A Pakistani Girl

[gudiaali]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@bella88

this thread is about pakistani women first of all, not about how western women. and no you cannot compare how women are treated in the west to pakistan. there is some inequality here as well, but nothing to the extent of how it is over there.
you clearly have no idea how tough life is for an average woman in pakistan who comes from a rural area and from lower socioeconomic background.
lol ‘forcing’ wives to earn?? okay. guess how many women are pakistan are FORCED as well? all those maasis and cleaning ladies that come to your home in pakistan, what about them having to work so hard? again, this comfortable luxurious housewive life is only granted to the RICH pakistani women, NOT majority pakistani women who actually live in rural areas. rural women who are working hard physical labor such as farming, working in factories, laying bricks, and many come to cities to work as domestic servants.

this is more of a matter of economy of Pakistan than the women’s issue. if you know Pakistan so well ,then do not factor out that there are men too coming to larger cities to work as domestic servants. And you would find men working in rural areas too.

[bella88]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@gudiaali

point out but do not over generalize.
its not about ignoring, but if someone tells you it doesn’t happen to all and doesn’t happen to them then you take that as they are ignoring or denying anything?
why not be open minded, liberal and mature person and accept that good things and bad things happen everywhere, all nationalities.

bad things do happen everywhere. i never said it only happens in pakistan but this thread is about pakistan, isn’t it? strange how people are denying these things. not every single woman but lets not kid ourselves, the majority of women are not given the rights or treated the same way as men in pakistan. there is clear sexist double standards for women even in middle class and upper middle class but the poorer the socioeconomic class, the worse these women are treated. sadly, a huge number of people in Pakistan falls into that class as poverty and illiteracy are rampant, and thats where you can see how badly women are treated.

[partyslims]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@PyariCgudia

There is a source of confusion, because most of us urban girls, and Pakistanis raised in safer parts of the world don’t go through these things. It’s not a cultural issue, it’s a law and order issue.
.

I disagree.

I’ve known urban girls who have been assaulted (by household help) and kept it quiet because of the shame.

And they have also been ridiculed for skin color, height, facial features etc. You know, how certain aunties pass snide remarks to them? Those things do happen in urban settings.

[bella88]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@gudiaali

this is more of a matter of economy of Pakistan than the women’s issue. if you know Pakistan so well ,then do not factor out that there are men too coming to larger cities to work as domestic servants. And you would find men working in rural areas too.

you’re the one who mentioned how western women are ‘forced’ to work. so please, factor economy of western countries too before you make such claims.

[bella88]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

People need to stop getting offended about these topics. The more we talk about human rights violation and women’s rights, the more awareness there will be. there are many NGO’s and charity organizations in pakistan, actively working to help women get education, health coverage, reproductive health rights, and helping those women who have been abused, raped. If we keep ignoring/denying what goes on, such things will go on forever. if we want women to get equal rights in pakistan and put an end to so such sexist society which favors birth of sons and mourns birth of daughters, the first step is to actually recognize that it’s happening. even if abuse of women happens in other countries, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t talk about it happening in Pakistan.

[gudiaali]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@bella88

you’re the one who mentioned how western women are ‘forced’ to work. so please, factor economy of western countries too before you make such claims.

i wrote all such things happens all over the world.

[shaasavera]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@Maula_Jatt

Sure you dont mean India?

I kidd. As you were.

Why is it necessary to bring in India when no one has mentioned it, or is doing a comparison or nobody of that background has brought up that comparison?
India has issues and i’m not going to deny it. Actually some online groups have mentioned the cattle thing. Sometimes prized animals like camels in UAE are treated better than desi labourers also. Neither will I generalise that all are like that. No going to interfere and comment on this.

[Mezhgan]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@bella88 and @gudiaali

Most people are “forced” to work by society. It is society and economics that “forces” people to work, not their spouses/families. Unless one lives in a communist country where the state provides everything, one has to work in order pay for food, clothing, shelter, medical care and the other necessities in life. I’m not sure why having to work is lumped in as a “women’s issue.”

[bella88]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@Mezhgan

@bella88 and @gudiaali

Most people are “forced” to work by society. It is society and economics that “forces” people to work, not their spouses/families. Unless one lives in a communist country where the state provides everything, one has to work in order pay for food, clothing, shelter, medical care and the other necessities in life. I’m not sure why having to work is lumped in as a “women’s issue.”

yes. my response was for gudiaali who mentioned how western women are forced to work by their husbands and father and have the ‘burden’ to support themsevles, so the example I gave was how Pakistani women also have to work very hard.

[Jolie]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

There needs to be a balance between ‘no it doesn’t happen in Pakistan’ and ‘yes it happens everywhere, to everyone and all that time in Pakistan’ opinions. No general consensus will ever come out of such polarising arguments. While ignorance is dangerous and insensitive, crass, broad brush, aggressive victimisation of an entire society is equally counter productive and regressive, whether the country in question is India, Pakistan or Afghanistan etc. As someone who had formally studied (and thoroughly believes the ideas of) Women’s Movement and Feminism in the West, I can probably write a thesis explaining why such movement totally failed to take off in the developing countries. The blame falls on both sides.

[Mezhgan]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@bella88

yes. my response was for gudiaali who mentioned how western women are forced to work by their husbands and father and have the ‘burden’ to support themsevles, so the example I gave was how Pakistani women also have to work very hard.

Quite right. In addition to that, learning to become self-sufficient is not a burden. People die, suffer accidents, disability, illness and other things that may cause them to lose their jobs/money/ability to support their families. In such situations, having work experience and the ability to earn a living on one’s own is a blessing, not a burden.

[Jolie]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@PyariCgudia

In fact, right now, guys are more at risk in Pakistan than women. Guys are targeted in target killings - young able bodied men. Young men get kidnapped for ransom, and fetch ransom because their families need them. You don’t hear half as much that women are getting kidnapped. Doctors, mostly men, are being targeted. Political leaders - their sons are getting kidnapped.

You could use the above to say that Pakistani society is a man-hating society.

That’s a very interesting point and I am glad you raised that up. Just yesterday there was a news that 15 year old boy was target killed by police while he was on his way to play cricket. The news of young men getting murdered in cold blood and beaten blue by Feudal kids in ‘revenge attacks’ is pretty much a daily feature in mainstream news. With such terrifying incidents, it’s safe to say parents are no beginning to get equally over protective of their sons as well. whether man hating or woman hating, there’s no denying that there are some seriously deep inequalities and abuse of the system in Pakistan. We must make Pakistan a fair and safe society for every citizen, regaled of their gender, caste and creed.

[shaasavera]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@Jolie

There needs to be a balance between ‘no it doesn’t happen in Pakistan’ and ‘yes it happens everywhere, to everyone and all that time in Pakistan’ opinions. No general consensus will ever come out of such polarising arguments. While ignorance is dangerous and insensitive, crass, broad brush, aggressive victimisation of an entire society is equally counter productive and regressive, whether the country in question is India, Pakistan or Afghanistan etc. As someone who had formally studied (and thoroughly believes the ideas of) Women’s Movement and Feminism in the West, I can probably write a thesis explaining why such movement totally failed to take off in the developing countries. The blame falls on both sides.

Do you think they are completely destined to fail or that the methods employed have not been favourable so far? I think blaming either side does not help but a collective approach needs to be taken.There are some things that work in West and can work in East. There are other things that need to be adapted for the country and region.
Feminism is more individualistic in the West and should probably have a more collectivist approach focusing on communities in the East due to society being more collectivist.

While it’s not good to generalise a whole community it’s also not good to ignore as you mention. If someone does mention aspects of society which need to be improved that individual should not be ignored or said they do not understand because they live overseas. They may do it out of a place of love. I say this regardless of location in the subcontinent.

[shaasavera]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@bella88

india is no better either. women are treated equally bad

I agree with that. It shouldn’t be a competition anyway. When it comes to image and improvement for women in india or subcontinent i’d rather know the hard facts then have it buried. Recently, an Kalki, an indian actress of French background, was part of a campaign of why India needs more feminism. The usual people wrote in comments, who are nationalistic in the wrong sense and fanatic types, said if you don’t like India don’t live here. She lived here her whole life. But i think most people will recognise hard reality and work to change it.

46 People Told Us Why They Want, Need, And Deserve A More Feminist India

Lot of different slogans..but a sample. Once problems are known then only can be fixed at same time generalising can also be counter-productive. Both guys and girls can agree to these issues.

46 people saying why there needs to be improvement even if the stats don’t sound good.

I mention India because it was already mentioned by someone before you and relates to the issues in the blog:)

A LUMS fb page mentions similar comics and empowering messages on Pakistani women.

Facebook

[Deeba1234]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@Mezhgan

Quite right. In addition to that, learning to become self-sufficient is not a burden. People die, suffer accidents, disability, illness and other things that may cause them to lose their jobs/money/ability to support their families. In such situations, having work experience and the ability to earn a living on one’s own is a blessing, not a burden.

I was thinking this.. Not sure why being self-sufficient is seen as a burden or negative thing..

“Those poor women, they need to go out and work.”

Personally I’d much rather be working than totally dependent on the men in my family..

[gudiaali]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@Mezhgan

Quite right. In addition to that, learning to become self-sufficient is not a burden. People die, suffer accidents, disability, illness and other things that may cause them to lose their jobs/money/ability to support their families. In such situations, having work experience and the ability to earn a living on one’s own is a blessing, not a burden.

when i said forced to work by their fathers and husbands i did not mean only west but all over the world.
and yes i see this as a women’s issue when i use the term “forced to work”. meaning its a violation and suppressing a woman’s right if she is forced to work and not given a choice to either work or do not work. and this violation does take place in Pakistan as well as in western countries.

[gudiaali]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@Deeba1234

I was thinking this.. Not sure why being self-sufficient is seen as a burden or negative thing..

“Those poor women, they need to go out and work.”

Personally I’d much rather be working than totally dependent on the men in my family..

Deeba you got my point wrong. i am all for being self sufficient and don’t see that as a burden.
but what i was referring to are cases where women are not given this freedom to chose to not to work if they don’t wish to, and are forced to work and at times not just to take care of themselves but to run the whole house without having male members contributing.

[bella88]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@gudiaali

when i said forced to work by their fathers and husbands i did not mean only west but all over the world.
and yes i see this as a women’s issue when i use the term “forced to work”. meaning its a violation and suppressing a woman’s right if she is forced to work and not given a choice to either work or do not work. and this violation does take place in Pakistan as well as in western countries.

this is actually a completely different topic. everywhere in the world people have to work, men and women. this is not abuse or violation of womens right. it’s not a womans right to demand to be taken care of financially.

[shaasavera]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

@Jolie

There needs to be a balance between ‘no it doesn’t happen in Pakistan’ and ‘yes it happens everywhere, to everyone and all that time in Pakistan’ opinions. No general consensus will ever come out of such polarising arguments. While ignorance is dangerous and insensitive, crass, broad brush, aggressive victimisation of an entire society is equally counter productive and regressive, whether the country in question is India, Pakistan or Afghanistan etc. As someone who had formally studied (and thoroughly believes the ideas of) Women’s Movement and Feminism in the West, I can probably write a thesis explaining why such movement totally failed to take off in the developing countries. The blame falls on both sides.

What are your views of these Pakistani students from LUMS and their display of feminism? Maybe it might seem westernised but like the Indian version above it does raise some good points

Facebook

[shaasavera]

Re: A Pakistani Girl

continued as they match the theme of the blog. People (and the world) should see more of these images of Pakistani students, who are born and grew up in Pakistan, to realise the diversity of views out there as much as in any subcontinental country. I also think they are talking about select examples rather than generalising.

Lot of breaking of stereotypes in the pics above and also informative about issues facing women not just in pakistan but subcontinent