Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
^ we differ in how much benefit of doubt we are prepared to repose on the gangs. I repose VERY LITTLE ben of doubt for these because a predominant (>90%) of crimes committed by gangs is NOT against rich people but 1) against the poor in poor neighborhood, 2) against drug addicts and intermediaries, 3)against other gangs and 4) against law enforcement and intermediaries. I am sure you have heard of 'black on black' crime is one of the highest.
Not that it is any better if gangs commit crimes of the rich or other races.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
^ we differ in how much benefit of doubt we are prepared to repose on the gangs. I repose VERY LITTLE ben of doubt for these because a predominant (>90%) of crimes committed by gangs is NOT against rich people but 1) against the poor in poor neighborhood, 2) against drug addicts and intermediaries, 3)against other gangs and 4) against law enforcement and intermediaries. I am sure you have heard of 'black on black' crime is one of the highest.
Not that it is any better if gangs commit crimes of the rich or other races.
I think there war is with society in general. They see themselves as righting a wrong, and in doing so, no one can stand in their way, be it the rich or the poor. More often its the poor who become the impediment because the poor are nearest in proximity. Other poor people, other gang members, are their direct competition, and are part of the society keeping them down.. So they are fair game. The Rich are outside their league and their reach, but they wouldnt hesitate to screw them over as well if they could.
Invariably its the poor who suffer most in any conflict. Most of the Taliban too are from poor backgrounds, as are their victims.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
I'm sure what you say is true in some cases but how do you distinguish between crooks and 'victims of social ills'? Ultimately it is possible to find some justification for every crime, but does not solve the problem. That is why the solution cannot always be social remediation nor can it be always punishment. It is a mix of the two.
I don't know much about the taleban and their justification for terrorism. But find it hard to extend whatever that justificationmay be, to muslim lads born and brought up in UK who believe and are led to believe they are serving the cause of their religion by bombing subways and killing innocent commuters
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
I'm sure what you say is true in some cases but how do you distinguish between crooks and 'victims of social ills'? Ultimately it is possible to find some justification for every crime, but does not solve the problem. That is why the solution cannot always be social remediation nor can it be always punishment. It is a mix of the two.
I don't know much about the taleban and their justification for terrorism. But find it hard to extend whatever that justificationmay be, to muslim lads born and brought up in UK who believe and are led to believe they are serving the cause of their religion by bombing subways and killing innocent commuters
You dont differentiate... Every crook is a victim on some level as well, but that is no excuse for being a criminal. I think its an injustice that the rich can get away with murder, but I cant even go to the emergency room for something minor, for not more then 1 hour without getting stuck with a bill for 2000 dollars... But that doesnt mean I go out and mug some guy driving a BMW.
Islam is a convenient excuse. Like the Taliban, and like the inner city kids in the US, the thought of being something bigger then oneself is very appealing. These guys have no voice, they are weak. In the US they are pushed around and looked down upon, in the UK its a similar situation, young lads who feel they have no purpose in life and are weak, same with the madrassa student in Pakistan. The Taliban, Al Qaeda, and even the Bloods and Crips give them a vioce, it gives them purpose, and strength. Suddenly they have strength and a voice.
Ultimately, the goals of these groups are very different, their modis operanndi is very different, but they all stem from the same disillusioned source.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
but we have to differentiate between real victims and real crooks. Otherwise we run the risk of punishing the meek (if the hangemall school have their way) ir rewarding wanton crime (if the 'society is to blame' crowd have their way).
But this should not be a rich vs poor argument. Crooks and victims exist both in the rich and poor groups. Say I worked hard, took risks and became rich - why would you deny me the fruits of my labor?
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
The Bangladeshi, like the rest was pushed by the FBI. Since 9/11 you will not find a case of domestic terrorism in the USA by Muslims except triggered by the FBI.
Why was their car bugged? (didn't bother to read article)
Was it a case of entrapment too?
They were collecting charity pretending they were from the NGO Muslim Aid.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B’ham arrested for terror plot
Diff topic but to answer your question, I spent more than half of my life in USA, BY MY CHOICE. Today whatever I have, my family has - and that includes everything, the money, the peace of mind, the security, the ability to help others - a lot of it I got from this country, I feel very loyal to this country because it let me live a life of decent human being.
Now I know where my comment would lead to. I am ready to answer that question also if needed.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
You posted "All these terror suspects come from salafi background. You'll never find brelvis or sufis even thinking about such criminal acts regardless of their financial status. So I think it's a combination of financial background and affiliation with a radical ideology."
I was just giving you giving at least one example of how Brelvis also are involved in such criminal acts. They may not be as involved as the others but still some involvement.
and the whole lot of Pakistani lawyers showered him with flowers. How is that even relevant to what's being discussed here?
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
Actually most Pakistanis have turned to Ghetto-ization rather than extremism. Out of the the million plus Pakistanis here in the UK less than 1% are involved in extremism. However, a much larger amount associates only with each other forgetting when they go to apply to a job they will come across all others and wont know how to relate to them. A lot of British born Pakistanis have become criminalised - drug dealing, physical assaults, insurance fraud to name but a few. A lot of them think they are black and that rap is somehow a part of their culture. They hang about in gangs/groups and have bad relations with other ethnics is Indian, Bangladeshi, West Indians, English. Sadly large areas in the north-west of England have become no-go areas because of thugs of Pakistani origin.
This seems to be the most accurate theory. You have similar issues among blacks and hispanic's in the US. I think they call Ghetto-ization. In America they turn to gangs, in the UK they turn to relgious extremism.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
I was just giving you giving at least one example of how Brelvis also are involved in such criminal acts. They may not be as involved as the others but still some involvement.
I was referring to blowing yourself up.
Brelvis have some elements of jahliyat in them but that's not backed up by a jihadi mentality.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B’ham arrested for terror plot
Not denying at all. Very recently we had Faisal Shahzad and then last month Quazi Mohammad Rezwanul Ahsan Nafis who tried to blow up Times Square and Federal Reserve respectively. What a bunch of jack asses :smack:
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
Diff topic but to answer your question, I spent more than half of my life in USA, BY MY CHOICE. Today whatever I have, my family has - and that includes everything, the money, the peace of mind, the security, the ability to help others - a lot of it I got from this country, I feel very loyal to this country because it let me live a life of decent human being.
Now I know where my comment would lead to. I am ready to answer that question also if needed.
Peace TLK
Oh no further questions ... Just as long as the loyalty doesn't get translated to blind acceptance and to serve the country does not necessarily mean agreeing with your Administration's decisions ... Then I guess that is the least we can do ... But for others ....du'a ...
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
Peace TLK
Oh no further questions ... Just as long as the loyalty doesn't get translated to blind acceptance and to serve the country does not necessarily mean agreeing with your Administration's decisions ... Then I guess that the least we can do for others .... As well as du'a ...
Even a 3 generations American does not agree to all the decisions of administration all the times.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
There seems to be something genuinely off about the Pakistani youth in England compared to the US. Why do English Pakistani youth so often get entangled in such things, yet we have not had similar problems among Pakistanis here in the US, at least not among those who grew up here. What is the difference? This is at least the third time im hearing of British Pakistanis getting caught this way, with a bug in their car.
it's not really a mystery. the US and UK immigrant profiles are very different and visa standards have been much, much lower in the UK. on average, immigrants to the US are far more educated and socioeconomically well-off than their UK counterparts. of all groups, the difference is most pronounced with pakistanis. in the UK the pakistani population is dominated by the labor class with a huge proportion literally being villagers from mirpur. pakistanis in the US are usually educated...grad students, engineers, etc.
in the US they are somewhat near the top of the socioeconomic distribution. in the UK they are at the absolute bottom. obviously they won't have equal inclination towards crime/terrorism.
