنَاهُ هُدًى لِّبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ {23}
[Shakir 32:23] And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.
[Yusufali 32:23] We did indeed aforetime give the Book to Moses: be not then in doubt of its reaching (thee): and We made it a guide to the Children of Israel.
[Pickthal 32:23] We verily gave Moses the Scripture; so be not ye in doubt of his receiving it; and We appointed it a guidance for the Children of Israel.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 32:23]
The lives of Musa and the Holy Prophet are similar in many ways. Musa was given the Tawrat and the Quran was given to the Holy Prophet. Musa was ordered to fight his enemies and the Holy Prophet was also commanded to do the same. Musa had prayed to Allah to assist him with Harun as his deputy and the Holy Prophet was given Ali as his brother, successor and supporter. Musa’s wife Safura fought against Yusha bin Nun and A-isha, the Holy Prophet’s wife, fought against Ali in the battle of Jamal.
“Be not in doubt” is addressed to the people through the Holy Prophet.
وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ {24}
[Shakir 32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.
[Yusufali 32:24] And We appointed, from among them, leaders, giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.
[Pickthal 32:24] And when they became steadfast and believed firmly in Our revelations, We appointed from among them leaders who guided by Our command.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 32:24]
The twelve Imams of the Ahl ul Bayt are the divinely commissioned leaders to guide mankind, and they are the custodians of the final word of Allah, with whom the Holy Prophet left the Quran (see hadith al thaqalayn) so that its meanings and application may not be corrupted by the hypocrites. Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 124. Kaleem,
Not Only I gave you the translation of the ayat… which quite matched what you quoted.. but also give you the hadith of Prophet MOhammad P.B.U.H. which supports what I mentioned above…
Well if everything in quran is spelled out.. why didn’t Allah SWT spelled out Rasool… Why did Prophet gave hadith’s on the 12 number corresponding the Hazrat Mousa…? Why did Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. made Hazrat Ali A.S. maula and made people pay alligance to him?
www.al-islam.org/ghadir
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
^ This is what you(as Shias) believe in (ghadir) . I see how you side stepped the "1825" number? So was that copy and paste mistake or fabricated translation like the rest of the tafseer that you keep posting i.e. drawing a parallel between Moses and twelve Imams.
You did not give me the quranic Ayath that talks about twelve Imams and certainly did not prove anything related to "divine commission" of the Imams. If the twelve Imams were responsible for Quran, how come Hazrat Usman is the one who did the compilation? Never mind this will open up another bash Hazrat Usman thread.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
1825 was probably the exact ayat number in quran or something I think the ayat next to it had a number greater and that was not copy paste that was me typing stuff from the quran I have.. if Imam in the above refers to Prophets why didn’t Allah SWT said Prophet .. and made it clear like you said it would had if it was for Imam why not than for Prophets???
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Kaleem since you doubt the authenticiy of the translation of the ayats I gave you.. even though it says the same thing your translation quotes…I have read the commentary of the quran online I posted below and checked in an English and an urdu Quran and they all the same. Since my knowledge of Quran is limited, and you are having a hard time seeing the coorelation of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. with Hazrat Mousa A.S. eventhough I have given you hadith’s along with references… Let me ask you a few questions… from your own translation… Correct me if I am wrong… Ayat 32:23 first assures that a book was given to Prophet Moses A.S. and than its used as an example for muslims to be not in doubt… Why would Allah SWT **first talk about the book Allah SWT revealed to Prophet Moses and than ask muslims to not doubt of its reaching.. now tell me doesn’t it mean that Allah SWT uses Tawrat as an example to show muslims not to doubt on the books being revealed to Prophet from GOD ( which in our case is Quran)… Can’t you see for yourself Allah SWT uses Tawrat as an example so muslims don’t doubt book revealed to Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. and Allah futher goes on mentioning about Imams as source of guidance after showing this parallelism… Now tell me if the second verse was not for Imams. Why didn’t Allah SWT just said Rasool or Prophet instead…? **
Read the second ayat:
And We appointed, from among them, leaders, giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.
Look at the whole life history of Hazrat Ali A.S. and quote me one incident he disobeyed command of Allah SWT.
Nauzubillah if he wasn’t the righteous why would Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. say such hadith’s.
**“The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh.” **
“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”
“I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate; whoever intends to enter the city should come to its gate.”
“Are you not pleased to have the position (manzilah) in relation to me as that Aaron had in relation to Moses?”
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/3.html
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/5.html
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/6.html
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/7.html
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/8.html
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
**Texan Dude ** – It is not my style to twist the meanings to win an argument!
In fact to me your interpretation of Hz. Ali (ra)’s Sermon 91 [from Nahjul Balagha] goes against him.
You (Shia) claim is that Prophet (saw) had appointed Hz. Ali (ra) as his successor on the direct command of Allah (swt) at Khum Ghadeer.
Isn’t Hz. Ali (ra) duty bound to remind the people of his Divine appointment?
For instance we have the example of Prophet (saw):
- He was never tired to telling the people that he was appointed as the Messenger of Allah (swt) and what his mission was all about. [a few examples given below].
I am Muhammad, the unlettered prophet of Allah. I am Muhammad, the unlettered prophet of Allah. I am Muhammad, the unlettered prophet of Allah. There will be no prophet after me. - (Musnad Ahmad)
I am Muhammad, I am Ahmad, I am the effacer and infidelity shall be erased through me; I am the assembler. People shall be assembled on Doomsday after my time. And I am the last in the sense that no prophet shall succeed me. - (Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Muatta’)
*I have been sent by Allah to carry His Divine message to the whole world.
I am Muhammad, I am Ahmad, I am the effacer and infidelity shall be erased through me; I am the assembler. People shall be assembled on Doomsday after my time. And I am the last in the sense that no Prophet shall succeed me. * (Bukhari, Muslim, Tirimzi, Mishkawt)
- Even when under the pressure of Quraish his dear uncle Abu Talib requested him to tone down his opposition the Quraish, his answer was uncompromising and he said the following: 'O my uncle, by Allah, if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left in return for my giving up this cause, I would not give it up until Allah makes Truth victorious, or I die in His service.
Read the sermon 91 again and you will note that Hz. Ali (ra) do not even once mention the incidence of Khum Ghadeer or his divine appointment as the successor of the Prophet (saw).
This was the **Golden opportunity ** he had to remind the people of this Divine appointment to be the rightful successor to the Prophet (saw). He had no need to practice Taqiyyah as all the people were clamouring for him to be the Khaleef.
Do let me know why?
By saying the following “I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief" he has tacitly accepted that he had no ‘automatic divine right’ to the Khilaafat.
Keep in mind that the Prophet (saw) referred to the Quraish and not to Bani Hashim [his own clan] nor his progeny through ( Hz. Fatimah and Hz. Ali – May Allah be pleased with them both).
**This hadith does not refer to the 12 Imams of the Ithna 'Ashariya Shias.
And not all the Shias believe in the 12 Imams you are implying to.**
For your information [maybe it has slipped your mind] Hz. Abu Bakr as Siddique (ra), Hz. Umar Al Farooq (ra), Hz. Uthman Al Ghani (ra) Hz. Ali Karam Allah wajhu (ra), Hz. Hassan ibn Ali (ra) hz. Ameer Muawiyah (ra) and Hz. Umar bin Abdul Aziz (ra) were all from the tribe of the Quraish.
The Khaleefs of on Bani Umaiyyah were from Quraish and that of Bani Abbas were from the Prophet’s own clan [Bani Hashim]
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
And nauzubillah you think Hazrat Ali A.S was tired to remind people of his divine appointment… Mr. had you even bothered to give a brief look to the sermon I posted… you won’t be talking such things… The sermon stands for itself. Let me quote you the part of the sermon you probably missed.
http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/default.asp?url=92.htm
I am not prepared to follow anything except the Qur’an and sunnah and would not give up this principle for securing power…
If you let me in the same position it would be better for your worldly ends, because in that case I won’t have power in my hands so that I could stand in the way of your worldly affairs, and create an impediment against your hearts’ wishes. However, if you are determined on swearing allegiance on my hand, bear in mind that if you frown or speak against me I would force you to tread on the path of right, and in the matter of the right I would not care for anyone. If you want to swear allegiance even at this, you can satisfy your wish."
Hazrat Ali A.S. knew alot of people were using Khilafat for their worldy greeds..and he wanted to run the state by teachings of Quran.. and knew some people would rebel and come to war against him causing the blood shed of alot of people… Thats why based on the situation he wanted to clear things up… YOU TELL ME AS A KHALEEFA, HAZRAT ALI A.S. HAD BEEN AMEER UL MOMINEEN… WHAT WRONG DID HAZRAT ALI A.S DO THAT BIBI AYESHA AND MAHWIYA came to war against him…? he probably want to clarify it in the start.. its amazing a person came against ameer ul momineen and later you guyz called him ameer ul momineen too..
As far as Hazrat Ali A.S. not reminding people about this divine right the following sermon answers the question.
If had I attempted to pluck the unripe fruit of Caliphate then by this the orchard would have been desolated and I too would have achieved nothing, like these people who cultivate on other’s land but can neither guard it, nor water it at proper time, nor reap any crop from it. The position of these people is that if I ask them to vacate it so that the owner should cultivate it himself and protect it, they say how greedy I am, while if I keep quiet they think I am afraid of death. They should tell me on what occasion did I ever feel afraid, or flew from battle-field for life, whereas every small or big encounter is proof of my bravery and a witness to my daring and courage. He who plays with swords and strikes against hillocks is not afraid of death. I am so familiar with death that even an infant is not so familiar with the breast of its mother. Hark! The reason for my silence is the knowledge that the Prophet has put in my bosom. If I divulge it you would get perplexed and bewildered. Let some days pass and you would know the reason of my inaction, and perceive with your own eyes what sorts of people would appear on this scene under the name of Islam, and what destruction they would bring about. My silence is because this would happen, otherwise it is not silence without reason."
**http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/default.asp?url=5.htm
**Let me quote you the part of the sermon again incase you missed it
" Let some days pass and you would know the reason of my inaction, and perceive with your own eyes what sorts of people would appear on this scene under the name of Islam, and what destruction they would bring about. My silence is because this would happen, otherwise it is not silence without reason."
TELL ME WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE WHO DIDN’T HAVE PROBLEM WITH THE FIRST 3 CALIPHS WHO FOR THEIR GREED OF KHILAFAT LEFT THE FUNERAL SERVICES OF THE BELOVED PROPHET P.B.U.H. AND WHEN HAZRAT ALI A.S BECAME KHALEEFA EVEN THOUGH HE MADE IT CLEAR BEFORE THAT HE IS NOT GOING TO FOLLOW ANYTHING ELSE BESIDES QURAN AND SUNNAH.. THEY GO AGAINST SUCH A WISE CALIPH…AND NOT ONLY THAT MAWIYAH WHO CAME TO FIGHT AGAINST HAZRAT ALI A.S (AMEER UL MOMINEEN) FOR THIS GREED OF KHILAFAT THEY EVEN REGARD HIM HAS AMEER UL MOMINEEN..WHY DON’T YOU GUYS REGARD YAZEED AS NAUZUBILLAH AMEER UL MOMINEEN HE DID THE SAME THING HIS DAD did.. CAME TO WAR AGAINST SON OF HAZRAT ALI..THE FIRST TWO CALIPHS LEFT THE FUNERAL OF PROPHET MOHAMMAD P.B.U.H. YAZEED ARMY KILLED IMAM HUSSAIN AND HIS FAMILY AND LEFT THEM IN THE LAND OF KERBALA FOR THE GREED OF THIS KHILAFAT…CAN’T YOU SEE FOR YOURSELF HOW MESSED UP YOU BELIEVES ARE??? ISLAM WAS STILL A GROWING PLANT.. PROBABLY HAZRAT ALI DIDN’T WANT MUSLIM UMMAH TO FIGHT AMONG EACH OTHER… AND MADE IT CLEAR THAT HIS TEACHINGS WILL BE FROM QURAN AND SUNNAH AND WHAT THEY WANT IS SOMEONE FOR THEIR WORLDLY DESIRES AND APPARENTLY THEY CAME AND FOUGHT AGAINST HIM… AS Imam and protector of islam.. Hazrat Ali A.S. had to make it clear so everything is black and white for us… TO ME ITS GOOD HAZRAT ALI A.S. MADE THAT CLEAR SO PEOPLE DON’T CALL HIM GREEDY FOR POWER WHEN PEOPLE LIKE MAWIYA AND HAZRAT AYESHA CAME TO WAR AGAINST HIM..HE MADE HIS STAND CLEAR EVEN BEFORE HE BECAME KHALEEFA THAT HE WILL BE OUT THERE TO FOLLOW QURAN AND SUNNAH… ELSE HE WOULD BE BETTER OFF AS AN ADVISOR…NOW IF YOU HAVE BRAINS YOU WOULD BE SMART ENOUGH TO JUDGE WHOEVER COME AGAINST HIM…WHAT COULD HIS INTENSIONS BE..FOR SURE HAZRAT ALI DIDN’T HAVE ANY GREED FOR POWER?
An example for him being quite can be seen right here…
.When the Holy Prophet died Abu Sufyan was not in Medina. He was coming back when on his way he got the news of this tragedy. At once he enquired who had become the leader and Chief. He was told that people had paid allegiance to Abu Bakr. On hearing this the acknowledged mischief-monger of Arabia went into deep thought and eventually went to Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib with a proposal. He said to him, "Look, these people have by contrivance made over the Caliphate to the Taym and deprived Banu Hashim of it for good, and after himself this man would place over our heads a haughty man of Banu Adi. Let us go to Ali ibn Abi Talib and ask him to get out of his house and take to arms to secure his right." So taking Abbas with him he came to `Ali and said: “Let me your hand; I pay allegiance to you and if anyone rises in opposition I would fill the streets of Medina with men of cavalry and infantry.” This was the most delicate moment for Amir al-mu’minin. He regarded himself as the true head and successor of the Prophet while a man with the backing of his tribe and party like Abu Sufyan was ready to support him. Just a signal was enough to ignite the flames of war. But Amir al-mu’minin’s foresight and right judgement saved the Muslims from civil war as his piercing eyes perceived that this man wanted to start civil war by rousing the passions of tribal partisanship and distinction of birth, so that Islam should be struck with a convulsion that would shake it to its roots. Amir al-mu’minin therefore rejected his counsel and admonished him severely and spoke forth the words, whereby he has stopped people from mischief mongering, and undue conceit, and declared his stand to be that for him there were only two courses - either to take up arms or to sit quietly at home. If he rose for war there was no supporter so that he could suppress these rising insurgencies. The only course left was quietly to wait for the opportunity till circumstances were favourable.
Nice try Mr… but the names you quoted above still don’t add to 12… Outta curosity why did you skipped Yazeed L.A.
You can try as much as you want… Even your own interpretation of word Mawla suites hazrat Ali A.S. the best fit for the hadith incase you missed it last time let me quote it for you again.
**“The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh.” **
“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”
You replaced the word mawla with adivisor or Liberator…but doesn’t it still make him fit the right context.. A good example of Hazrat Ali A.S. being a perfect choice can also be seen in the following thread.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=133060&referrerid=26596
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Why did the prophet (pbuh) choose Hazrat Abu Bakr instead of Hazrat Ali to lead prayer when he was nearing death?
If Hazrat Ali did have such a divine right to be successor, why didn't he claim it and instead swore allegiance to Hazrat Abu Bakr?
There are no sahih hadith or Quranic sources to prove any of your arguments.