Re: A country's religion..
Anyway I haven't slept the whole night and it is 8:30 AM. I am out. Carry on promoting secularism Aashiq. Come back to Pakistan from Toronto and go in to Politics. Do something instead of talking. Take action. It is very easy to yabber yabber yabber. Good night!
Thats exactly what I'm going to do. I'm sick of living here. But you see education is important and right after I'm done uni I'm heading to Pakistan.
Good Night
Re: A country's religion..
No offence to you but no thanks to the SA union. There was a reason there were BLOODY wars and Pakistan/India were formed.
no offense taken but thank god they are separate countries believe me.....that's all i was sayin
Re: A country's religion..
I am glad you remained civil and did not hurl a personal attack or something at me. That's good for you, I will be really glad if you did do what you are saying and you are successful in your ventures.
Thats exactly what I'm going to do. I'm sick of living here. But you see education is important and right after I'm done uni I'm heading to Pakistan. Good Night
Okay, so as an Indian, this time from your perspective, why is it a good thing that India got separated from Pakistan?
no offense taken but thank god they are separate countries believe me.....that's all i was sayin
Re: A country’s religion..
Thumbing though my uni textbooks Pakistan WAS created based on secular ideologies. Pakistan was not created as a Muslim state, but rather a state for Muslims. See, the problem with a democracy is that the majority rules. In India, the Hindus are the majority and Muslims would always remain the minority. So, question is, how then do you ensure equal opportunity for Muslims? Well, you can introduce a quota system which has limited history of success OR tada! you can create a new independent nation for Muslims where they are the majority and problem solved.
If I got it wrong in school, please do correct me - but with sources please 
and none of those revisionist tales, thank-you-very-much!
Re: A country's religion..
Thumbing though my uni textbooks Pakistan WAS created based on secular ideologies. Pakistan was not created as a Muslim state, but rather a state for Muslims. See, the problem with a democracy is that the majority rules. In India, the Hindus are the majority and Muslims would always remain the minority. So, question is, how then do you ensure equal opportunity for Muslims? Well, you can introduce a quota system which has limited history of success OR tada! you can create a new independent nation for Muslims where they are the majority and problem solved.
If I got it wrong in school, please do correct me - but with sources please :@: and none of those revisionist tales, thank-you-very-much!
you are right .. but i believe this will start another discussion here.
Re: A country's religion..
This thread is yet another reminder for me to stay away from all political and religious discussions on this site. Really burns my bollocks to see some of the people who know absolute jack about the subjects posting pages and pages of arguments just to satisfy their bruised rusty excuse for intellect.
Re: A country's religion..
This thread is yet another reminder for me to stay away from all political and religious discussions on this site. Really burns my bollocks to see some of the people who know absolute jack about the subjects posting pages and pages of arguments just to satisfy their bruised rusty excuse for intellect.
awaz ko dabana nahin chahiyay meray doost. just kehnay do
Re: A country's religion..
Um, it's pretty clear Pakistan was created on secular ideology since the Quaid himself wasn't all that religious either. Saying Pakistan was meant to be ruled by mullahs is a outright betrayal of our Founding Father.
Back to the topic, I think the current global order will justify the demands for secularism. America, the first country to leave behind religion quickly overtook the much more developed Europe and is currently on top of the world. Meanwhile, "religious" countries like Saudi Arabia must bow to their American masters...
Re: A country’s religion..
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Dubaiwali http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png
Anyway I haven’t slept the whole night and it is 8:30 AM. I am out. Carry on promoting secularism Aashiq. Come back to Pakistan from Toronto and go in to Politics. Do something instead of talking. Take action. It is very easy to yabber yabber yabber. Good night!
meri bahan nay buhat achi baat kehi
do something instead of talking …aap kay mohn may ghee shakar
yes it is time of action
Re: A country's religion..
A question of logic. Yes Quaid-e-Azam wanted a secular nation, but he used religion as the means to create this separate nation. Anybody notice the disconnect between those two ideals. 1. You tell people you as Muslims deserve a separate homeland to practice our faith freely and fairly. Then people say that but wait lets be Secular. Separation of church and state. See the beauty of that is, we don't have churches :D
Re: A country's religion..
Quaid E Azam indeed used religon as a tool, but I believe he also showed the British how it would be in their intrests to split the sub continent. The WWII had ended in 1945 and by 1947, the Cold War had begun. The region was already under world scrutiny.
Think about it. The British only divided India cos it was in their interests. They wouldnt' care if Muslimes got rights or not, they were leaving anyways.
Re: A country's religion..
Not to go into discussions of what Quaid's intent was in creating Pakistan. All I know is , when I speak to my elders who experienced Independence , they say , we wanted a motherland that would let us safely be good muslims and practice Islam.
My original question wasnt regards shariah law to be implemented ... It was more about putting a system in place to stop more confusion about Islam in Pakistani society and culture.
The wordly laws , can be implemented and are followed out of fear. We dont do chori because we know we will get locked up etc .. fear of immediate punishment. and yes , these laws are forcefully implemented on us , we must follow them whether we like them or not.
But since we dont want forced implemented in Pakistan, the only other way and the better way is to focus on religion. Because a religion motivates an individual emotionally and physically to adhere to a certain ideology. Once that motivation comes in us , no outer force can convince us to break our code of conduct.
Example: we know how prophet PBUH shunned lying , we know the punishment of it in not just the world but the world here after. If as a muslim my values teach me to keep the gunah and its punishment in mind ... I will not lie no matter what comes my way.
and that was my question, without going into the complications of religion , if the government creates and implements basic laws to control the religious teachings and strictly creates a uniform Islamic syllabus with specially selected Islamic teachers and then controls the hiring and firing of them ... it will cause a character revolution over time.
Similar to how as students we are taught timekeeping, when we break that , we get punished... at the end of schooling , whether we like it or not , time keeping become a natural to us majority of us.
Re: A country's religion..
I have a question ..
There is one Quran, one Sunnah. Classifications of Islam have come in over the years ( example, sunni, shia, ahmadi, wahabi etc etc ) , but minus those classifications, religion : Islam is one and catering to the muslims as a united ummah.
*Based on that fact, should a country like Pakistan , or any other muslim country , have strict guidelines to adhere to as a nation? guidelines that are Lawfully enforced. Should a country have its strong , cut out written basic religion, sans any complications? *
The reason I ask , lately I have been wondering if Pakistan is confused about Islam. Do we actually know what our basic religion is? its values are? Clearly we are confused , otherwise we wouldnt have so much biddah , superstitions, radicalization in Paksitan. Molvi's are badnaam , average pakistani is far from religious values ...
But if we have a standard basic religion ( shariah Law) in place with strict legal implications, the religion that molvi's will teach in madrasss/mosques/homes/ schools , will be scrutinized and held accountable for giving out wrong teachings. Eventually this will raise alot more unified awareness of the basic islamic values in the janta ... which might also become a step stone to character revolution in the nation. Example , more awareness of bribery punishments in Islam, Awareness of Islamic implications for ignoring hakook ibad etc ...
I hope i am making sense .. I really feel right now , hardly anyone knows what the basic religion is ... this includes the top shariah scholars and the genral janta.
CB, let's get some facts straight before we continue? There are sects and then there are people who wish to impersonate as Muslims. Let's not be politically correct if you want to solve the problems, be straight up. If people want to be PC about everything, they should just stay with what they have now and not make matters worse. Notice I didn't mention any names, that's how much PC I am, mods be thankful.
Pakistan is not confused about Islam, they are misled by secular punks sitting at the top of the food chain and the illiterate 'scholars' sitting at your local masjid. Other than those two problems, the people of Pakistan are for the most part ignorant. They still cling on to their Hindu customs, which by browsing this website full of educated Pakistanis living abroad is apparent. Jahil qaum not entirely, ignorant yes.
The top sharia scholars know what Islam is, it is us who don't want to listen to those scholars because truth is bitter for us, because we don't like scholars. We are comfortable with what we do. We are ignorant. We chose to stay ignorant. We don't want sharia in our lives.
--
To those secular coconuts, jinnah is dead. Pakistan is majority Muslim so deal with it. Pakistan may have been founded as a secular state, maybe jinnah did have that vision of a secular state but now he's dead, his ideas no longer matter, move on. He's crying in his grave, who knows maybe because of his people or because of his sins? Allah knows if he's being punished. Maybe his decision of joining this movement was right or wrong but deal with what you have now, a land with majority muslim who want Islam as a ruling religion in all matters. No secular crap.
and I know I'm going to receive heat on this; if muslims stayed, we would have power, why you do say we would be a minority?! jeez
Re: A country's religion..
Okay, in no particular order, some comments/questions:
The US was founded on principles of secularism BUT, the constitution is shaped by the Judeo-Christian values of the founding fathers. Case in point - gay marriage. So while the Church does not run the government, the religious values of the state leaders and the majority do impact the government laws and public policy. Why then, can the same concept of government not be implemented and be effective in Pakistan? The state is secular, but the values that shape the public policy and laws of the land are framed by Islamic values?
Going back to a question I posed before - has Shariah law been codified and if Shariah law is to be the arbiter of justice should there not be a single version? Why then is the interpretation and application of Shariah law different from one jurisdiction to another? AND doesn't that difference then create questions of authenticity in the source of Shariah law and the legitimacy of it's applicability?
Re: A country's religion..
Sehrysh , you do have a valid point . Especially the second para.
Clearly our issue is that we dont even have one unified Shariah Law. Its versions confuse us even more. Which is why , I am personally not in the favour of implementing SL ( shariah law ) full force in Pakistan. I think it will fail miserably due to the characteristics of our nation.
However, what we need is baby steps. Why cant be break Islamic law in levels and implement it in baby steps?
For example, we have already established that the Scholars are on one extreme , the nation is on the other. Both can never be on the same page, hence implementation and acceptance will fail.
So what we need to do is, implement level 1, that may hold basic human values that affect muslims at grass root levels in their day to day lives , issues like , lying, corruption, fraud , cleanliness , public services etc ... Over the years, as the basics settle in , we bring on Level 2, which will hold more complex issues of our society , example : murder / adultery etc ... and hence forth.
Re: A country's religion..
Okay, in no particular order, some comments/questions:
The US was founded on principles of secularism BUT, the constitution is shaped by the Judeo-Christian values of the founding fathers. Case in point - gay marriage. So while the Church does not run the government, the religious values of the state leaders and the majority do impact the government laws and public policy. Why then, can the same concept of government not be implemented and be effective in Pakistan? The state is secular, but the values that shape the public policy and laws of the land are framed by Islamic values?
Going back to a question I posed before - has Shariah law been codified and if Shariah law is to be the arbiter of justice should there not be a single version? Why then is the interpretation and application of Shariah law different from one jurisdiction to another? AND doesn't that difference then create questions of authenticity in the source of Shariah law and the legitimacy of it's applicability?
Unlike Pakistan, USA is not 95% majority Muslim state or xtian for that matter is it?
Two completely different countries and people. Americans don't want religion period. Pakistanis do. Simple.
And as for the vast difference between sharia x, y, z - the least that can be implemented are the laws agreed to by all schools of thought.
Re: A country's religion..
And as for the vast difference between sharia x, y, z - the least that can be implemented are the laws agreed to by all schools of thought.
Agreed ... specially on the very very basic values of Islam.
Re: A country's religion..
Unlike Pakistan, USA is not 95% majority Muslim state or xtian for that matter is it?
Two completely different countries and people. Americans don't want religion period. Pakistanis do. Simple.
When the US was founded, it was primarily a Christian nation, though much like Pakistan now, had its own sects, Methodists, Protestants, Lutherans, Catholics.
And as for the vast difference between sharia x, y, z - the least that can be implemented are the laws agreed to by all schools of thought.
Is there a unified voice amongst the different schools of thought on matters of Islamic jurisprudence? And don't we as Pakistanis thrive on conflict! Don't we disagree just for the sake of disagreeing?
Re: A country's religion..
Is there a unified voice amongst the different schools of thought on matters of Islamic jurisprudence?** And don't we as Pakistanis thrive on conflict**! Don't we disagree just for the sake of disagreeing?
Don't know, we should ask the Pakistanis living there if they thrive on conflict or not.
Difference of opinion is what we should thrive on, I guess.
Re: A country's religion..
Wanna tell me why there are terrorists in Pakistan in the first place? Let's look at secular countries and then Islamic republics, it's pretty easy to tell which one is advancing. You should read on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, his secularist views changed Turkey forever. In an islamic Republic there is no room for minority religions and human rights. Secularism will only lift Pakistan to better heights. Where has this Islamic State gotten us? . My Ahmadi,Hindu,Sikh,Christian,Jewish and Parsi brothers and sisters in Pakistan cannot even live a free life due to this great Islamic republic we have.I'm only following Quaid-e-Azam's visions
LOL what's the difference between Zardari and Atakafir? Both sellouts. Both looted. One removed Islam from the land, the other doing the same. Why not make Zardari your new Atakafir hero? Then all you secular coconuts can ride your unicorns in the utopia you dream of all day long.